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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  March 7, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PST

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somewhere in the neighborhood of four years but he faces up to ten more next week. the story anot over but by the standards of what his team was looking for, quite a lenient sentence.lo thank you to my panel. msnbc breaking coverage continuesng right now with "hardball." four years. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. just moments ago a federal judge in virginia sentenced paul manafort to four years, 47 months. that was just moments ago across the river from here where manafort was convicted of eight felony counts last summer.
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speaking in his own defense during this hearing, "to say i've been humiliated and shamed would be a gross understatement. i ask for your compassion" well, he got it. another judge is coming next week. this is one of two cases against manafort. he'll be instanced on two additional charges of conspiracy in washington d.c. next wednesday. that means a possible consecutive sentences up to ten more years on top of what he got today. a fall from grace for the 2016 campaign chairman who played a crucial role in winning president trump the white house. politics reporter with "the daily beast." ken, i have to believe this judge doesn't much like the
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prosecutor, robert mueller. he's being charged and sentenced for something that wasn't really about bank fraud. it's about his association with donald trump. that's my thinking from the outside. what do you know? >> reporter: i completely agree. it was clear before manafort's trial when judge ellis basicalle said as much in comments in pretrial hearings and the only reason he thought paul manafort was in the court room is because he went to work for trump. he said you don't care about the bank fraud and tax fraud. nevertheless, a four year sentence is a shocker because it is soca much lower than guidelis of 19 to 24 and a half years. there were predictions of 12 years. i didn't hear a single prediction of four years.ea
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not only was he convicted of eight felonies but he went on to commit other crimes after he was convukted. he reached a plea deal and lied and broke the plea deal and essentially what judge ellises just said is that conduct doesn't amount much to him and he'sim going to treat him like y otherke white collar criminal. thint statement that manafort made, he did not apologize. he did not express remorse. he talked about how painful this had been and he's been in solitary confinement and humiliated. it was so surprising that some people were like this is a man who expects to get a pardon. ellis did mention he was surprised that manafort didn't express regret but didn't reflect that in the sentencing.
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>> anyway, the judge said he disagree would the 19 to 24 year guidelines. saying these are quite high. i think this sentencing range is excessive. the judge said he has been a good friend to others, a generous person. he has lived an otherwise blameless life. shocking news. >> shocking. as a former prosecutor, i'm embarrassed. as an american, i'm upset. what did we hear paul manafort say after he landed the position as l trump's campaign chairman? how do c i use this to get hole with the russians? and he'll throw that out the window to give him a sentence so far below the guidelines that it is an outrage. just as proud as i was to be in the courtroom when he called out
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mike flynn for being a traitor and disrespecting everything the flag standspe for, i'm just as disappoint would judge ellis who apparently knows better than the guidelines t sentencing commissn who said for these crimes this man deserves 19 to 24 and he said 47 mungtds. it's an outrage and disrespectful of the american people tr >> is it knocking off a convenience store? this looks pretty light, it seems to me to. for the majesty of what we're talking about. >> to be a rich white man in america, you get a whole different kind of justice. >> you think 450e thought he was a wegt wealthy middle class guy. >> he got to keep two homes, $4 million. he was found guilty of $30 million he basically stole from theal american people when he didn't report bank fraud, tax fraud.
