tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC January 28, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PST
of what is appropriate for president of the united states. >> we do need to define that. i do wonder how the president and his supporters and right wing media will take that. >> fair question. >> and use to it their advantage to help hang on to the support that the president has or might have in the future. ken, gabe, susan, ayesha, thank you, guys, all. that will do it for us. we will be a back tomorrow with more "mtp daily." "the beat with ari melber" starting right now. >> this is the first week to begin with the government open. trump caving on the ball, blowing through $11 billion, and why it matter fosser the future of this trump/pelosi era. but we begin with this picture, indicted former trump aide roger stone posting this picture today of him traveling for his mueller court appearance tomorrow. and you can see the caption, "and so it begins." here is how that actual scene looked today. this is real footage we just got. stone arriving in arlington,
virginia, swamped by different cameras, bantering, chatting, generally stepping into a circus-like atmosphere that appears honestly comfortable for a self-declared dirty trick center and messaging guru like roger stone. he looked pretty comfortable this weekend. he did a range of press appearances. and tonight the nation knows a lot more than it knew when the fbi agents first raided stone's home on friday. because unlike most defendant, roger stone is talking. >> are you willing to cut a deal with mueller to avoid the case going to trial? >> i don't answer hypothetical questions. >> i will not fold. i will not bend. >> any chance you'll cooperate with special counsel robert mueller if he asks? >> this was an egregious overreach by mr. mueller. >> these are gestapo tactics. >> i don't think this is the end by any means of, you know, or reaching the end of the mueller investigation. i think there is a lot more to come. >> we're going to see in short order that roger stone is not
the only one that lied to congress. >> in a very real, measurable sense, the mueller probe intensified on friday. this was mueller's first indictment of a major trump figure related to those e-mails that russia stole. and while most trump aides only connect with trump around the 2016 campaign you see there the number of years they knew him, michael cohen much higher at 13 years. but it's roger stone who comes in as the longest serving trump adviser by far. they've connected for decades. now stone is citing that deep history and loyalty in an unusual round of interviews since friday. he's been walking a line, blasting the indictment as political while keeping the door open to cooperation. >> any chance you'll cooperate with special counsel robert mueller if he asks? >> you know, that's a question i would have to -- i'd have to determine after my attorneys have some discussion. if there is wrongdoing by other
people in the campaign, that i know about, which i know of none, but if there is, i would certainly testify honestly. >> testifying honestly in cooperation with mueller, that would be something. and in fairness, that is something that mr. stone as a defendant would consider and choose to do. he doesn't need to announce it on television. but as we report this out, note that what you just heard after his indictment is at least a shift in nuance from his past claims. >> there's no circumstances under which i would testify against the president. >> there is no circumstance in which i intend to be pressured in order to testify against the president. >> there is no circumstance under which i would testify against the president because i'd have to bear false witness against him. >> i would predict that they want me to bear false witness against the president. i'm just telling you, that's something that i'm not going to be pressured into doing it. >> let's get right into it. i'm joined by david corn, he has
a new piece how roger stone did get involved in russia's attack during the 2016 election. and former prosecutor john flannery. >> hi. >> david, roger stone is someone that you and many washington reporters and myself have interacted with as a source for a long time. what do you think is the significance of the way he is. cog out here playing big, bold, loud defense? and is this, as you view it, the end of the charges against him? >> well, roger stone is a proven liar. he said during the campaign he was in direct contact with giuliani abojul julian assange after. i don't think the you can take his word on anything. he is a conspiracy theorist. he says lbj killed jfk. for him, it's all a show. for years he has said with pride, with pride that his
