tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBCW February 27, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PST
his bigger problem. today may be a big clue as to why. everybody else, what a day. my great team, thank you, guys. that's all we have for tonight. we're handing the baton right now. more of this coverage in this unbelievable day. again, a criminal conspiracy was actually alleged by michael cohen. that is news sitting there. a a ari melber, you've got the baton. >> thank you. a truly historic day in washington. tonight i'm about to be joined by special guest donny deutsch who just talked to michael cohen after his testimony. i'm going to give you a short intro. if you follow the news, you know the gist. michael cohen testifying under oath against donald trump for many, many hours. laying out in detail a damning
series of allegations. some sounded criminal against a sitting president. some sounded just terrible. bad things detailed by a person who says he was in the room. this was extraordinary. unprecedented testimony from one of, remember, only six indicted and yet to speak this way. none of the others have talked about their crimes under oath or other details on oath. they haven't. no one has pointed this finger so directly at their old boss donald trump. and to trump's defenders on the committee, cohen had a simple message. look, i used to be like you. i used to defend this man just like you for the same reasons you do. and the only difference between us is i put that in the past tense. take a look. >> documents that are irrefutable and -- >> i did the same thing that you're doing now for ten years. i protected mr. trump for ten years.
i can only warn people the more people that follow mr. trump as i did blindly are going to suffer the same consequences that i'm suffering. >> i'm joined as promised right now by mya wiley and donny deutsch. before we talk about what you've learned having been along side this man the whole time in what was for anyone watching at times emotional testimony from a person who is going to go be incarcerated, i want to ask you what was important that michael cohen said that sounded true and implicate this president? >> number one, his -- overall, his testimony was very credible, i thought. and part of it being credible is he didn't overstate. he was very careful with the facts. and so it was very credible when he talked about the way in which donald trump worked, the fact that he was directed to make
payments and how that was structured through allen weisselberg. it was also, you know, the way he talked about the trump assets and the way donald trump would inflate the assets if it was to his advantage, say, in the interests of insurance or deflate the assets if it was helpful for his taxes. and that was really -- you know, it was not a big period of time in the testimony today, but it was pretty significant. because those would be new potential criminal charges that would -- where he is directly implicating donald trump. it was credible because the president himself has not released his tax returns which was always odd. and never quite explained to the american public why he wouldn't. that might be a reason. you know, i also think those
points about about donald trump's wink wink nod nod in terms of the trump tower. he says very clearly, look. no, he did not directly tell me -- he looked me in the eye. and said there is no business in moscow as he then went out and lied to the public. that is kind of very typical ways in which we see crime bosses instructing people. >> that was the other important part. he ma e this isn't normal. and as we get more eyewitness accounts, the country has to deal with this not as a political matter and not strictly as a legal matter. because so much of what i saw
today was gangster-like activity. in that vein, michael cohen talking about the threats. the way that threatening people -- you can use words in clever ways that aren't technically crimes. but the ways that donald trump routinely used him to threaten people to get his way. take a look. >> how many times did mr. trump ask you to threaten an individual or entity on his behalf? >> quite a few times. >> 50 times? >> more. >> a hundred times? >> more. >> 200 times? >> more. >> 500 times? >> probably. over the ten years. >> over the ten years, he asked you -- >> and when you say threaten, i'm talking with litigation or an argument. >> bullying behavior. we've also heard it in the language. and when you're talking about
calling people rats -- when you're talking about a sitting president, that kind of behavior becomes an abuse of authority. under the precedent we have from richard nixon is abuse of the authority is in and of itself is ground for impeachment. we're hearing about a sitting president directly from someone who has known him deeply, personally, and his ways of working and has essentially said those ways continued into the white house. not on every single type of claim, but that this was conversations that he had had with the president in the white house. >> donny, i want to leave some space for you to speak about this any which way you want. this is a friend of yours. he doesn't claim that he did everything the right way. but i wonder how you felt watching chairman cummings who i think does take his role seriously who went out of his way to do some bipartisan outreach and mend fences during the hearing. but when chairman cummings was
pretty careful, made a point to say on the record that this is not normal. that he's from baltimore and he knows how this works in prison. and in his view, the president of the united states increased the risk of physical danger to michael cohen, your friend, by calling him a rat so publicly as he prepares to go do three years. >> i know chairman cummings was so emotional and so upset the night that trump went after michael's father-in-law. kind of started this threat of the family and took it very emotionally. and i think he saw the kind of man chairman cummings was today. a lot to unpack here. i spoke to michael a few moments ago. he was with both of his lawyers. i said how you doing. he said exhausted. i mean, i was exhausted watching. keep in mind, he did nine hours yesterday. i mean, it's staggering. i said would you have done anything differently? he goes, no. and he brought up a point a he
said during the hearings. the republicans not once with all of the charges, with all of the visual aids with the checks with the documents bring that up. how many hours was this? not one republican brought up other than say don't smear the president, didn't have any questions about -- >> on a committee that again, this is not the judiciary committee. this is the committee that does overstiegt of the government. particularly when you talk about abuse of the federal government, something that any intellectual conservative would want to reckon with. you mention that. i want to now play so viewers can take it in themselves that moment with congressman cummings. take a look. >> i know, i know it's got to be pa painful being called a rat. i live in the inner city of baltimore, all right? when you call somebody a rat, that's one of the worst things you can call them. when you go to prison, that means a snitch.
