tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC March 15, 2019 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
now. good luck out there. we're covering many different because back in the '90s when gangster rap was popular, in our stories. the white house responding to a music, culture and policies, the bipartisan rebuke on terrorism. obsession with guns is a problem. >> it is a problem and i think, you know -- it's only problem, put it this way, it's only a later we have this beat exclusi problem when it's in certain exclusive. a former fox news reporter hands. talking to congress despite her that's how they have the nra and nda with fox news. all these other oorganizations. we'll get into that and how that led to michael cohen's crime they don't want me to have guns. during the 2016 election. but they want to have guns. we begin with firm detailed and i know it's supposed to be an amendment right. actual news about the mueller probe on a friday night. i don't know which one because the probe is not over despite i'm not into that stuff, to bear many rumors it ouwould have bee arms and all that. a bunch of people with guns are over weeks ago. going to want to use them. there's two federal prosecutors in two different cases stating and that's the scary part about under oath there are at least it. and look at the people who have two, maybe more active quote, ongoing investigations that guns the things they're talking about. it's racist rhetoric. relate to or grow out of this mueller probe. antigovernment. first there's the trump aide but i think it's dangerous turned convict turned star individual whose want to play by witness against president trump rick gates. their own rules.
he's still, as of today, speaking to bob mueller's everything we want to talk about investigators. is that, people who play their we know that buecause of the ne own rules. word that gates continues to >> you were someone pushing up cooperate in several ongoing against that at the time. investigations. legal experts says that implies i'm a big fan. that one would be the misconduct thank you. that's been alleged about the we will be right back. weil wl be right back. ♪ trump inaugural committee. the new york feds are investigating gates the talking about the money trail. there's a maid michael flynn th provided information for quote, ongoing investigations.the lead the case. today the deadline for trump aides on the big questions about donald trump's private conversations with putin and why turn up your swagger game with one a day gummies. the united states president went to such unusual lengths to keep one serving... them secret not from the public, ...once a day... ...with nutrients that support 6 vital functions... that might be normal, but from ...and one healthy you. his own aides and national security staff. that's the power of one a day.
that's not all. monday a separate deadline for 81 trump associates to fork over a treasure-trove of documents on trump's business campaign and white house activitieactivities. so far you might have heard about the legal language. democrats are asking for the information. after you blow through a deadline that sets up the predicate to start issuing subpoenas. you say to the court, we tried to start nice. they wouldn't send us a letter. all of this is designed to deal with things that by definition trumpers associates aren't forking over. either they have a good reason like privilege or they don't the big drug companies don't see they see us as profits. have a good reason and they want to keep it a secret. here is the context to all of we're paying the highest prescription drug prices this as we look to what's been quite a wild week. in the world the more you learn about the so they can make billions? reality around donald trump, the less that he is able to sell a americans shouldn't have to choose between buying medication and buying food for our families. fantasy version of the unds l it's time for someone to look out for us. underlying reality. this is something a person has been following for a long time told us is actually the key to congress, stop the greed. cut drug prices now. donald trump's apparent success.
>> he is an extraordinary grifter, salesman. the way you triumph over adversity. he sold himself. and live your lives. we were astounding he was able that's why we redesigned humira. to sell all the things he sold. we wanted to make the experience better for you. bad con dodos and vodka and now now there's less pain immediately following injection. was able to sell a whole other and removed the citrate buffers. set of fantasies to 46% of the american people. >> he was able to sell those things. humira citrate-free is here. the question is not just the initial sell but the time line. a little change can make a big difference. that vodka business was sort of humira can lower your ability to fight infections. like trump university or trump serious and sometimes fatal infections, airlines or trump steaks or many including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, trump iscasinos. serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. all of them went out of business. the thing that was being sold tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain wasn't real or fraudulent, it fungal infections are common and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, didn't last. if the details in the business are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. matters and the cam campaign don't start humira if you have an infection. ask your doctor about humira citrate-free. activities, the question is how
does that affect the facts that here's to you. americans care about and donald if ywhen you brush or floss, trump's ongoing salesmanship of you don't have to choose between healthy gums and strong teeth. the most important product, complete protection from parodontax himself. has 8 designed benefits for healthy gums and strong teeth. i'm joined with a special panel complete protection from parodontax. right here. when your flight gets in late, it's never too early for coffee. good to have all of you here. oh no no no. your new boss seems cool, >> thank you. but she might not be sweatpants cool. >> is salesmanship and when it who is that ready this early? runs out. >> that's been the question from it's only 7 am. the beginning. you kind of keep waiting for somebody help me. that 46%, now it's more like close call. not quite ready to face the day? 40%, to realize the emperor has that's why we're here no clothes. with free hot breakfast and a warm welcome. i'm not sure it never will with the majority of that minority. book at hampton.com for our price match guarantee. hampton by hilton. >> the majority of the minority is still a minority, right? >> it's also a minority.