personal mantra is admit nothing, deny everything. so whatever he is coming out and saying on these shows and in front of his nice ft. lauderdale home is really in a lot of ways irrelevant. i know we should cover it and talk about it, but there is no credence i think you can give to any statement that roger stone makes. >> well, i think you may be conflating relevance and credibility, which your co-counsel here knows are two very different concepts. >> i'm the nonlawyer here, yes. >> i'm not trying to give you a hard time here. you're all over the story. but david, i think the whole point is just as michael cohen lying in public or lying on television was a part of the story and his lying to congress was a chargeable offense, mueller seems to be bearing down on precisely the question of whether this was high jinks and campaign exaggeration or lies. >> right. >> which are not usually charged or something more, david. >> well, i do think that mueller
makes a very strong argument here that his lie to congress that he is being charged for, roger stone, is material, is significant, is important. his lie people should remember was designed to cover up the type of interaction he was trying to have with wikileaks during the 2016 campaign. he lied about his intermediary with wikileaks. and the big question which the indictment does not answer is why would he do that. for what reason -- >> bingo. >> -- that it was jerome corsi on your show and came up with a cover story. we don't know why roger did that. >> bingo. that is the big question, john, there is indications of an answer? >> so i think there is certainly an indication of an answer here. i mean, the way they lay out this false statement obstruction indictment at the beginning is to show that he -- that is our boy stone was on notice that all
this information was out there, that these were purloined digital black bag jobs on the dnc, the dccc, and on podesta. so all of that was known when he was doing what he was doing. most other defendants have an epiphany when they're indicted and think about cooperating. but stone has been delusional so long and his trickster livelihood that i don't think we can rely on anything he says about cooperating. basically, he can say i will cooperate, but i will only tell the truth. this is a guy who doesn't tell the truth. paragraph 12 is the connection, the conspiracy we're talking about. paragraph 12. i have the thing in front of me. 35. and following. basically, they lay out the connection was the campaign by which he is doing what he is doing that he lied about. and there are a lot of people that say where is the conspiracy? where is the collusion? i think people have spent so much time looking at this, they
can't believe when they have the information of the conspiracy that i think is found in the details in this indictment of stone. >> now i feel like i'm in your class. >> sure. >> it's a good instructor to have from what i can tell from the past times we've learned from you. you're talking page 12, paragraph 23, the list of all the specific ways they sought help. >> yeah. >> this is very interesting. what jumps out here again, david, the specificity. it's not oh, i heard something wikileaks broadly, dramatic, gossip. >> right. >> which sources and political reporters who do talk about. it is something much more specific that looks like what they call stone's efforts to get very specific information that could help trump. david? >> and the indictment raises the notion that senior levels of the trump campaign have directed stone or asked stone to do this. so i proceed under the assumption that mueller knows
everything. he is kind of all knowing in a lot of ways. maybe he doesn't know all the details, and maybe he'll get more details from all the material that was seized in the raid when they arrested roger stone. but he knows who these people are at the top of the trump campaign that were directing roger to try to reach out to wikileaks. we don't know. so it's hard for us to evaluate just how serious that is and whether that leads to a conspiracy charge of some type or not. but mueller knows, and i assume, i hope that one day, hopefully the justice department won't get in the way of this, we the american people will find out too who was including w colludi stone. >> you mention matt whitaker speaking about this today. i want to be clear with viewers, i'm about to play something that is brand-new. it doesn't necessarily tell you where mueller is. it just tells you where matt whitaker would like mueller to be at. with that said, this is still the acting attorney general of the united states.