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a jury convicted him of eight counts and said i'm guilty of those other counts as well. and then he presents himself as the victim. if his name was pedro, he would be going up the river. >> we have a problem with equity in america. but this guy who stone walls the cases. according to what i read in the sentencing. he gave no help to the prosecution. all that 15 hours they sat in those rooms, nothing came out of it. all he fed them was stuff mueller already knew. he can still get pardoned for his four years. >> there's no way to interpret this sentence in any other way than a federal judge saying mueller and his team have been essentiallybe misleading them,
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mischaracterizing manafort and he this judge is repudiating . >> he really thinks it's a miscarriage? or doesn't like the democrats -- >> this case has nothing to do with collusion or obstruction of justice. which is mueller's mandate but when he finds evidence that manafort is a stone cold thug, is he supposed to ignore that? so he did what other prosecutors would do which is present the evidence to a jury. >> the language with of the mandate says any matters of crime in the investigation to come across. >> so our nation turns its
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lonely eyes to you. you have the power to correct this tragic injustice. >> channelling paul simon. you and ib have been watching this case. we thought it was developing into a story of massive sentencing. he was going to get a big sentencing of maybe 15 years, 18 years and on top of that, perhaps ath consecutive sentencg here in d.c. does that mean he ends up at 10 or does it mean we're going to get more compassion next week? >> he could definitely get more years. i think the question about judge ellis tonight is he a one-trick pony and there can be overreach. if americans have been going to law school throughout mueller probe and learning all of these different things as we go -- we
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eall remember what we learn about our legal system in america. it does not operate with equal force from anyone. and he got the friendly for an skrij who had stacks and stacks of crimes.j and our system found him guilty of felonies in multiple places. >> and he said to me if you're guilty, get a -- get a judge because the judge will look at the facts and there will be no emotion. >> yeah, this guy had emotion and for all the wrong reasons. if this defendant was a young minority who burgaled a house -- >> what do they mean a blameless life? he's been a lobbyist for the pro russian people trying to kill the ukrainian republic.
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that's what he's been doing. z >> he started tampering with witnesses. thank goodness judge jackson, in the federal court in washington d.c. can now clean this up unjust mess that judge ellis made. >> what are the point of guideline if you get 19 to 24 and you come in around four? yes, you can find exception of someone that was really sorry and a first time ofender and did all the a right things might be candidate, but why with everything that he did post conviction and try to lie to mueller and up is this the system and obstruct justs, why would he be a candidate for something like this? >> you can do politics and everything. trump's watching in real time. he's probably watching it on fox
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and he's learning his guy he thought was going to face maybe 15 to 18 and more next week. he sees him get a much better deal. is he going to give him a pardn to wipe away the four years? >> i don't know if he's more likely. i know there were reports -- rudy giuliani is that white house. there's a lot of pardon talk. people will have the idea it wasn't that serious. we've dock ynumented how seriou was. if he gets the maximum in washington that would put him at about 14 years and he'd still be under the guidelines of what normal people would get in virginia. is this the kind of sentence,
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depending on what happens next week that gives people on the wrong side of mueller that even before they get to trump they may have sentences they ask get out inge good behavior and be alivali alive at the end of it. so i think this has real implications. >> the way these guys commute the sentencing. bill cosby and manafort comes in with his wheelchair.co the performance. the clothing choices today by manafort. the wheelchair, the jump suit or whatever it was. some white shirt underfleegt it. is this gamesmanship? >> it worked for paul manafort. he got slap on the wrist. one of the things we know paul
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manafort is he handed private polling data to a russian operative >> to help the russians interrupt our campaign. >> and the judge in d.c. found out he lied about that. this is a thug and he needs be put under the jail and this judge did exactly the opposite. >> the headlines tomorrow in the paper. i still think of the paper the next day what it's going to be. light sentence for manafort. >> no question. >> hey, must have been pretty innocent. right? this is no big deal. four years he knocked off a candy store. what are we talk about here? >> that said one thing i can tell you if you have numerous conversations with people close toeo manafort is one thing theye
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quite concerned about is first off what judge jackson is going to say . manafort will end up spending the bulk of his life in prison. we know attorney generals have eyed against manafort if he were pardoned.an >> there's a double jeopardy. >> there's a statute -- >> the judge next week can compensate for the leniency to put it lightly. consecutive sentences. >> and she will punish him appropriately for what he did. the crimes he admitted and the witness tampering. how judge ellis said he's lived
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a blameless life when he tried to get them to lie even after he was charged with felony offenses, i find that incomprehensible. sglrls is it that greivis what you heard right now in the judge's sentencing? this leniency? he's given one in five years the guidelines provide that is a deal, for not talking, for stone walling, for tampering with w witnesses, his reward is a real break. >> reward is an excellent way of putting this because as you know the peramteres of his conviction are all of the activities he did leading up tohe where he became the campaign manager for donald trump. this is work fing for the kreml government and for him to have stolen money from the peep olof
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the united states and now gets to walk away. there were two houses worth millions of dollars. t and to walk away and put him in the ball park of a pardon shows this is a breach of justice. the judge is about the exact same age as paul manafort. t but he does not have a blameless life. people's trust in the system. >> let me get back to the question here. the enemy of my enemy is my friend. this judge doesn't wliek robert mueller, the prosecution. all of these convictions so far, more than played hardball.ct this prosecutor. he's been hired to do the job, get the bad guys, including crimes that have been unearthed as part of the investigation, going after manafort for that
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reason. is it his way of saying screw you to robert mueller? enemy of my enemy is my friend? >> i think it's less of a screw you to robert mueller than he feels the american system of government has a separate rail and this rail should apply to people like paul manafort. he transmitted that punch by his blameless statement. i'm not so sure if it's all about robert mueller or the prosecution itself. because we really haven't seen mueller's puncht related to conspiracy and other charges that could have been added on. this is about his money laundering and to certain extent the theft of money from the people of the united states really don't seem to matter to the judge. and he's abricated the system we came to trust.
