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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  February 22, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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voters, skepticism is that that bond is going to break. for anyone thinking of running against trump is going to have to consider. "all in" with cris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> i don't want to talk about it now. >> did paul manafort's pardon strategy just go. >> that's obviously what the is. and new questions for the man running mueller's investigation. erse rngts and breaking news from the "new york times." what we know about the new information michael cohen gave investigators about the trump family business. plus growing calls for the resignation of trump's labor secretary over his handling of an infamous sex abuse case. and democrats start their push
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to terminate the president's emergency. >> there is no emergency@border. there isn't going to be a wall. good evening from los angeles. i'm chris hayes. it appears michael ecohen is not done informing on the president to federal prosecutors. cohen met with prosecutors manhattan offering up dirt at the trump's family business, the trump organization. but first, robert mueller isn't done either. after multiple outlets reported that the justice department was preparing to get mueller's final report as soons a next week, today an anonymous official pushed back. telling nbc news and others that mueller's report will not be edelivered to the attorney
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general at any time in the next week. the president now says he'seger for the report to come out. >> you know the nice part? no collusion, obstruction, no anything. no phone calls, no nothing. so i look forward to seeing the report. if it's an honest report, it will say that. >> you catch the no phone calls thing there? weird. we will get to see a key document in the case against paul manafort. in fact we're expecting it any minute now. tonight is the deadline to file a sentencing memo where manafort pled guilty to two counts of conspiracy regarding his work in ukrain. you might remember we learned from redaction fail by manafort's own lawyers that their client shared polling data during the 2016 campaign with his russian associate, kilimnik.
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and we heard manafort's contacts with kilimnik, as one prosecutor put it, to the heart of what the special counsel is investigating. we learned from the same transcript a possible reason why manafort breached his plea deal by lying to investigators as judge ruled last kweek. they said manafort might have lied to increase his chances of getting a president pardon. that is not the craziest idea on manafort's part. after the president has said a pardon for his campaign manager is still a possibility. but now state prstate prosecuto planning to hold accountable. the manhattan district attorney is getting ready to charge
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manafort wither state crimes. pardons only reply to federal charges. what do we know e? >> we know the manhattan d.a. has a grand jury looking into the actions of paul manafort. bank fraud, possible tax violations and others at the state level and that process is moving forward. we know witnesses are being called and we know that there are plans, perhaps in the coming weeks to file state-related charges here in new york. it is unclear to us at this wlohour whether they're going to move forward or keep them sealed as he watches and waits and sees what happens with the federal case with manafort. but we can confirm it's very much ongoing. in new york, looking to state charnels that could include
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mortgage fraud and tax fraud and other related financial matters. >> explain to me that decision that he would make them public to keep them sealed. >> if manafort is sentenced to 25 years in prison, which is effectively a life sentence for a 70-year-old man and no pardon, then perhaps there's no reason to move forward and have state taxpayers pay for another trial going forward. the plan is to go forward wi charges regardless but that is still something to be discussed and considered. >> and one, the president can't pardon state crimes which is a thriving part of the thinking. number two there are double jeopardy protections. the charges have to be different, obviously. >> as explained to us, they are different. federal tax crimes are different than the state crimes out lawed
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in the state violations that have been outlined. it's not as if he's been tried one and going to be tried again on the same crimes. the prosecutor's position is these are different charges. these are state crimes and they'll be looking to hold him accountible for those. >> do we have any sense that there is a trigger for why it may have started or if this is just manhattan d.a. helping like anybody else. >> >> he e -- he deferred to the special counsel. he showed deference to bob mueller. but now they're moving forward with taking a look at what state may have been violated. >> thank you very much. the end game of the mueller
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investigation and i'm joined by jill wine-banks and pearl stein, a direct of constitutional law. i'm going to start with you. walk us through way the pardon works and its limitations in terms of state crimes. >> so ethepresident pardon power under the constitution is substantially unlimited. he can pardon whoever he wants. as long as he's pardoning them for a federal crime frrks conduct that might be illegal. it does not extend lat to state crimes. and states have been treated for the last 170 years as separate sovereigns under our law. so that although the supreme court just teak a taste case on this topic, which we ecan talk about that the state government is a separate sovereign and can
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move forward on its own regardless what the president it does. >> was there any talk about this back during the nixon days? i wonder if this is a strategy that's been worked out before ear war game before? >> we never talked about what state crimes might have been committed by the president or any of his other colleagues. we never worried much about that. we did obviously run into the pardon issue because as soon as he was reziend, we not if you thought we can't indict a sitting president, we certainly ecan indict a former president. but in the time took tadiscuss a new indictment and whether it would imenact tripact the trial other defendants, president ford pardoned richard nixon for all crimes that he might have ever committed. so it was a prospective.