i'm just saying. and so the president called you a rat. we're better than that. we really are. i know that this has been hard. i know that you face a lot. i know that you are worried about your family. but this is a part of your destiny. and we have got to get back to normal. with that, this meeting is adjourned. >> that's how it ended. tell me about the emotion on michael's face. >> look, i've spent hundreds of hours, dozens of hours with michael. the only time he cracks and gets emotional is about his family. when he referenced there. and it was painful to watch as a guy that -- knowing what he was going through. and the game today was not do i like michael. do i think he's a good guy. is he credible?
and to me where he really showed his credibility was the places he came to defend donald trump and exonerate him. the three most heinous things that were teased that were put out there -- think about it. we hear there's a tape that you smacked melania. i've heard that rumor. he said there is no such tape. mr. trump would never do that. >> we've never once touched that story on this show. but you said it came up in a committee hearing today and he under oath knocked it down. >> same thing where as far as the salacious tape where he could have easily said, yes. you know, i haven't seen it but i've heard people have seen it. absolutely does not exist. and even with collusion where he specifically said i have not directly seen collusion. so, you know, that to me gave him credibility. the other thing going in that gave him credibility, he had everything to lose and nothing to gain. they told the truth today. had he lied once, he'd be facing
more jail. so the republicans part of saying liar liar pants on fire. i thought the meadows when meadows looked like a fool when he was waving that document around and it turned out that michael's point was correct and his point was incorrect, i also thought aoc -- there were so many openings to your point for where investigations can go. i have not been a big fan of aoc. i thought she did a great job because she teed up the tax returns. i love all the kids came up explicitly. at this point mueller has not even interviewed junior yet. and there were certainly things about junior. and going back to the southern district and their relationship with michael has completely changed. it was very contentious going in. they signed off that two-month extension. they recommended it to the judge. so they're working very closely
together and i've said on many shows. this ends with a rico charge in the southern district. this is where this ends where they go after the entire organization. you talked about a mob boss. that's what it was built for. someone who sits atop a criminal enterprise and is responsible for all of it. >> and that's a district you worked in. i want to play as you think about that possibility, cohen alleges trump did something that is partly why he's going to jail. the idea of who gets away with what. you were pointing out as we were coming out on the set regarding this, take a look at that moment today. >> to your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to a bank in order to help him obtain a loan? >> these documents and others were provided to deutsche bank
on one occasion where i was with them in our attempt to obtain money to put a bid on the buffalo bills. >> because this is a big news night and we've been pretty serious, i'm going to say it's time to bifurcate. i'm going to ask you a bifurcated question. i know you can handle it. >> i'm ready. >> i don't even know what that word means. >> one, if that's true, what is the legal exposure for donald trump and the people who helped him do it? and two, even if it's not true, as a matter of governance, is there still a question when you see this outlined under oath hanging over a president who owes deutsche bank which has been prosecuted for russian money laundering and all the foreign debts as people try to figure out what's going on in the white house and what's he negotiating overseas? >> one, bank fraud.