take a listen. >> i've been fully briefed on the investigation, and i look forward to director mueller delivering the final report. i am comfortable that the decisions that were made are going to be is reviewed either through the various means we have. but right now i think the investigation is i think close to being completed, and i hope that we can get the report from director mueller as soon as -- as possible. >> john, your view of those statements late today coming from the acting attorney general. >> well, the corn flannery committee met in the green room before we came on the air. we decided that you don't conduct the search of roger stone's home with all of that information there that probably has to be decrypted and analyzed, and then give a report in february. so i don't think that's going to happen quickly. also, you got to wonder about matt whitaker. i wonder if he was involved in the buzz kill or the buzzfeed thing. that thing i found distressing that they thought for the first
time while we're shifting attorneys general that they had to say anything about this investigation. so i think matt whitaker is a likable guy and not to be relied on to tell us where mueller is in his investigation. >> look, i appreciate a pun as much as the next guy. we're not sure it was buzz kill if they were doing what they thought was the responsible act to correct a misperception, though as always, with open probes, we just don't know the entire picture. the committee of corn and flannery, we always like seeing you. i'm going get to some other guests. thanks to both of you. i'm bringing two mr. guests into the skfgs. here is the context. the white house actually didn't rule out a pardon for roger stone. on friday, stone did say, though, he never discussed his testimony with donald trump. >> the allegations as far as i can tell from reading it is that you lied to this congressional committee. have you spoken to the president about this? >> i have not. when the president answered the
written interrogatories, he correctly and honestly said roger stone and i never discussed this, and we never did. >> that may be true. but just think, how does roger stone know what donald trump told mueller in those written interrogatories if he hasn't even discussed wit donald trump or his team, as he just claimed. yesterday roger stone had this to say about conversations with trump. >> i'd also testify honestly about any other matter, including any communications with the president. it's true that we spoke on the phone. but those communications are political in nature. they're benign, and there is certainly no conspiracy with russia. >> i turn to mara gay and shelby holiday, who has been all over the story for "the wall street journal," including reporting on messages that mr. stone sent, i read them in some of your reporting and now read them in the indictment as what mueller says is evidence for witness tampering. thanks to both of you for being
here. take it away, having followed the story what is important now. >> i talked to legal experts throughout the day. if roger stone goes and pleads not guilty, it's going to be really hard to face these charges in a trial because you have written evidence. we have that written testimony that he sent to the house committee. and if you recall, he was recalling for his testimony to be public. he really wanted to testify openly. ooips . it may be because he wanted to send a signal to other possible witnesses in probe. >> we have the debate about public and private. i don't think you can deduce anything. james comey said he didn't wand his testimony public because he didn't want it mischaracterized. you're saying that might have been an elicit reason to match stories in public. >> it may have been. look at what he wrote in his written testimony. for example, he said he had only asked randy credico to confirm that assange was going to release information about hillary clinton. but we reported months ago he had actually asked randy credico to go find certain e-mails from
assange that would be exposing her in this big benghazi plot. so what he wrote in that system is provably false when you look at some of his e-mails and text messages. he is out there saying that he is a human. he forgot. he's not perfect. and some of these text messages escaped him. but when you look at the volume of the text messages, as well as some of the messages he ex-changed with jerome corsi, who you've had on this show, to plant stories about randy credico, that looks like that points to intent. not only to tell a lie about your back channel, but to plant stories about him as well. >> well, that's an extremely important point shelby is making. it also points to how specific his messages are. that's out there for the public to read. anyone can read the indictment, and it's embarrassing. but the thing that strikes me about roger stone is he's the perfect example of the kind of hubris with which trump and his aides have operated. i actually wrote a story back when i was at "the wall street journal" a couple of years ago,
almost two years to day before roger stone was arrested last week. and it was about signal, which is an encrypted messaging app. and, you know, i interviewed roger stone for that piece, because he is on the sibnal app, or was. and i didn't even ask him about russians at the time, but he volunteered this on the record glib kind of joking message about how he doesn't -- by the way, he said, no, i have not communicated with russians on signal. the kind of hubris that it takes i think to discuss things like that openly, given what we believe or what bob mueller believes he was up to is extremely striking. eventually, you know, the public persona is going to clash with what happens in court, and so i just think it's a moment of inflection. and we'll see. look, innocent until proven guilty. >> right. we always emphasize that. you're referring to the role mr.