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he hadn't been indicted and he was still pardoned and our research shows that we had no options. it is a very unlimited and powerful piece of power that he has to pardon. cannot be undone but it doesn't apply to the state. >> so there's a sort of interesting constitutional question because of the power of the pardon which is essentially unconstrained, as far as i can tell and it seem if you were to say i were to pardon you if you keep silent, that's obviously some kind of violation. and tlirl ritsz rr the position of the mueller team and it would ha consequences. and we know from the times there were discussions about that. what legal constitutional status
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does a pardon dangle, if such exists, have? >> well, this is a question that's come up a great deal over the course of the mueller investigation and the issue is not whether or not the president has the power to pardon whom ever he wishes. i think it's clear that he does. but he doesn't have the power to violate other laws, including those that prohibit obstruction of justice. for example we're showing that president was offering a pardon or extending a pardon for the purpose of obstructing justice frrks the purpose, for example of making it possible for mr. manafort to in some way continue to not give full information, not make a full disclocher to the special prosecutor or any other investigation. then there might be concerns it's being used in a corrupt manner. that the pardon power was being used just like any other lawful
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power for unlawful purposes and and there i think there would be an unusual and specialized question one doesn't encounter every day but that's par for the course. >> and this is just based on accounts from james comey and others from the inside circle. the president doesn't seem like the kind of person that would say i want you do shut up so i'll give you oo pardon. we've seen this in organized crime for years is basically a communication like the president knows you've been through a tough time and if you tell the truth, maybe tle can be mercy at the end of the. something that's plauzably deniable enough. and that seems the heart is what is the intent of the president? and he's doing all these things that look sketchy but there's some type of account they can contend is legitimate? >> i would have no hes
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orientation bringing an obstruction of justice case for the use of a legitimate power of the president done for corrupt purposes. so that would include firing james comey. it would include firing sally yates. it would include any pardon that he gives. and i think the very fact that his first pardon was to a person who was sheriff joe arpaio was a potential message don't worry. you don't have to cooperate with the court. i will take care of you. and i think that is part of him sending a message, part of an obstruction. and i think we can infer his corrupt intent under law by the combination of things that he has done. and i think that would be a valid and legitimate case. >> all right. thank you both for making time tonight.
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have a good night. next, breaking news tonight the president's former right-hand man provided new information about the trump family business. one of the reporters who broke that story joins me in two minutes. at story joins me in two minutes. to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪
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and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi, this is xfi. simple. easy. awesome. xfinity, the future of awesome. breaking news tonight. michael cohen has offered up new information on the trump family business. a report from the "new york times," the president's former lawyer who worked at the trump board for years spoke about possible irregulateies in the family business. specifically insurance claims the company filed over the years. cohen will testify at three separate hearings d.c. next week. behind closed doors and publicly before the house oversight committee. i'm joined on the phone by one of the reporters who broke the
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"new york times" story. what do we know about the undecisions under which michael cohen m cohen met with prosecutors? >> he met with them on a holiday, on martin luther king day. went perhaps to attract less attention and they discussed a number of topics, including as we reported, their interest in berry and he told them about these business practices that ehe alleged involved certain impruprities. >> and they relate to insurance? is that what your reporting indicates? >> reporter: our understanding is they're relating to insurance claims that trump organization made. that's what he alleged.