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>> the one coming up next week ruled that he lied about his communications with constance kilmnik. and discussing a so-called peace plan for ukrain that would benefit russia. among their contacts the cigar lounge. a meeting that included rick gates. as mueller's prosecutor told the court and what happened was of significance to the special counsel. and the judge questioned his loyalty to the united states saying this is a problematic attempt to shield his russian conspirator from liability and gives rise to legitimate questions about where his loyalties lie. and an expert on this whole russian thing. the facts they had that meeting.
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i think i went there one night. it's an interesting setting. mostly men i think smoking expensive stoegies. they chose that setting, to me, because they figured would be protected from public observation and to say nothing happened. tell me what it's arer about? manafort has never come clean on? >> and this is not part of what manafort was charged on.ha as direct example of collusion as you would want. paul manafort at the behest of -- and what are they discussing? they're discussing a so-called peace plan for ukrain, which is really a pro-putin, pro-moscow
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peace plan that could lead to the lifting of sanctions impose fwhied u.s. and european union. while manafort is running the campaign for donald trump, and this is important, while russia is attacking the election to help donald trump, he's sitting down with a russian intermediary and talking about a plan that could help russia get rid of the sanctions. if they're not stating this out quid pro quo directly, it sure raises the possibility that that's what they're all thinking about and it's a pity in the mueller filings that we don't have more details on this and i'm sure hoping that inmueller doesn't get to the bottom of this withhe any report that ada schiff and others in congress will tell us what went on and whether there was a grand deal between the trump campaign and
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its manager and on the kremlin. >> we're talking about judge givingng a guy a light sentence and g sayic he ehas had an othe with shameless life when his life was about selling u.s. influence, working on behalf of the bad guys, the oligarchs, including putin, against in this legitimate republic of ukrain and putin wants back in the soviet empire. he wants to rebuild the soviet empire he misses dearly.il and part of getting it back is hiring people that work for money like this guy and manafort.r heetz rar mercenary. they hired an american mercenary to use his influence in the united states government to rebuild the soviet empire. and it's not just brout a judge having warm feelings
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>> this is not where we talk about presumption of innocence. convicted with serious implications. which is why you have to declare when your are doing foreign lobbying because we have laws that saye we don't want you to run for a campaign while working for foreigners. and i think it's quite serious to see that there laid out in open court and have this mindset. whether you want to call it a certa certa certain elite belt mindset. it's not blameless. that's why there's so many felonies. and if paul manafort was so humiliated, as he said, when was he humiliated? when first got caught and
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admitted it? when he committed new felonies which have been proven in court? was he humilyaded when he kept back channel indications going -- communications going, whenom did he have this change heart? judge ellis said i was surprised you didn't express repentance but you get four years out of 20 anyway. and the judge has this power in the system. if we don't like certain outcomes, you need look back that rules and wonder why our system is so tilted in ways that have to do with race and class. bottom line to your point, these are serious crimes and they're not getting a very serious -- >> hold on.ge >> with any government official from russia. thank you, everybody.