stone plays. and i think viewer, some viewers remember that from the rules he's played in decades past. then there is the trump version of it. if you're saying, gosh, it feels like we're at a circus, it's because, well, we bought a circus ticket and there are elephants everywhere, and you have animal cruelty concerns as well, elephants or randy credico's dog, take your pick. that's what "saturday night live" was spoofing and stone responding to this on his emethod of choice, which is instagram. yes, the joke side and the question how much of it is just a circus joke, or was it a kind of ridiculous cover for very real attempts to get a foreign power's help to take out aspects of hillary clinton's candidacy. here was "snl" on this weekend. >> what a fun couple of days. i'm loving the ride. go, nixon! >> mr. stone, you had a harrowing past 36 hours. your home was raided. you were arrested and charged with seven felony count,
including lying to congress. >> it was four counts. >> the indictment says seven. >> okay, i'm lying. >> you can't make this up. and i think actually for anyone who has worked for a tabloid in new york city, as i have, this is the only way that you can kind of believe what's in front of your eyes, because you know that truth is always stranger than fiction. and anyone who has covered donald trump or any of his crony cronies for longer than five years has recognized roger stone as one of the many characters, colorful characters kind of in his orbit. and this is -- they're all provocateurs. this is what they do. it's theater. the question is were they undermining our democracy as you said behind it. >> and i would also just point out, speaking of jokes, that's a defense that roger stone often gives. he was dining with assange? oh, it was a joke. i told randy credico to plead
the fifth? oh, that was a joke. >> that's what i thought was striking. in the way mueller quoted the text, the dog text; the movie reference, we're taking this serious as a heart attack. bob mueller is not finding those to be funny at this point. that's what we know from the indictment. amara and shelby, thanks to both of you. coming up, a big shake-up on late-breaking news on michael cohen's legal team. house intelligence committee member joins me, coming up. also, my live interview as promised with a key mueller witness, a critical player against stone. that's right here on "the beat." you won't see it anywhere else tonight. and the actual cost of donald trump's lies and falsehoods in the shutdown, a blunder so epic, his supporters are crying foul. >> i'm telling you how to get trump. he promised something for 18 months and he liked it. that's how you get trump. >> he just reversed himself. that's a victory for nancy pelosi. she has just whipped the president of the united states.
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donald trump. all this comes as cohen is hiring two new lawyers. now remember, he has formally admitted that he lied to the intelligence committee, and we've heard from some members of that committee saying there could be other liars that may get charged. i'm joined now by congressman mike quigley who serves on the intelligence committee. congressman, what is the significance of this news of viewers who have been following this know there was talk about cohen publicly testifying. it was his allegations that he was threatened by donald trump. now it's private testimony. at a baseline level, is trump getting what he wants out of this? >> i don't think so. i think in the end it would serve the american public well to hear mr. cohen testify. after all, he was the person who brought everything together, the political, the financial side, the personal side of the man they know to be president. and here he has said he had chose darkness over light. this is his opportunity to shed some light on what actually took place. so i --
>> sir, let me push you on that. and i think a lot of people understand why this is so important. but you talk about light. the democrats made a big deal out of having public testimony. the democrats sent a letter saying the president may be committing a crime by tampering with michael cohen. and now tonight we're not hearing about light for the american public. we're hearing about a dark hearing. >> really both are possible. i think what's going to happen, mr. cohen will be back before congress many times. the fact is under the concerns he has, he is going to begin in closed testimony. and remember, much of what he can share is classified information that he couldn't talk about at a public hearing. i am all for a public meeting in which mr. cohen can testify. i think he's probably getting past and dealing with the concerns, the safety concerns i think he legitimately feels. i don't think we have to preclude one or the other. i have no problems starting with the fact that we're dealing with classified material. >> yes, sir. i think that makes a lot of
sense. let me make sure i'm layering you right. are you saying this could be a prelude to michael cohen testifying in public before he reports to his prison term? >> i don't know the whens. i certainly encourage them to do that. they're pushing against a lot of forces here. and i think the most extraordinary one is the fear that mr. cohen's family feels, which is beyond comprehension that it's coming from the white house. so i wouldn't -- i wouldn't tell the american public you're not going to hear much from mr. cohen. i am confident he will testify in an open hearing. i think he'll begin with this closed hearing that is critical information about how finances worked and how money was funneled through the trump organization and the trump campaign. the possibilities of moneylaundering, the role of deutsche bank. it's critical stuff. i don't think we'll get him in an open hearing. well need both. >> i take you're point of all of, that and that some of it might be better that way. i understand we wanted to press on that. let me put on the screen for you