we don't know yet. >> i'll count. you do it. >> all right. donny's counting. bank fraud. we don't know yet if there's sufficient evidence but it could lead to money laundering. that's a possibility. we haven't heard sufficient evidence, so i'm not saying that's where it would go. any time you start to talk about bank transactions, remember that's how they got paul manafort. could be wire fraud as well depending on how he communicated information if it was fraudulent information. on your second question -- bifurcation. you can use the other hand. on the bifurcation, the other question, so sitting president who has demonstrated before coming to officer that he is willing to stretch the truth, hide money transactions, make inaccurate statements potentially to insurance companies and to banks. now -- and, and is hiding the
attempt to make money off of a foreign government. now he's in office and as we know, two of the lines of investigation is trump inauguration and the inaugural committee and also the extent to where there's been influence by foreign governance and policy decisions of the united states. so any of those vulnerabilities, financial vul nernlts because he needs money or is dependent on business he gets from foreign governments could potentially -- we don't know, but could potentially influence how he makes policy decisions and we have certainly seen some troubling behavior from this president when it comes to foreign policy. >> what you're listing off, sometimes we have a big banner like trump lied. the banner we have on breaking news right now was hard to fit in. all of the documented things he alleged against donald trump. and this is where this is not normal. people can say maybe they didn't want to believe this man.
but when he and drth opposed, you're looking between trump tweets which were found to have lied more than any other politician ever. and michael cohen's testimony under oath which as you just defined has a lot of pressure on it. they can't both be right. this a night for america to really process that. i want to bring in eleanor holmes. congresswoman, thank you for taking time on a busy day. i want to ask you when you asked him about the timing of the hush money payments to daniels. >> were you concerned about this news story becoming public right after the "access hollywood" study in terms of impact on the election? >> i was concerned about it, but
more importantly mr. trump was concerned about it. >> that was my next question. what was the president's concern about these becoming public? >> after the fire that encompassed the billy bush tape, a second follow-up to it would have been pleasant. >> what did you learn there and what was the import in your view of cohen saying there under oath in a close election after what they'd been through, another story like that might have made all the difference in the world? >> to be sure, ari, because what i was -- the time frame during which these salacious events came up was october. and we're talking about the november election. so i'm trying to find out if donald trump is trying to save himself from being brought down before the election. i have to tell you that there's
no doubt in my mind. michael cohen indicated that was exactly what he was about during that month after they came after those matters came out. and the public never got to judge him based on those -- and may have affected who became president of the united states. >> it may not matter in the legal sense of what mueller is investigating, but i wonder to you as a member of congress given the line of questioning on what you said tonight, does it matter if the reasonable inference can be drawn that if not for that confessed crime that donald trump would not be president? >> i suppose if you're a democrat it matters a lot. i think it matters a great deal.
and say but for that, you wouldn't have donald trump as a president every day going through this keeping from real business. i think this mattered on who would become president and donald trump knew it and made sure it would not come to life. >> i wouldn't normally ask you to assess the approach and the state of mind of one of your colleagues, but it's not a normal night. i wonder, have you seen chairman cummings in that state before? have you seen him like this ever? or a handful of times? and what do you think moved him to that degree. because he seemed to give a real plea both in the closing and his remarks right afterward to the nation almost across party lines. asking people through the tv
screen tonight listen to what you just heard. look at this. this is different. >> i've seen him but rarely. there's a part of him that wants to use testimony to teach and bring us together. after such a powerful day as this, you note he did not read from a script. he was touched by the position he was in and he spoke from his heart. i must tell you, it didn't last very long, but when it was all over, i don't know if the television picked up. i suppose i should say the democrats clapped. we didn't clap any other time during that hearing. >> because it was beyond. it felt bigger than the sort of factual predicates that were laid out over the course of the day. it was striking because everyone is trying to make sense. >> normally after -- probably
also spoke to the credibility of michael cohen. if michael cohen was not to be believed given those hours of testimony, you can bet chairman cummings would have told him you ought to be thinking about what you said today. his credibility was not impugned. that's one of the reasons i think the chairman thought he should speak about the value of that testimony. >> you know, we cover washington. you are a master of washington. at least you have experience. and a lot of things are planned out very carefully. we were told, of course, and we mention to viewers that mr. cohen was going to address reporters. and then after what i think was not known that chairman was going to end in that dramatic way, they had nothing to add to that. thank you for joining us this busy night. mya, stay with me. i have more with you coming up.