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>> well, that's all he had to say. thank you. >> i think we were listening to kevinni downing, paul manafort' long-time lawyer.in that wasn't for the judge or next week. we just heard a denial of something he's not charged with, which goes back to your organizing question on "hardball." whose tlr audience? because they're out there denying collusion.be and i'll tell you this. they don't need deny collusion. and that's for a different audience. >> you got four years for not telling the truth and four years for stone walling, four years for not apologizing. if he ehad, he would have got a trip from disneyland out of the judge. >> you're great on this stuff. >> thank you.'r >> and in the house intelligence committee.
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yovr rr been with us a lot of times on this conversation with russia the criminality involved. the house judiciary committee in terms of impeachment. what happens when you see that criminal courts give him this break? >> my ears are still ringing "lock her up, lock her up" in cleveland. look, the system's going to frustrate us. don't give up. there's still next week. i want to take collusion out of -- and those close thoos president of the united states were involved in conspiracy. it goes well beyond criminal activities and those surrounding the president.
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it go whether the president was involved in those activities whether they influence the policy of the united states between flynn and the saudis. and clearly now with crew yan and mr. manafort. is he less safe because of this conspiracy? >> it's like a mystery story but not so mysterious. in cleveland at the republican national convention and the platform was rewritten by mysterious forces to advance the chargesce against the legitimat government of ukrain. why would something like that there happen under the good offices of paul manafort who works for the pro russian forces against ukrain's forces, ukrain's interest.
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don't we get fingerprints. who changed that and there was manafort taking credit for all of this. i his clients, they know what he did. are we going to find out? >> we're going to find out. at this point in time it's important that we reflect on just what you're talking about. the fact nof mat rb is from day one if was about this extraordinary connection with russia and ukrain that they have been attempting to dominate and the fact of theom matter is it s changing the new world order. and president's policies from designed after world war ii. the new world order is under attack by its primary architect and we have to adjust that. remember mr. mueller and the southern district of new york have different responsibilities
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than the house intel committee and oversight.an mr. mueller's job was to decide who to bring to justice. ours is to educate and inform the american public. >> let's talk about obstruction of justice. you ran it the convection for the president. it seems to me that there donald trump has made it kwleer from the good beginning that he doesn't want justice. he says layoff my friend, michael flynn. he ehad his picture taken with putin. layoff them and when the fbi director didn't play ball with trump, he fired him.t and then he fired the attorney general. and he was personally involved
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in running trump for president. >> it seems to me we have the broad daylight robbery right in front ofht our faces and workin for the other side and they are the other side, the russians. all this stuff has been going on in plain daylight. it's all there.t. what more do you want? >> you forgot the dangling of pardons. it was interesting when they were referencing whether or not someone was seeking a pardon.ng i think the president of the united statesth fortold the pardons he gave to sheriff in arizona. in the same way he offered the dangling ofre pardons for peopl for some time now. we take that seriously. but if we listened to those who wanted to moveos forward with impeachment, we wouldn't have had any of this information about manafort, flynn.
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i do believe we're getting close to a point where we have enough information. brult as a criminal defense attorney for ten years, i can't say strongly enough, you don't stop when you think you have enough, you stop when you find out impa out what exactly took place. i believe key witnesses that follow wills give an extraordinary amount of information. it's also the court of public opinion, which i believe will drive our opportunity we have towardsy this end in the unite states senate. >> nothing's going to crack the republican fay lynx. the more guilty trump looks, the more they're with him. by the way last month robert mueller's prosecutors floated the idea that he's lied because he wants to be pardoned by the
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president. >> i don't talk about that. i think the whole manafort trial is very sad when you look at what's going on. i think it's a sad day for our country. he worked for me for a very short period of time but he happens to be a very good person and i think it's very sad what they've done to paul manafort. thank you very much. >> it was the entire time he was running the campaign. not a short time. trump telling t "new york post." why would i take it off the table? and how did they help or hurt the cause of justice and truth? >> it makes clear that the president has been surrounding
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himself at the highest levels of organization with people who lied and engaged in witness tampering and this continues to be the tip of the iceberg. i know mike was just on and he talked about the interview we had with michael cohen this week and i believe there will still be more indictments to come. i think the information led me to believe members of the president's family could be in legal jeopardy. so i think there's a good bit of investigation to do and i also think we'll probably see more prosecution. >> what do you think is coming before we get a full report? four years instead of 18. but what do you mike of the fact we've been reading a lot about this u ivanka could be in troub.