and our viewers the number of people who have been before the committee. there have been at least two people who criminally lied to the committee there are a lot of folks on this list. some of them aren't seen necessarily in that light such as lewandowski, caputo, and others who contest they were fully truthful. what do you think is important as we move forward, and do you agree with your colleague's assessment that two or more people may have misled the committee? >> fell, first, they're absolutely right. the fact of the matter is we had no one under subpoena. so erik prince for example just refused to answer certain questions, my question in particular. and prince's testimony was made public. we didnread it on its face. it raises serious questions. somebody else is lying. >> so you're saying mr. prince
is one of those at least two individuals? >> in my mind, i have reasonable belief that mr. prince was not completely candid with the committee. i also believe if as we learned about the trump tower moscow discussions, that the president's spokesman's acknowledged that they went well into the campaign season, something that don jr. said in published senate testimony was not the case. >> do you think he knew that and that it was false at the time? >> look, what i'm suggesting is that not everybody can be telling the truth here, and there is reasonable suspicion that at least the two i mentioned should be brought back for further questioning. >> that's fascinate, since your committee has the legal subpoena power to do that. congressman, a lot of developments tonight. i really appreciate you taking the questions, sir. >> any time. thank you. >> congressman mike quigley from the intelligence committee. we're going to turn now to donald trump's lies and falsehoods backfiring.
his supporters angry. nancy pelosi taking a victory lap. i'm going get into why this matters in a special report when we're back in just 30 seconds. and after work. he does it all with dr. scholl's. only dr. scholl's has massaging gel insoles that provide all-day comfort. to keep him feeling more energized. dr. scholl's. born to move. our grandparents checked zero times a day. times change. eyes haven't. that's why there's ocuvite. screen light... sunlight... longer hours... eyes today are stressed. but ocuvite has vital nutrients... ...to help protect them. ocuvite. eye nutrition for today. from a wall to a cave that is the core story of the new trump/pelosi era, because as you know, president trump picked the largest battle of his presidency over the wall and shutdown against a new speaker, and he completely caved on friday at a
cost we can tell you tonight to the economy that is roughly double what trump requested for the wall in the first place. now trump's surrender here bigger than a simple political failure. we are in of course month until one of trump governing while another party has power in congress. and trump's failed approach to this shutdown i think has revealed some of the costs of his hyperbole, false claims, the inflated threat, and yes, the documented lies. and this may concern trump's own supporters. it may also show the democrats' keys to beating him now that they have the house. that brings us to tonight's "beat" special report. trump has made 8,000 false statements or lies since taking the office, a record according to "the washington post." we want to break this down into two categories. one, trump's blatant lies about facts, about things we know that happened, but also, two, trump's false statements about what he will do, like whether he would cave on the wall, which he did. the first category of lies are
well-known. they are vintage trump. >> republicans passed the biggest tax cut and reform in history. >> we got tax cuts, biggest tax cuts in the history of our country. >> that's false. trump was on notice about it at the time. and we go go through many of those examples. eight thousand if you want, but we already know about them. tonight i want to focus on the falsehoods from trump about what he will do as president. the ridiculous pledges, the extreme threat, the broken promises, these hyped negotiation offers. because there are people who argue cynically that those lies will work because his supporters accept them and his reality no matter what. but actually, some of these lies and what i'm calling category two right now, this month, they are blowing up in trump's face. >> how long are you willing to keep the government shut down? >> as long as it takes. >> on day 35 of the shutdown,
president trump in retreat, deferring his fight for a border wall. >> now the easy solution is for me to call a national emergency. i can do that very quickly. >> i'm not looking to call a national emergency. this is so simple, i shouldn't have to. >> i am proud to shut down the government for border security. i will take the mantle. i will be the one to shut it down. >> i am supervisor proud to announce today we have found a deal. >> it was the same deal he could have taken on day one. now these claims didn't fool a lot of people. they didn't fool nancy pelosi. they didn't fool the majority of americans. they didn't even fool trump's most fervent supporters in the right wing press. polling shows most americans did oppose trump on the shutdown. and then the immediate members of his own confident base, they weren't fooled by friday's