i want to dive into something i haven't had a chance to touch yet. the other mueller-related bombshell which michael cohen dropped today on both roger stone and donald trump. i'll explain why it is potentially the most legally significant thing. evidence suggesting trump may have misled mueller in writing. a special breakdown of cohen's testimony on hush payments. what i'm telling you is we have a whole lot more when we come back after the break. you're watching a special edition of "the beat." watching edition of "the beat." ♪ your grace. your majesty. your king. a legacy of leaders, speeders and serpent feeders. the alfa romeo giulia, stelvio and c37.
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now we turn tonight to our report on what is the most devastated claim made that's relative to the mueller probe. cohen laid out many damning allegations. but for mueller, if you remember one thing from today's seven-hour hearing, make it this. cohen now alleges donald trump did know about wikileaks release of dnc e-mails in advance. trump may have misled bob m mueller in his written answers. we're hearing this claim for the first time. cohen testified he was in the room when roger stone told trump over a speakerphone about the wikileaks e-mail dump before it happened.
>> mr. trump knew from roger stone in advance about the wikileaks drop of e-mails. in july of 2016. days before the democratic convention. i was in mr. trump's office when his secretary announced that roger stone was on the phone. >> now, why could that be credible? as a general matter, cohen would be risking extra jail time if he lies about something that mueller has been studying and could easily debunk. as a specific matter, mueller released separate evidence which actually reinforces this brand new allegation that we've been studying from cohen. because the indictment of roger stone says around june and july of 2016, stone advised officials about the e-mail dump. if that mueller indictment and cohen are right, it has a few implications. it directly contradicts stone who claims, of course, that he never had any such discussion with trump.
>> mr. trump put mr. stone on the speakerphone. he told mr. trump he had just gotten off the phone with julian assange and that mr. assange told mr. stone that within a couple of days, there would be a massive dump of e-mails that would damage hillary clinton's campaign. >> i can honestly say that can the trump, president trump and i have never discussed the wikileaks disclosures before, during, or after -- >> you never had a single discussion about hillary clinton e-mails with him at all? >> that is correct. >> never a single discussion. you may have just witnessed a lie on television, but the feds don't indict people for lying on tv. which leads to the second point tonight. mueller indicted stone for repeating that alleged lie to congress under oath. so just think about it. here is why hearings like
today's matter. stone was asked if he discussed his conversations with the wikileaks intermediary with the trump campaign in one of these types of sessions and he replied, i did not. that is part of what got stone indicted. cohen's team argues if stone is lying, he's telling the truth about it today. stating that the evidence shows, stone spoke to multiple individuals in the trump campaign about what he claimed to know about those wikileaks e-mails. this wikileaks part of the story may shape up as mueller, cohen, and mueller's evidence versus roger stone. many people have reasons not to believe stone. and that brings us to the third and final point that makes this so potentially explosive. this was not some minor ae in one hearing.
because here is the leaked question that mueller reportedly did ask president trump. quote, what did you know about communication between roger stone, his associates julian assange or wikileaks. ev trump could say, hey, look. all kinds of people pass on tips and predictions in a campaign. but if he flatly denied it and mueller has evidence showing that, then i can report for you tonight this key moment in this hearing today could be something much more ominous for trump. now, we do not know what trump wrote in the reply to the question i just showed you. mueller hasn't said, of course. but trump's team leaks a lot and there was a leak that a lot of legal experts said didn't look like it came from mueller's team about, yes, donald trump's written answer to that exact
question. cnn reported it, nbc has not confirmed it, but it's relevant tonight. because cnn cited two direct sources who told mueller in writing, roger stone did not tell him about wikileaks. whoa. i'm going to leave this up on the screen for a minute. there's a lot going on. i want it to sink in. that as president, trump told mueller in writing that stone never told them about wikileaks. now, if that's true, fine. but if it's not true, it could be a new crime. i repeat, a new crime committed by a president in office. the kind of direct lies to a special counsel that ken starr so insistently used against another sitting president, you might remember. and if that's true and trump did deny this to mueller, you know who else backs up this version
of events? even after roger stone was indicted, he didn't deny telling trump all this stuff but weirdly -- and i don't use this word lightly -- suspiciously he came out and said he knew donald trump also denied this exact thing in donald trump's written interrogatories to bob mueller. >> have you spoken to the president about this? >> i have not. when the president answered the written interrogatories, he correctly and honestly said roger stone and i never discussed this and we never did. >> correctly and honestly. tonight we know more than anyone knew then. why would roger stone be so confident about what stone says
his answer matches trump. and the question tonight becomes has bob mueller concluded that donald trump also lied about the wikileaks matter. that is the reporting that we have for you tonight. the most ominous thing for trump has apparently been playing out in plain sight in public with this new chapter today that is legally gigantic even if it may have been understandably overshadowed by other fire works and passion and scandal and intrigue. i want to get our legal experts to break all of this down when we're back in just 30 seconds. n we're ckba in just 30 seconds.