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it's unclear precisely what that involved and exactly what federal investigators have found so far in the last few weeks since he -- since he made those allegations. >> so just so i'm clear on this, he's meeting with the southern district, is that right? >> that's right. >> and we know he's spent a fair amount of time already since he was raided and indicted and arraigned with both of those offices, correct? this has been an ongoing communication? >> reporter: well, he was debriefed extensively by the investigators in mr. mueller's office. i think in total there were 70 hours of it debriefings. most of that involved mr. mueller's prosecutors. he also spent i believe two days
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with prosecutors from the southern district. but mr. cohen chose not to cooperate fully with the southern district and as a result of that, the information he provided was, in their view, limited. >> that's right. when it was time to talk about sentencing, they were pretty harsh about him being squirrely, evasive and not forthcoming. >> right. the sentencing mem eowo ewas extremely harsh. i think we called it scathing. i do think that he -- his most recent session was in all likelihood, part of an effort to provide information that might prompt the prosecutors to file a motion nad certain section of federal law that would allow
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them to seek a sentence reduction a post sentencing reduction for him. whether that will ultimately happen, obviously remains to be seen. >> final question. the donor in question from the inaugural committee that your reporting indicates was part of the conversation he had, we know they're looking at the inaugural committee. can you tell us more bout that? >> he was the one person actually named in the southern district's subpoena, grand jury subpoena the inaugural committee, which i think was a few weeks ago. and exactly where that will go and precisely the upshot of the information that mr. cohen provided remains to be seen at this point. >> thank you so much for making the time. more on what this means, i'm joined by co editor and chief from above the law.
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what do you make of this? they cooperate. you've got this weird thing that happens and t happens and the mueller team says we're pret furious about that and now he's back in on martin luther king day. >> i think it tells us is it's going to be part of donald trump 's life for the rest of his natural life. he's coming at trump like syphilis. it's never going away. everybody's so worried about oh, the mueller report. is it going to happen next week? se and, y and going to be here for his family, for his grand kids if he's not careful. overall what wie see today is they're continuing to pull tleds on the trump organization, which appears to be pretty criminally
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implicated in the loss of different ways and continue to pull that thread. what does that mean for cohen? there's no upside for cohen, given that he's already been sentenced. there's no upside for cohen unless he can actually give them information that leads to prosecution. this is -- he is now in the 1-800-tips line part of his life where unless he gets somebody convicted, he's going to stay in jail for two years. something that he and sp and y could lead to prosecution of another individual. >> so you know i thought about this in light of the insurance partf that reporting, which was interesting and i hadn't thought of it before. but someone on our staff remembered -- 2016 "ap" story. he received a $17 million
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insurance payment for damage to mar-a-lago. but the associated press has found little evidence of such damage. that's a thing that happens in the world. interesting that term jumped out in that article. >> i'm gehaving to to give credit to my wife because she's been saying for four years now if we've seen so much evidence trump committed some kind of illegality and crime up to the election and seen so much that he's committed in terms of obstruction while president, what makes us think he hasn't committed many crimes over his long and disastrous business career? and so they have to start investigating actual crimes that happen at the trump organization and you're right to bring up this insurance fraud thing. what you're looking at insurance
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fraud, they're not limited in scope like the mueller investigation to just looking at collusion with russia. seem to be following the money and that should be terrifying to it donald trump and don jr. and ivanka. >> michael cohen implicated the president in the commission of a federal felony to which he has pleaded and sentenced for in federal court in the southern district with the approval of federal prosecutors who have talked to other people around said crime in which he is individual one who michael cohen said directed the crime. that in and of itself is an indictable crime if the man didn't happen to be sitting in the white house. >> and that's why i say he's not going to be sitting there forever. impeachment is a political issue. but at some point he's no longer going to be a president and they're going to be waiting for him.
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>> and there's a question of statute of limitations. it is possible that if -- you said -- the president runs for reelection to essentially stay out of criminal exposure. to say if he's elected, his force field extends for another four years and maybe he can get away with it. >> nobody needs to win this election more than donald trump. >> thank you so much for joining us. dwm [ meowing ] mittens! make it rain. [ cheering ] [ singing opera ] change the music. ♪ when i move, you move beep. beep. use the rocket. [ sputtering ] if only everything in life listened to you like your new a-class. hey mercedes. [mercedes-benz voice assistant] how can i help you? change color. make it cooler. play my music. the a-class... ♪
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. there is no emergency at the border.