announcement. blasting trump as a, quote, wimp for caving and admitting he broke his wall promise. >> crazy that i expect the president to keep the promise he made every day for 18 months. >> you're finding out he is a lying con man. what was your first clue? >> okay, i'm a very stupid girl. fine. >> some conservatives on fox news say it looks like trump's false pledges on the wall came from the wrong place, that he cared too much about people in the media criticizing him while lou dobbs says that reality shows trump's false pledge led him to a wiping from pelosi. >> i think the president cares way too much about people in the media. there are times when you have leverage. there are times you don't. and that was a time in which he did not -- he did not have maximum leverage. >> i mean, she has just whipped the president of the united states, but you've got to call it as it is. this president says it was going to be conditional border security building that wall, and
he just reversed himself. to deny it is to try to escape from reality. and that we're ain't going to do here. >> dobbs is pointing out that trump's false pledge hurt himself and his political allies because other people, other republicans were putting their necks out based on trump's word. and this is where bluffing can blow up in your face. here is one of trump's most loyal cheerleaders taking trump's word during the shutdown. >> he's not going to sign a deal that doesn't have money for the wall. if he gives in now, that's the end of 2019 in terms of him being an effective president. that's probably the end of his presidency. >> the end of, quote, his presidency. and that's a trump supporter talking. now of course trump signed a temporary bill that doesn't have any money for the wall. apparently pelosi made him because she found a way to break this cycle of false pledges or lies. her floss which 5 was don't give
in. she decided if she cared about this issue more than trump, she would wait him out, not negotiate and try to meet in the middle of what she deemed a false pledge that is what i want to get in tonight and why this is important. it may show a way forward for trump's opponents. in fact, even his own former supporters are saying so. >> 37 -- >> i'm telling you how to get trump. he promised something for 18 months and he liked it. that's how you get trump. >> that's how you get trump. he is clearly in some political trouble right now. you can tell when these takedowns of a broken pledge and reality to line lies are coming from ann coulter and lou dobbs and "fox & friends." big picture, it is not every week that the president creates the longest shutdown in history and then caves by taking the exact offer he had at the start and draws critiques from the right, left, and center. nor is it every week that a president looks for a week to hide that cave in plain sight
and announce it the day his longest serving adviser is indicted. but as you know, i guess that's the way we live now. and it has, of course, also become something of a clish they shay to say oh, but trump gets away with things and he's not held accountable for his lies. look at the facts. six former aides invited. an open criminal probe. his team is not getting away with everything. roasted and toasted for broken promises by conservatives, which shows that the falsehoods did hurt him in the shutdown fight. so you know trump's lawyers? they always say they don't want him to talk or to testify because mueller would spring a perjury trap. but trump is in trouble because of lies he told all by himself. he is living in a perjury trap house he built himself. and maybe that's very 2019 as well, from a wall to a cave to a trap house. legally, it's too early to know
if trump made any false statements that amount to perjury. some supporters say it's too late to put up with his false statements anymore. >> you want to -- >> 37. >> i'm telling you how to get trump. he promised something for 18 months, and he lied about it. that's how you get trump. you might take something for your heart... or joints. but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in clinical trials to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.
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bob mueller may have indicted roger stone for many reasons, but when it comes to witnesses against stone, the indictment relies on two, a radio host who interviewed julian assange called person 2, and a ckoconspiracy theorist, witness jerome corsi. he has been in the news a lot since stone's arrest on friday. >> on friday, person number 1 revealed his identity. it is jerome corsi. >> stone communicated with
conspiracy theorist jerome corsi. >> asked jerome corsi to lie. actually it was the guy on the left. >> the guy on the left has provided 40 hours of testimony to mueller's team, making him a key witness according to mueller and the probe. that's a conclusion we reached on this show before the indictment cited corsi so much. it's why we interviewed him about his alleged activities regarding stone, assange and mueller, including corsi's wednesday interview that did appear to bother stone, who you can see right here, posted a picture of the interview with a caption calling corsi, quote, judas. stone posting on thursday, the same day mueller with us filing a sealed indictment against him based on that same jerome coarse circumstances aka judas, aka person 1. with me is jerome corsi. we will refer to you as you are referred to legally as person 1, not the other name. >> i prefer to use my legitimate name, jerome coarse it is. >> thank you for coming back,.