zblomplgts welcome back to our special coverage. we've been details our reporting on the devastating claim michael cohen made today on questions whether there's evidence trump misled bob mueller in his written answers. i want to dig into this exact piece of reporting with both of you. john, do you view what michael cohen said in concert with the stone indictment and what we just laid out as advancing the potential that mueller has already caught donald trump in a lie or a potential crime in his written answers? >> yes, it's explosive.
and you may remember, we discuss wlos whether or not his answers to these would catch him up short. enit has. we know for cohen how it happens. no doubt we have trump say, rog, we never discussed wikileaks or assange. and roger says, we never talked about that. and that's how they get their stories together. that's what we learned from cohen. that's trump's way. his deceitful way to get witnesses to say what he wants them to say which is the coverup. makes a lot of sense. >> as you're pointing out, that also speaks to why there's so much public discussion. people say does he look sloppy? but you're making the point that that actually could be evidence of guile because that's the way they're trying to get stories straight according to mueller on the stone side are crimes, are lies. >> that's exactly what cohen said was happening with his messaging when he gave his statement to send a message to others. and today they specified how the
lawyers helped them put together the statement that went to the hill. >> is that damning for those lawyers that michael cohen name checked them? >> i think we'd have to drill down closer, but i think it's -- the editing doesn't bother me as much as what is their knowledge about when, for example, the moscow deal was closed. and if they knew it was closed in june of 2016 instead of the beginning of the year or the year before, then they're in hot water themselves. >> let me bring in mya on this. as i've reported before and i'll repeat it, it's entirely possible that those leaks had some other purpose and that donald trump's written interrogatories which we don't have in our possession are accurate. that's a possibility. but if they are accurate, that would involve donald trump completely reversing what was his public claim about this. because if the sti-- he sticks the public claim of potentially corroborating their lies, his public claim was also like roger
that they never discussed what cohen alleges they did. >> did you ever talk to him about wikileaks? >> no. >> you never had a conversation? >> no. i didn't. i never did. >> did you ever tell him or other people? >> never did. >> even with good lawyers, if donald trump lied to his lawyers about that, would they be able to save him from trying to repeat that lie to mueller if they weren't in the room and didn't know until maybe today about this alleged roger stone speakerphone call? >> how can you save a client who's not telling you the truth? you can't. i thought we were going to go old school, ari, and go to houdini. friends. how many of us have them? apparently roger stone is a really good friend. a really good friend. such a good friend that he's going to catch a case for donald trump. except to your point, he actually has helped create a problem for donald trump.