donald trump's product right now is liberalteers. it's the first thing he sold that's legitimate. he makes people who see his presidency as a desecration. he makes us suffer every day. i feel like that's what a lot of his followers care about more than they care about the wall. more than they care about infrastructure. that's what they love. they love the fact that after a horrific massacre in new zealand in which the shooter talks about an invasion of immigrants, donald trump is not afraid to go on television and use almost the exact same language, invasion about our southern border. any other president would be cowed by the moment but donald trump's indecency -- >> or rise to the moment. >> the fact he won't rise to the moment. the fact he will never give in to the norms that govern cut with before we go we want to
liberals like me think of a civilized life is what his go over one more story. followers love about him. he's already talking about his the period right after the feds raided cohen's office. supporters kind of mounting some sort of violent resistance in giuliani's associate telling the effort there's some attempt to dislodge him. that he was in touch with giuliani. i'm not sure that that kind of sleep well tonight, he wrote because cohen had quote friends in high places. like cult-like inner core they say it was more evidence trump was trying to get people not to cooperate with the feds. dissoevdi here's the response from that dissolves until something happens that materially effects giuliani associate. them. he says the line sleep well >> the two most speculative tonight, you have friends in thing s when mueller's report high places was a tongue and cheek reference to a garth and when they turn on donald trump. brooks song. the answer is when he's done and we need it's an attempt to use when it's in their interest to do so. great lyrics as a legal defense. as we see the with investigation, trump is like pig that garth song makes the opposite point. pen from peanuts, he's always it's about low places. surrounded by a cloud of dirt where ever he goes. ♪ because i got friends in low the crime and corruption are places where the whiskey drowns there in his business. and the beer ♪ they are there around the
♪ chases my blues away inauguration. they are there in every aspect of his presidency. it's everything he touches. >> for all the garth fans throughout, would that song comfort michael cohen or does the wapgt eight of evidence wil this sound like a made-up continue to get greater. it's so overwhelming now that giuliani dfls? there is a country song, maybe there's no excuse for saying i'm you know it. waiting for one last bit. i had to have this talk with you. he will have to get weak enough that republicans start to bail my happiness depends on you and on him. >> i thought you were going to whatever you decide to do. reference the greatful dead jolene or michael cohen in this case and that would be quoting drummer. we're speaking on day where the president of the united states dolly parten. was forced into vetoing trump set the ambush. something only because it passed let's play "hardball." ♪ both houses of congress with republican support. to do it to veto it as we're going to discuss later in the show. it required him basically good evening, i'm chris matthews demonstrating hesitate he's in washington. as the city and the country committed to undermining his par await the special counsel's final report, the president is
proving that old habits die hard. he said something brazenly new what. the republicans in the senate are going up against him on the and undeniably trumpian, that domestic issue of immigration two years in. there should be no mueller it does seem that facts whether report whatsoever. it's who pays for the wall or what's exposed in the probe does move the ball. >> some of them do care a little misquoting from a right bit about parts of the instituti constitution because they realize there will be a democratic parking light becare will belong to future presidents who might not be on their side. give credit to the senate republicans who dissented on the issue. not enough to override the veto but some. it's the beginning of a crack in the wall, if you will. >> noah, i want to put that in the context this relate to facts. donald trump wouldn't have to look so secretive and fight so hard to hide the putin translater notes and the tax
returns. the position would be i could do anything. the fifth avenue defense. the fifth avenue defense appears to be utter non-sense because certainly if you could get away with that, i'm not going to repeat it on air, you could get away with whatever terrible sundry cons are in the tax returns. it's the opposite. the bluster hides the fact that 46%, one of the weakest results that ever led to a presidency, might drop to 45, 44, 43. before you know it, you're not going to be president again. >> could billion thae that. his supporters might continue to support him but there's stuff so personally embarrassing to him that even this man without shame could be shamed by it. what has he fought back against the hardest, revealing how much money he has or doesn't have. i rbeto o'rourke is millionaire
themselves. h guy that got into the race is richer than donald trump. i think some of the things that donald trump is trying to hide, they won't clip away at his support but his core myth. >> we'll have plenty of time to get to 2020 in 2020. look, you're right. it's more traditional for candidates in both parties to play down inherited wealth whether they bought their way into school or not. donald trump by all accounts has been inflating his wealth. literally like a new sound cloud rap who are is trying to pretend he has more money than he has. kanye says the jet skis in the music video, i admit, we rented them. he didn't have the lifestyle. donald trump is very kanye. i guess they are friends. >> rapper on gold plated tank has inflated sense of ego.