>> sir. >> great pleasure. >> given what we see now in the evidence in this indictment, let me ask you point-blank very clear, are you in roger stone's telling the actual intermediary to wikileaks? >> no, i'm not. i don't have any tie to wikileaks. i've never -- as i said repeatedly, i've never spoken to julian assange, never communicated with him directly or indirectly. so it's impossible that i be roger stone's link to julian assange. >> is there anything in here about your dealings that you think is wrong in this indictment? >> i think it's entirely correct and consistent with my 40 hours of testimony. >> you gave a lot of testimony. >> yes. >> if this is entirely correct, doesn't this state that essentially roger stone took what he did with you and then tried to blame it on another person, person 2? >> well, it sounds like that. but arleigh, all i know --
>> it does sound like that. >> it does. but what i'm sticking to is what i can testify to. and i've said that i'll be willing to testify. i'm going to tell the truth. and everything that's in that statement i affirm is true. >> right. and that goes to your testimony. >> yes. >> let me read from this. it starts out real simple which is roger stone's accused of bad things and lying about them. mueller says stone directed person 1, that's you, not person 2, to contact the head of wikileaks. person 1, not person 2 told stone the word is friend and the embassy plans two more dumps. so when roger stone was out bragging about his intermediate access to wikileaks, perhaps unbeknownst to you, according to mueller, he was actually referring to you. >> i think that's quite possible. it's taken me a long time to kind of sort through that, but it does seem to fit together. >> and why does roger lie about all this, according to mueller? >> i just don't know.
i failed many times i failed to take the mind reading course at harvard. you'll have to ask harvard. >> people will wonder if that's your way of h-bombing, which means citing harvard. >> no, it's true. the factsy don't know what roger is thinking. you'll have to ask roger. >> here is some of what roger is saying. i want to play this for your benefit. >> sure. >> it's a fox news interview, and he is speaking about you, jerome corsi. take a look. >> who do you expect the prosecutor will indict next, if anyone? where is this going? >> well, i have no idea. they seem to be in hot pursuit of dr. jerry corsi. dr. corsi said a number of things about me that are not true, but he says he won't testify against the president. in a research memo that jerry corsi wrote me regarding the podesta extensive and lucrative business dealings in russia is not part of a cover-up because no cover-up was required. >> your response? >> i don't anticipate being
indicted now. i think it's far less likely. the indictment for roger stone indicates no wrongdoing on my part, and secondly, if i'm going to be used as a witness or even if my e-mails are going to be used as a witness, i don't think it will serve mueller's purpose to indict me and undermine my credibility. >> so that's very important. you had previously said you were willing to fight this and afraid of dying in jail. you have some foundation for some of that fear, because mueller sent you a written draft indictment. >> which i rejected. >> which you rejected. i can tell you, a lot of people if they get from bob mule area written statement of how they would be indicted, they would be very concerned. now tonight, after the stone indictment comes out, you're saying you think it's less likely that you'll be indicted. do you have assurances from mueller's team to that effect? >> no. i've heard nothing from mueller's team. this is my own assessment of the situation. coy be totally wrong. but i think it's much less
likely today. when mueller was really incensed and one of the prosecutors aaron zielinski, after i refused to accept the plea deal told my attorney we'll take it from here that was the end of november. >> and you haven't heard and your team has not heard from them since? >> no, we have not. >> is it accurate in your experience to characterize that what happened was the mueller team put pressure on you threatening to indict you, seeking cooperation. you rebuffed any plea offer but still provided extensive cooperation, and it seems now they're treating you as a cooperating witness. that is to say treating you well. >> well, i think there is a good logic to that. first of all, i always went in to cooperate. as i said, i provided them on a proffer, my computerses, my backup to those computers, cell phones, e-mail account, everything. it fell apart at the 40 hours because mueller was convinced i had to have a link, a tie to