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jared more so perhaps. are they facing prosecution? >> i think so. they're folks that need to be prosecuted for lying to congress. there's testimony that contradicts what was told to us by don jr., for example. yes, i think there's legal jeopardy for some of trump's family. >> is is there something that giveshi you confident that something like that is coming imminently e? >> that's hard to say because they've run a pretty tight ship over there. and they've run an independent investigation even from the congressional investigation. and i'm sure the special counsel knows everything congress knows. i think it would be hard for
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themor to ignore what seems lik compelling evidence that some folks knew more than they admitted to when they testified before congress. i was saying months go i thought eventually roger stone might be indicted. for a long time it didn't happen and d finally it did and i thin the same could be true for some members closer to president trump. >> i think roger stone is in the business of judge shopping. because you may look for one of those for yourself. thank you so much. let me go to glen. where is this heading now? headlines tomorrow. next week he faces another judge with a different attitude. >> what we just saw was an unjust result.
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however, bob mueller will get the last laugh. when he talk said about the havana room meeting, the cigar bar where manafort is giving over polling data, that is circumstantial evidence of a conspiracy to defraud the united states tode undermine our free d fair elections.ed everybody has confused the silence. he's saving the best and biggest charge for last. a conspiracy indictment is coming. and don't be surprised if we see paul manafort on the unusual hat trick of federal cases. >> what would you need to prove this in court? the president is like a rico leader. he's got people talking about advancing the ukrain cause,
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lifting sanctions. how much does he have to say just check in to me? >> we know robert mueller believes roger stone communicated information about the hacked emails to donald trump. i do think it's not enough for trump to just know about that. but if he was involved in any way with how they're deployed, then he's a co conspiracy. i think the next step will be donald trump jr. -- if there is justice in america. mueller has indicted michael cohen and roger stone for lying to congress.ro donald trump jr. told those same lies. what this verdict today means is we're not guaranteed equal justice under the law.no if mueller wants to prove that's noto true, he needs let everyby
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know don jr. isn't getting a break because he's the president's son. >> larger question. i hate to say larger than justs but it's politics. i've been heard today they may be a little dodgy. if we go after the kids, he will explode and some dams say we don't mind if he explodes because these kids have done something wrong h and if he exploesds, fine. >> they're not a monolith. some are keen to even go after ivanka trump. she's very much someone who some members believe they're not doing enoof scrutinize. at the same time a bunch of new democrats won in the district that are politically more moderate and they're worried about elections.ic
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if they believe they can be accused of a family-focussed witch hunt, they are weighing the political costs there. so it's causing tension and friction within the democratic congance >> i met them years ago and they were well mannered and brought up but they are so much a part of his operation. nepotism doesn't work in most cases. it doesn't work. thank you for your passion about justice. ia guys know your stuff and that matters. ken delaney, mike holly. fabulous having you over fleer this rock 'em, sock 'em. barbara, you've been here watching this thing. were you surprised by the appeal for compassion? the fact he comes in a
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wheelchair? this is theater at the highest level. did it work? >> it did work. judge ellis did take time consider the sentence and come up with this shocking sentence of 47 months. judge ellis has a record of being lenient in white collar cases and sure proved that to be the case tonight.ca >> we're going to go right now to john brennan. what do you make of this? as we say in our business segway, we can't ignore what just happened. it's just and america. >> it's an extraordinarily lenient sentence in light of the extent and scope of mr. manafort's criminality.