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it's a methodology of the president and not a reality at the border. people have to realize that. >> from the first day a week ago ewhen donald trump declared a national emergency foopay for a wall a wall that mexico was supposed to pay for. today he introduced a resolution to terminate that so-called emergency. nancy pelosi says the house is going to vote for it on tuesday. goes to the senate where by law it must be voted on within 18 days. texas democratic congressman wrote the resolution that would block the president's emergency resolution. it's basically a paragraph saying the emergency is withdrawn. pretty straight forward. >> and about six weeks ago there rumors started the president might declare a national emergency to build his border wall, we started working with the sledge slative counsel to
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figure out the most full proof way we could get congress to take a vote on it and not just the house but get the house to vote. so this should pass the house. we have and then the senate will have to vote on it. susan collins has said she'll support the resolution. we need three more republican senators. and then after that it's up to the president. >> am i correct that you only have one republican co sponsor in the house? >> that's right. justin amosh of michigan who has been a very libertarian minded republican. is the only co sponsor so far. we tried to make it very bipartisan in how we approached it. i have said i think this is a matter of a constitutional power grap. he has sought to undermine the legitimacy of the judiciary and
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this will not be the last time he tries to undermine congress and take power from the united states congress. >> what's striking to me is you've had numerous senators voice their unease, whether they end up voting against it or not. we know from reporting, mcconnell and cornyn tried to get the president not to do it in the first place. >> john cornyn said this was a terrible idea. so i wanted to make sure they have an opportunity to express that perspective by voting on this resolution in the near future. >> it's striking to me they have said same thing. thisope othens door. you can find one republican out of the -- there's 200 of them now. the one to co sponsor? >> i still have until tuesday. look we've been working the polls. they are just deafly afraid of
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how donald trump commands the base of the republican party. they're scare odof a primary challenge. scared he's growing to say something bad over twitter and they' they're going to get a primary opponent. but this is a time where they need put fears of losing their primary, they need to put that aside and stand up for the country. >> it continues to just tell patent and obvious, easily discreditable lies. this is what he had to say today. take a listen. >> we need a wall. we've apprehended than we have in many, men ea years. a wall, we wouldn't even have to apprehend them. >> more than we've got in many years. this has been the strategy from the beginning. that's what apprehensions look like. >> look, apprehensions are a
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four decades low. we also have more federal, state and local law enforcement presence that border in the nation's history. what's going on here for donald trump is mexico refused to pay, congress refused to pay and now he's insisting the american taxpayers pay. are you growing a beard so people don't confuse you and your twin brother? i heard that somewhere. >> i hope you like the beard here. >> i actually don't know whether it was you or julion. >> that's the problem. >> and i was like which one? i don't know. >> that was my brother. he lives in el paso. yes. >> i'm glad you're growing the beard. it's helping everyone out here.
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brek within called out the conspiracy at devos. >> i find it quite a bewildering experience. they've flown in to hear bregman of how we're destroying the planet and i then almost no one raises the real issue of the rich just not paying their fair share. it feels like i'm at a firefighters conference and no one's allowed to peek about water. we've got to talk about taxes. all the rest is [ bleep] in my opinion. >> the video of the historian sticking it to the elite was like cat nip who invited bregman on his show. you know the fable about the frog and the scorpion? that's thing two. scorpion?
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when bregman called out the super rich, tucker carlson had to have him on his trump tv show and then interview never made it on the air but bregman recorded things from his end and released it objen the internet. >> one of the great moments in davos history. are you the first person to note that people are flying prive toot talk about global warming and none of them mention tax avoidance? >> started off well enough but the reason we poonly have bregman's recording is he went from calling out davos to tucker. >> all they want you to do is sca scapegoat immigrants instead of talking about tax evasion. >> and i'm taking orders from the murdocks. is that what you're saying?
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>> it doesn't work that directly. it works by you taking their dirty money. you are a millionaire funded by billionaires. it's true all the anchors, all the anchors on fox -- they're all millionaires. >> and things pretty much fell apart and never aired on trump tv. bregman released his recording of the interview. carlson did address it. there is some profanity, thousandther hand i meant it with total sincerity. >> so i mean you're probably not going to air this but i want to davos to speak truth power and i'm doing exactly the same thing right now. you may not like it but you're a millionaire funded by billionaires and that's the reason you're not talk about these issues.