julian assange. after 20 hours, i detail this in "silent no more", my book, the fact we couldn't find anyone. i certainly couldn't find anyone searching all my contacts in 2016 and really trying hard to say maybe this american may have indirectly communicated or didn't know i was getting information from assange. we finally came up with no one. and david gray said to aaron zielinski and the others, if you got anybody, tell us. because i'm willing to acknowledge it. can we see it? >> and final question. >> sure. >> do you have evidence or observation that suggests that roger stone sought wikileaks's help in timing the release of the e-mails around the "access hollywood" tape? >> i can't prove that at all. i had one call from roger as i recall it. roger disputes this on the day that wikileaks did begin in october, dropping the final e-mails on john podesta in which
roger was essentially saying we've got this timing issue. his bush tape is going to be released, and we'd like to have assange begin releasing e-mails now. >> stone said that to you? >> that's my recollection. >> did you tell the mueller folks that? >> oh, yes. >> and were they interested in that? >> absolutely. >> duh doesn't that sound like roger stone is an accomplish of donald trump, not seeking information, but actually trying to collude with wikileaks, to release things in a way that would explicitly help the campaign and solve one problem? >> there was no one i could contact. we went through the entire list. as i say in my book, i think i mentioned it to the world at the staff meeting that day. >> but does that look at attempted collusion? >> that's going to be a conclusion a jury will come to. what i'm going to do, ari, when it comes to that question, if i'm on the stand, i'm going tell the truth as i did to the grand jury i'm going to take a break. if you told the folks that you said you did, i can see why
roger stone is calling you, quote, judas. although we're not here, we're reporting on everything we learn as it comes. i can see why he is upset with you. >> i understand. my goal is not to please roger stone. it's to testify with the truth to the best of my ability. that's what i'm going to do, regardless where the chips may fall. >> understood. a mueller witness in the news right now, a person number 1, dr. jerome coarse it is. thank you for coming on "the beat." >> my pleasure. thank you. up ahead, an msnbc exclusive. undocumented workers terminated from a trump property in their employment. talking about what he thinks trump new at the time, even as he talked about hiring undocumented workers. >> do uwhere think that they knew that your documents were false?
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new reporting exposing the trump organization for hiring and then firing undocumented workers. "washington post" revealing that during the shutdown over the wall, the trump organization fired 12 different people undocumented workers at the trump national golf club in new york. nbc's kate snow spoke exclusively with some of those people. >> they asked me again, are you legal working here? i told them no. so after that, they say like, so the company, they cannot keep you there. >> eight years at the club.
margarita recorded her meeting. >> the club must end its employment relationship with you today. >> these workers say they did use fake green cards, which is a violation of, of course, the rules, as well as fake security cards in order to get the job. but they also allege a hands-off process by the trump organization for hiring. >> they take a copy and they don't ask anything. >> they didn't ask any questions? >> no questions, no nothing. >> you worked there almost 14 years. did you meet president trump? >> many times. >> do you think they knew at the club your documents were false? >> that's what i think because they need employees. and they don't check, like criminal. >> that a key question, was this a knowing practice? i'll report the other side. eric trump tells nbc they have strict hiring practices. they take it very seriously. one of the workers think trump himself must have known all
about it. >> i cannot, like, be sure about that, but like he gotta know. >> you think the president must have known. >> he must have known. >> of course, the he there is donald trump. the timing suspicious with the wall fight and a presidency that has long focused on attacking the undocumented. >> we will build a great wall. and we will put an end to illegal immigration. >> we will buy american and we will hire american. >> what american workers win, america as a country wins. [knocking] ♪ ♪
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quite a monday. that's our show. don't go anywhere. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. a russian winter. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. breaking news on the russia front. matt whitaker told reporters he thinks the mueller investigation is close to being completed. it's the first public acknowledgment from the department of justice. take a listen. >> right now, the investigation is, i think, close to being completed. and i hope we can get the report from director mueller soon as possible. >> well, the news comes just days after federal officials arrested roger stone in florida and c