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shows there's a lot vested. >> what's it say? >> itit says that he has an attitude towards a person of paul manafort's ilic who has defrauded the government, as was demonstrated. >> does he know what a mercenary is, this judge? you're basisically working for someone who wants to crush the independence of ukrain on behalf of a tyrant, putin. >> calling for many more years. guidelines are used for a reason. but obviously judge ellis felts he could decide unilaterally. >> he said he's had an otherwise blameless life besides jury tampering. >> paul manafort has a demonstrated track record of
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criminal, unethical, unprincipaled cabehavior. >> let's talk about the way these things work together. the wayor in which the russian probe,si which continues. it's really about a conspiracied a vanadvanced by americans. selling out your country >> a number of u.s. persons work would the russians in one form or another, i think it's been 2ke demmenstrated, was this active engagement. i believe bob mueller and his team are going to uncover a lot more that is unknown. there is a lot that special counsel's office -- >> what do you smell coming between now and the final report from mueller? >> i smell more indictments said? >> family dimembers? >> i believe if there are going to be family members, it would
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pea the final raft of indictments. because i think they know if they indict somebody of the trump family, that donald trump would not allow bob mueller to continue. >> you think he'd fire the guy? >> absolutely. >> this gets to the heart of the whole thing the connecting rods. you've got presidential offspring and in-laws, base krae son in law, who were refused fbi clearances. the peace core gets in. what was it? people have speculated his relationship with saudi arab yurks netanyahu, the fact that his own daughter couldn't get a top security. what does that smell like to
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you? >> i don't -- >> they both said don't give these people clearances. >> clearly something that couldn't be resolved by investigators. and as well as his chief of staff and the white house counsel, decide to over rule it for nepotism purposes to give those clearances. i think it says a lot about donald trump and how he totally tramples the system and process and whatever integrity the system has. financial entanglements with foreign entities is something the investigators will look very closely at because they don't want individuals with this nation's secrets to be in any situation that could be comp rus ammed because of the relationships that they have. >> it's always hard to make references.
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i think of him as someone who trashede nato, publicly flirti withpu people like north korea' kim jong-un. and saudi arabia, the killer of an american journalist. flaunt all of the rules as us thinking of ourselves as good guys and we hung out with other good guys and we fought bad guys. it's like trump has jumped the tracks and he's just joining the other side.tr >> i think he has no sense or knowledge of history, the constitution, law, system of checks and balances but more ominously, he doesn't care. he only cares about himself. >> when did you come to that conclusion this is a show up, showing off? >> pretty early on.ow i was skeptical he was going to rise to the occasion.
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i thought he was going to continue toas carry out his duts and work the way he has many years whichha is by skirting ethics and principals and pursuing a very unilateral agenda. >> we're the same age roughly. and i got to tell you when you grow up with the idea that maybe not in nixon's case because he was a mixed bag but harry truman taught us a guy with limited ability who has patriotism will come in and do a good job and make the right decision. you don't have to be a ph.d. or whatever else, ivy league or anything because if you have the rightf instincts, you'll make great president. it doesn't work lat with him. >> if it shows if you're a snake oil salesman, you can get away with a lot. and the people i blame most are
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senators, congressman of the republican party. >> mitch mcconnell. >> how they've held their nose over what donald trump is doing. i think history is going to treat them very accurately which is they really sold themselves baut because of donald trump. >> truman and eisenhower, they really did build this world order that made sense and we won the cold war. >> and the icons of both parties over so many years.ns donald trump is his own person. but he has been able to get a lot of people to kowtow to him. >> could it have been worse? he could have given away the 38th parallel? we're pulling our troops out. >> he put this thing together and it is collapsing.
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it's being done in north korea. but the fact he continues to suspend the military exercises, the ones they rely on to insure the coordination between not justna the united states and soh korea but also our regional partners and allies. this is hurting our national security interest. there's hope now. if he cut a deal with kim jong-un and you get rid of all your weapons and everything else, you get rid of all of it, we'll pull our troops out and leave the door open for invasion i think what perturbed the north koreans was the misrepresentation of what the north koreans were asking for. they wanted total sanction relief and they came out publicly and said no, we don't want that.pu you need to be able to see some
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type of accommodation to move down the path of denuclearization and i'm -- >> did finally get him to vietnam. thank you, john brennan. much more ahead in the breaking news. paul manafort 47 months in prison. much ahead. stick with us. stick with us. ♪ limu emu & doug
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welcome back. we're continuing to follow the breaking news. president trump's former campaign chair was sentenced to nearly four years for eight charges he was convicted of last summer. manafort's lawyer made brief remarks. let's listen. >> as you heard in court today mr. manafort finally got to speak for himself and make clear he accepts responsibility for his conduct and i think most importantly what you saw is the same thing that we had said from day one. there is absolutely no evidence that paul manafort was involved in collusion with any government official from russia. thank you everybody. >> any government official. wasn't that clever?