>> with that, let's bring in someone who has the right sense of ego who always claims not to look like robert redford even though he's is known as the washington bar's version. john, good to see you. you are special counsel to three different congressional investigations. we begin with you there. our panel will weigh in as well. >> i'm very encouraged by it. it shows the congress is doing it business. they will get satisfaction from most of the requests they have made. they have to pick and choose which ones they want to fight about. i think that might do better if they define what their objective is rather than saying it's oversight. by that i mean i think if they have to get into a court case lit it will be more helpful.
the courts have made distinctions in grand juries and subpoena fights between whether or not there was a criminal case pending and whether it was a congressional subpoena. in this case i think they need every advantage they can have. not withstanding what the speaker said. >> i feel like i wish you were in our double jeopardy segment earlier this week. i'm kidding. i feel like we're in law school. that brings us to my next question, you're into the weeds that a lot of people are interested in. what does it mean when they defy these subpoena and who will enforce that? you get into nad hler going to e courts and say back that up. jared kushner's defense lawyer has been controversial in the mueller case, he said i don't know of a special who has done
it better. do you view that as optimism, at least about his client and the president? >> there's been a lot of lawyers and targets of investigations over the years that have complimented a prosecutor just before they end up on the wrong end of the subpoena or indictment. as to the other question, people are gathering into the coliseum to see what's going to happen. this will go on long enough that everybody will understand the details but the underlying thing they will be asking is, why are they holding it back. why don't we know what the conversation was with putin? why don't we know what happened up in new york at 666 fifth avenue? what don't we know about the finances and family involvement and the inauguration. those questions that he all understand. a lot of time we have been hearing other pundits say these are all process offenses. lying to congress, lying to a grand jury, lying on statements about connections overseas and
here. i think the underlying story within the process which is less complicated to those of us who think of ourselves as lawyers first, is that the story is right there. >> this was something they sublet originally from the devil. >> i don't have the details of the corrupt deal that's bailed them out. >> they have been under water. this is like the big real estate
deal and it was like many of the thing he's done, it was a disaster. they got under water. it's a lot of speculation about what it will mean. meanwhile you see jared kushner having all of these meetings with foreign entip tieentities. >> y you had another company bail them out. i believe the biggest that bailed them out is qatar. there's a question of how much was our middle east policy really about rescuing. you ask about every foreign move this administration makes goes to how disreputable these people
are. >> it's only three months into divided government. before this there wasn't any congressional oversight. these deadlines are hitting now because they had to give them a few weeks to respond. i'm going to fit in a break. thank you. jaco jacob, stay with me. coming up, donald trump issuing his veto so he is break his campaign promise. later the fall out from reporting on the show on the reporter who will tell congress about how fox news allegedly spiked her story on trump hush money during the campaign. rare insights from an sdny witness regarding trump campaign finance violations. break down later of the so called i didn't make it up. this is real thing. the garth brooks defense for rudy giuliani's associate. jeru the damaja.