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>> but i am talking about these issues. >> you're all i'm against the globalest elite, blah blah. it's not very convincing. >> why don't you go. [ bleep] yourself. i tried to get you a hearing but you were to [ bleep] annoying. >> you can't handle the criticism, can you? can you it's inspected by mercedes-benz factory-trained technicians. or it isn't. it's backed by an unlimited mileage warranty, or it isn't. for those who never settle, it's either mercedes-benz certified pre-owned, or it isn't. the mercedes-benz certified pre-owned sales event. now through february 28th. only at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer. i have no idea how we're going to get through this. follow me. unitedhealthcare has the people and tools
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reacted to the arrest of coast guard lieutenant christopher paul hasson, the white supremacist who was apparently, allegedly plotting a domestic terror attack and trump has called the media enemy people, encouraged violence but he insisted today he did not need to tone down rhetoric in the wake of hasson's arrest. >> i think it's a very sad thing when a thing like that happens. >> do you think you bear responsibility for moderating your language? >> no, i don't. i think my language is very nice. >> one of his google searches was civil war if trump impeached. that is not the deranged fantasy of a lone weirdo. the idea of a second civil war to defend trump is an ever present topic among right-wing
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med media reflected regularly by right-wing personalities who make their money selling paranoia to an increasing agitation >> you might even get away with saying that we are on the cusp of a second civil war. some of you might say that we are already into it. that it is already begun. however you characterize it though, we are under attack from within. >> bill o'reilly warned of a possible civil war, sean hannity said the nation could be headed towards a civil war, roger stone said impeachment would bring a spasm of violence, an insurrection like you've never seen. >> if there is a coup d'état, an illegitimate unconstitutional effort to impeach trump by
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biassed and partisan prosecutors or an illegal take down boy the 25th amendment, there will be a civil war in this country. >> just yesterday a man that the president nearly brought on to his legal team last year had this to say to laura ingram. >> we are in a civil war in this country. there's two standards for justice, one for democrats, one for republicans. press all liberal, all left. they hate republicans, they hate trump. so the suggestion there's ever civil discourse in this countfry the foreseeable future is over. it's not going to be. it's going to be total war and i do two things. i vote and i buy guns. >> that's nice. president and his allies insist anyone who doesn't stand with trump is -- and a deep state conspiracy and a coup d'état and
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super fans then send pipe bombs to critics and tries to murder two dozen and paul hasson plot to kill journalists, and they insist their rhetoric doesn't matter. trump again declared the enemy of people. because of an voice mail. >> you're the problem. you the enemy of the people. and although the pen might be mightier than sword, the pen is not mightier than the ak-47. and just remember, ken, there's nothing civil about a civil war. . ♪
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there are growing calls for alex acosta to resign after a federal judge found he broke the law as u.s. attorney and
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attracted scrutiny after investigative reporting by the folks at "miami herald." president trump was asked for his take on the situation. >> mr. president, do you have concerns about the allabor secretary? >> he's done a great job as labor secretary and that seems like a long time ago but he's been a fantastic labor secretary. that's all i can tell you about it and that's all i know about it. >> seems like a long time ago, all the child sex abuse. thanks to "the "miami herald"" this is what we knows happened in 2007. alex oh cosacosta friends with trump and bill clinton and dozens of under age girls say sexual assaulted them. as part of the plea, any potential co-conspirators received immunity. the victims were never told the case was closed. and epstein only served 13
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months in jail after being accused of serial sexual assault of more than 30 girls, some as young as 13. now the herold reports thursday a federal judge ruled that arrangement which acosta over saw block the law. prosecutors not only violated the act by not informing the victims but misled the girls into believing the case was on going and prosecutors secretly closed it after sealing the plea bargain. joining me is former secretary deputy of labor and ceo and academic director of child usa, an organization for children. marcy, let me start with you. you work in this space and have you seen a plea like this? have you seen a case with details like this? >> you know, the only thing that's even close in comparison is the way in which the bishops covered up sex abuse by the
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priests. this is about powerful men working with other powerful men and agreeing that we're not going to embarrass you or make you pay all these victims. and treating all the victims like collateral damage. for me, that's the worst part. once again, the kids were thrown to the side and all about the adults protecting each other. >> and acosta is now the labor secretary, chris, and i got to say, you know, i lose track of scandals in the cabinet. you know, wilber ross got dinged. there is a bunch of other things that happened and ryan. so i lose track of them. this just seems like a resignble offense to have a federal judge say you broke the law. >> let's be clear. we're talking about modern slavery and it's estimate that there are as many as 40 million victims of slavery around the world. and one of the most powerful