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joining me is investigative reporter. >> you caught it. he didn't collude with any russian government official. and submitted by his own attorneys and robert mueller's team, paul manafort appears to have collude would a former business partner who the fbi says was an associate of russian intelligence and the meeting was happening because of what a russian oligarch named deripaska was and a quid pro quo between the trump campaign and the russian government. so, yes, nothing we've seen has him talking to a russian government official. notice he didn't say there was no colluding with any russian interests. he did not say that. why?
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because it's probably not true >> and you deal with cutouts. putin doesn't meet at the cigar bar. doesn't show up with a big stoegy and say let's deal. you're -- tell me about the feeling of the jump suit and the wheelchair and call for compassion. there was all that theatrics. >> i think judges can see beyond that. i think judges sometimes fall for that kind of thing but i don't know that had an impact on the judge. it is a low sentence and the sentencing guidelines are not something the prosecutor made up out of cloth. the u.s. sentencing commissions creates those numbers based on real data of real cases around
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the country. the purpose is to have uniformity of sentencing so if you're sentenced in washington or virginia or new york or texas, you're likely to get the same sentence. so when the judge says i think it's too high, he's substituting his judgment for the sentencing commission. and he can but only eif he can explain and i didn't hear that. >> this judge talk gives sentences like he's a sequestered juror. like he doesn't know this whole matter. he doesn't seem to understand the business that manafort's been in all of these years. he's workings as a mercenary for putin's people. >> you raised the exact point i was going to make. the sentencing is not in a vacuum and you really can't
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consider some of the things you've been talking about as it relates because it wasn't charged in this case, his interactions with constantine kimnik. the lies he told to special counsel as part of his cooperation. his lies to the grand jury. when a judge determined he lied on three separate occasions after he's pleaded guilty, that he was involved in witness tampering because he was notified of the charges brought in washington d.c. and i'm frankly very surprised and i don't use those words lightly, that he didn't look at the totalality of the behavior of him in court filings, that he was notified of. if he wants to look at it from
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purely a bank and tax fraud perspective and what other people have been found guilty of before and sentenced to before, i can see the downward move but that's not case here, chris. and another thing we need to consider with respect to the judge and barbara mcquaid who is accurate when she said he has a reputation of being light on white collar crime. what the judge is not understanding and is surprising is that when you look at his conduct and now time served being added to this, there's not much difference between michael cohen's sentence of three years and what is essentially barely above three years for paul manafort and you look at the tax and bank fraud differences and the gulf is enormous. granted michael cohen's also being sentenced for the campaign finance crimes. but it's really very surprising.
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as putin saying my buddy got off pretty easy. a guy that was facing up to 20 years got four, less than four. >> i think the kremlin believes that they now have managed to engineer the u.s. justice system. and it was really an agent of the kremlin. someone who has been paid by moscow for almost two decades now to carry out their operations in the ukrain. i think now is the time. something along the lines of conspiracy to defraud the united states. i wouldn't let this stand and make it clear there are more
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tricks in the bag of the special counsel. >> so much of this case has been about his relations with russia, the obstruction of justice matters. for example going to comey, the head of the fbi, the top police force, investigative unit and saying layoff my director of national security because he was dealing with putin and kislyak and then he fires the attorney general because he recused himself and wouldn't help trump. over and over the president has not only done stuff but doubled down in obstructing justice against himself and tonight he must be having dessert at the white house. >> absolutely. and again this shows the puppet strings go into the u.s. judiciary. whether the judge had any influence doesn't matter. the fact the lawyer came out and
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said there was nothing to do with moscow o, that shows where the influence really lies. >> thank you so much. david corn, as wall ayes, barbara mck barbara mcquaid as always. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. paul manafort was with me for a short period of time. >> donald trump's campaign chairman faces justice. >> he was the most incredible candidate i've ever worked for. >> as paul manafort learns his fate. what we know about the fraud, the deception the collusion of the man who helped elect a president. >> you never lost that confidence. >> plus as democrats try to thwart the strategy, what we're learning about michael cohen's own pardon play.

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