it's also a pattern of discussion, the idea that there's a conversation happening between someone who's either a witness or someone who is under indictment by robert mueller. communications with the white house about the cases. which helps the white house then prepare its defense. it's the same thing we saw with paul manafort. but i also think we have potential additional corroboration here to the points you're making. and that's the draft offense for jero jerome corsi. what the mueller team says is that roger stone is an agent of the campaign, right? in other words, he is working -- he may not be paid, but he's actually working for the campaign as he is trying to get these e-mails. and that he is reporting that back. so it is also potentially corroborated in that draft defense. now, that again to your point, that draft defense wasn't filed, so whether or not that would
have changed, there are a lot of pieces of information here that suggests this is a big deal. >> as you know, there's an old saying in law school. we had so much evidence, we didn't even have time for jerome corsi up in here. because that stuff which of course i've had both him and person two on this show, does speak again to mueller pursuing the evidence he was lying. that makes it look like there might be an actual potential case against donald trump for lying to bob mueller. which is quite a crime. i want to also show for your analysis, brand new tonight from julian assange. roger stone did not have the telephone call that michael cohen described having had with
julian assange. 23409 really a statement at all whether he claimed that to trump. >> if he was over here and said it, it might be more interesting if there's an unsealed indictment against him. i think that this whole gang of pinocchios can't be trusted to tell us anything that's truthful. and i do credit the performance, if you will, by cohen today for giving the sense of being a man who is eating ashes and as close to being transparent as he could possibly be perhaps in his entire life. >> what is eating ashes mean in this context? >> sort of like a bottom place for you to exist in which there's, like, nothing lower that you could possibly be. >> a type of humility. >> yes, exactly. and i think he gave -- >> wasn't it christopher wallace who also knew his way around the
courtroom, the notorious b.i.g. that went from ashy to classy. cohen has gone from classy as you argue, ashy. >> and apparently i've given you some insight into a rap line that i wouldn't even be familiar with. >> just one of them days. >> yeah. well, it was a hell of a day. >> it's quite a day. although we mix in wisdom where we can find it, in closing i want to do lightning round with both of you. in a word or a sentence, did michael cohen advance a false statements perjury or obstruction case against donald trump if bob mueller wants to take it? john? >> yes. and if he takes an exception, i think he could get an indictment and should. i think it's also a basis in impeachment and congress that doesn't have a spine to do what it should be doing if there were anything like checks and balances in our government. long sentence. >> yeah.
>> two answers. john and mya, thanks to both of you as always. and john, i want to bring one other thing up with you when we come back. >> okay. >> we go deeper because we're doing this in a reported way as we make sense of what we're learning. up ahead, what cohen did not say about his final conversation with trump. but the clues that he revealed about what the new york feds might be doing which of course he can't get into. and more on the evidence about the hush money check that donald trump personally signed. we finally have it. that's a game changer as far as evidence is concerned. when we come back. anger as far evidence is concerned. when we come back. ♪
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pg&e wants you to plan ahead by mapping out escape routes and preparing a go kit, in case you need to get out quickly. for more information on how to be prepared and keep your family safe, visit pge.com/safety. we're back with our special coverage. i am joined by a former chief of staff to bob mueller himself and investigative reporter who helped break some of the very stories michael cohen told under oath tonight. let me explain wo to what we're turning to. you have the unusual situation of the president's former lawyer
releasing this and explaining the evidence that donald trump committed crimes in office. it's the stormy daniels reimbursement check. and when you have it, this is now all over the country. we saw it in the committee room. we have it here in our newsroom. this is not a jumbo check for some sort of charity auction. this is donald trump's personal bank account. this is what proves to the public cohen was telling the truth at least about this. and how he wanted to cover up alleged contact with women in 2016. again, we'll put it up. you have the signature of then-candidate trump and the date. examine, then-president trump. cohen also supplied a second check, $35,000 also signed by donald trump jr. in the trump org chief financial officer allen weisselberg. >> i was involved in several of these catch and kill episodes. he asked me to pay off an adult
film star with whom he had an affair. he was concerned with the effect that it had had on the campaign. he had told me that he had spoken to a couple of friends and it's 130,000. it's not a lot of money. and we should just do it. everything had to go through mr. trump. he knew about everything, yes. >> what did the president ask or suggest that you say about the payments? >> he was not knowledgeable of these reimbursements and he wasn't knowledgeable of my actions to keep him far away from it as possible. >> cohen's evidence and testimony proves that donald trump lied for so long about this. part of that we knew. but it also raises important new questions about how all that went down. >> -- check sent while president trump was in office with donald trump's signature on it. to reimburse mr. cohen for the
hush money payment. six months later the president denied anything about it. is there any doubt in your mind that president trump knew exactly what he was paying for? >> there is no doubt in my mind. >> for special coverage, we're going to megan tuohy and john carlin. let's start there because john, this was something mueller uncovered in his deep investigative work. and then famously handed it off to new york. do you think mueller understood this would be a potential outcome what has now exploded and came out today on the hill? >> well, it's interesting. look. i think bob mueller as he does followed his mandate carefully. saw where the facts were leading, saw evidence of a crime.