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agencies is department of labor. the department of labor inspects workplaces around the country and because they focus on low wage immigrant industries where you're likely to find violations, the department of labor inspectors are often the first people to find victims of human trafficking, and around the world the department of labor has a powerful bully pulpit that issues reports on child labor and works to increase awareness just two months ago, alex acosta announced $50 million of grants to fight child labor, forced labor, human trafficking around the world. this is incredibly hypocritical for him to be serving in this position. >> marcy, what is your experience tell you about what happens to girls such as these in thirteen years and quite vulnerable and often sort of at the margins who come forward to tell what happened to them to
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prosecutors? >> well, it all depends on what the prosecutors' training is but depends on what the statute of limitations are. if there is a shot at justice normally at this point in history, they are listened to. what happened 12 years ago is that the prosecutors took their names. they took the facts and then they basically shut them out. when the victims came forward and said we really want to make sure he's prosecuted, they were told oh, we're investigating. don't worry about it. and they already signed a deal with him not to prosecute him. it really was a cruel way to deal with the victims. >> chris, this was something that came up in acosta's hearings, his confirmation hearings. although the "miami herald" did not publish this incredible investigative reporting. it was known this is a fishy plea deal. what can be done? the senate has oversight i guess. house has oversight. what can be done?
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>> the justice department office of professional responsibility has an investigation into this senator ben sass says they will look into this but you raised had this been known at the time he violated federal law and did not give dozens of victims notice about the deal and a chance to have their day in court, it would be interesting to know if he got confirmed at the time and sarah sanders said look, this is a tough sentence. if it was such a tough sentence, why didn't the victims know about it in advance? >> marcy, today there was -- cook county charges in illinois brought against r. kelly famously prosecuted and acqu acquitted in the sexual assault of underaged girls and been charged with ten counts in that case. i covered the church for my first book and i was shocked and appalled how much covering there was and how little what happened to the victims meant. have we made progress? are we making progress on that
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front? >> well, i actually think that the vatican meeting going on right now shows you that the church itself has not made much progress. they are still talking about false claims. they are worried about the reputations of the ones accused but this decision in the epstein case is a big deal because it basically says hey, victims, you get to be part of the process and when you're not. >> right. >> something is going to happen. if in fact, we see a trial of epstein, which we could. we could see this non-prosecution agreement dissolve, that would be a big deal and that would show we have made progress. >> wait a second. explain how that would play out legally. >> so basically what happened is he didn't have a plea deal. he had a non-prosecution agreement. >> right. >> what the judge ruled -- right? the judge basically said this is based on fraud. the victims were told there was an investigation when there wasn't and they weren't included in violation of federal law.
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they can't get damages under federal law but they can certainly undo the non-prosecution agreement and when you undo that he's there. they can certainly prosecute him. >> right. he ends up never pleaiayinea pl federal crimes and does time for local charges. the federal government never even gets him to plea. they don't prosecute. >> right. right. they play this whole game with him and then in 2002, the federal government had elimin e eliminated the criminal statute of limitations. these women could still testify and still be validated. so acosta is out of the picture. we have other prosecutors in florida. i really hope they go for it. >> that's really interesting idea. chris, of course, if he's gone, lord knows we get another acting in the cabinet that basically is half full at this point. >> exactly. but let me say moral leadership
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matters and you can't profess to be a champion for victims of human trafficking if your record doesn't demonstrate it. >> chris lou and marcy, thank you both so much. have a great weekend. that's "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. we're going to have the reporter from the "miami herald" that broke up that story. she's going to be joining us live this hour. >> julie k. brown who should win all the awards. it is a model of what great local newspaper reporting looks like. >> and impact journalism. talk about the impact of what she's been able to do. stunning. thanks for your coverage, much appreciated. >> yeah, i'll watch it. >> thanks to you at home for joining us. it is friday. you know what that means. five news cycles of news already crammed into this one day and we are still waiting for what we think will be a pretty big news maybe sometime tonight from the office of robert mueller, the special counsel. there is a court ordered deadline tonight for the special


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