used the referral that had been given to him that said if it's outside the scope of what you're investigating it, you should give it to another investigator. did so and watched as the excellent career prosecutors and investigators in the southern district of new york and fbi followed up and revealed multiple crimes. then going back to a story you covered earlier, you have michael cohen flipping providing additional evidence and some of that evidence is quite relevant to the core of what mueller is investigating. and that is connections between individuals affiliated with the campaign like stone with an organization wikileaks that the president's current secretary of state and former head of the cia has referred to as a non-state hostile intelligence operation. and according to the revealing testimony today that prosecutors must have known about already but it was new to us, is that michael cohen says he overheard
a conversation directly tying the president of the united states to information coming from that hostile non-state intelligence. >> that caught your ear as well? >> it did. >> i'm going to go to megan in a moment on her reporting that led if as you say that account which is consistent with allegations in the rogerer stone indictment, fairs out and if donald trump privately doubled down on what he claimed publicly, which can was erebutting that, how would bob mueller view that kind of lie in an interrogatory? would he let it slide? >> that would be extraordinarily significant if it's true. and the other question is can you corroborate so you have more than the word of michael cohen when it comes to the prosecutor. at the end of the day, the interpretation of the counsel of legal office stands, the president can't be eindicted. >> and there is that interrogatory.
is that something mueller says to doj, congress has got to esee that. that's not something we're going to bury inside justice. >> part of the rational of the opinion that says the president can't be prosecuted doesn't say the president was king or above the law, it says we have another mechanism to resolve it and now there's congress and that would mean there has to be a way for congress to get the relevant information. > >> so a lot of people talk about mueller. do you think the evidence points to trump lying about that answer? >> i don't know. i know that you're reporting what another news organization said. >> megan, walk us through this. what was important to you when you were talking? >> one of many reporters and
classic reporting by the "wall street journal" and the associated press. >> you're an investigative boss. >> i think it's remarkable there's so many reporters going after the story. we knew trump made a hush payment to stormy dan y8s. campaign violations. knew that was done at the direction of individual one. today we got lot more details and color. one we learned for the first time there were don jr. and the cfo of the trump organization. they were identified to coon for that. that was a significant detail. >> plain english. does that mean they were directly involved in the misuse of corporate funds.
>> a style of the election. >> routine like hey, give michael some money. don't ask any legal questions. >> and originaly the hush payment and there was a whole system afterwards for the reimbursement. trump's involvement in 2018. he wasn't just involved in the conversations on the front end in term oz of deciding what they were go doing with the hush payments. 2018 he was calling cohen and saying listen, lie to reporters about my involvement in this. and we also had these incredible vigils. we had thesechucks that cohen
arrived with, not the one signed by trump himself but one signed by don jr. >> this does change things. there may be people who are skeptical, things you say you don't believe him on. this is a donald trump cheb. >> that's exactly right. i think the exist nsz of the checks, at tlooes trump check had been known. it's another thing to see them visually. >> really helping us understand what jumped out to you. we're going to fit in a break. we're going to fit in a break.
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something important we learned from michael cohen under oath. he said he's in constant contact with the feds wurk working other cases. here's what happened when a congressman asked about his last personal interaction with trump. >> and what did he or his agents communicate to you? >> unfortunately this topic is actually something that's being investigated right now by the southern district of new york and i've been asked by them not to discuss and not to talk about these issues. >> is there any other wrong doing or illegal act that you are aware of regarding donald trump that we haven't yet discussed today? >> yes. and again those are part of the investigations currently being looked at by the southern district of new york.
>> you heard it. one who served the uther for ten years, that interaction now is under federal criminal investigation. thought you'd want to know. that is our show. wale rr be back tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern and i'll be back as a guest on "hardball." which starts right now. crimes and allegations. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm steve curnackkornacki in fo matthews. michael cohen unloaded on his former boss with a series of revelations and allegations in his first and only public testimony, the former trump insider painted a devastating portrait of fraud, deceit and greed. he implicated