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would have blocked his claim for an emergency to seize your american money to build a boarder wall. he was forced to do there with opposition. this coming weeks after he created the longest government shutdown in history to break his promise that you wouldn't have to pay for the border wall because mexico will pay for it. this is remarkable and ridiculous. going to these lengths to do something that politicians rarely try to do to break a d campaign promise and draw toe s attention to it. you wouldn't have to pay for it an mexico would. >> believe me, mexico is paying for the wall. >> this is wall that will work. mexico will pay for it. mexico, in some form and there's many different form, will reimburse us. >> one way or the other mexico will pay for the wall. >> mexico. mexico. >> mexico.
pl mexico will pay for the wall. >> msnbc news analyst howard fine joins me. what does it mean that the president of the united states has gone to these lengths, his first veto against his own party to drastically break and promote the breakage of that defunct promi promise? >> what it means is he's sticking to his theory of politics that got him elected president, he thinks which is to endlessly feed the passions of his base. that's the simple and rather obvious explanation for what he's doing. he's doing it in a political situation where even though republicans are for the most part sticking with him, both he here in washington and around the country. there's slippage around the edges on the question of the the wall itself and the lengths he's going to to try to get it done. >> how does it help his base to
draw attention to the the fact that he's forcing americans to fund this thing. it's one to sell thing to people that may or may not want. it's another to say someone else will pay for it. every one is open to a round if someone else is paying for it. before the payment would come in the pesos. take a look. >> during the campaign i would say mexico will pay for it. i never said this and i never meant they will write out a check. >> they'll pay. they may even write us a check. >> i'm not hearing democratic candidates for the most part or in a sense democrats in general talking -- they don't have much political leverage because they
are against the wall all together. it's a long litany in his lies. >> they may feel he so owned himself, they don't have much to add on this particular one. >> they're not in the discussion about whether he should build wall. they are all against building wall. it show what is a liar the president is. everybody already knows that. i don't think it's necessarily the political point here. >> i don't think you could be more wrong. he went around -- he said mexico will pay for it an people cheered. the people there were excited by that point.
you get the final word. >> all i'm saying is virtually every democratic and the majority and now close to majority of the country doesn't want the wall built at all and never have. >> howard fineman, always like chopping it up with you on a friday. thanks for being here. turning next to beat exclusive on this letter new from congress. nda stormy daniels and why fox news could be on the end of this scoop. we're back in 30 seconds. f this scoop. we're back in 30 seconds
the news tonight, a former fox news reporter is ready to tell congress about the network's role in allegation s t tried to bury a story between donald trump and stormy daniels. we broke this story last night. today it's making many other headlines. the house oversight committee that would request documents related to extramarital affairs and payments of any campaign finance violation as well as an appearance for a transcribed interview with that ex-reporter. this went to her and her attorney. she had the story and was working on it and is now asking one simple thing. let her out of nda to speak about it. her lawyer telling us the client
will comply with congress's request and it is itself overrides fox news's nda. >> do you view this ever been it gets to a subpoena level, this requests itself as something you can comply with regard of fox news for your client's silence? >> yes. anybody throughout. anybody in your audience who has an nda must know the law requires that you be allowed to participate in any government investigation and no nda can stop that. >> joining me now is new york times investigative reporter who has been all over these stories and jacob weisburg had the original details before anyone. thanks to both you have for being here. >> happy to be here. >> i'll start with the easiest question. as a reporter would you be interested in hearing what the rest of what this ex-fox news reporter stay or should she stay
locked up under this nda. >> i don't think we congress to approve fox news is a propaganda. >> that's your opinion. >> i think they would have suppressed the stormy daniels story but i doubt they had it in a usable form. i was pursuing the storm and i remember stormy daniels mentioning she was one of the reporters she was talking to. she decided to take the money from trump instead of going public. it was clear not only would she participate in the story, she was going to deny it. her lawyer was going to deny it. the evidence without her backing it up, with her denying it wasn't sufficient. i think fox's motives could be terrible but she didn't have it in a defensible form. >> that's important that both things could be true.
there could be undue pressure or motivations and a storm that was not in the position to run and a person alternating between reporters and taking money to not talk to reporters. her lawyer makes the point that fox, they deny that this was about anything other than the story not being in reportable fashion and many appointed. . this lawyer is telling us that te ni the denial is misleading. take a look. >> we think that we will be able to show that ken lacortes a liar. >> do you have material about him specifically? >> he didn't stop the story. that's going to be evident. >> you're saying that whole narrative he wrote that he was
the one intervening that he wasn't involved in overseeing that story? >> yes. >> was it someone more senior than him? >> yes. >> was it someone famous? >> we'll let congress decide whether or not to hold the hearing in public. >> i think it's interesting to jux pose the claim that murdoch own fox had an interest and executed suppressing this damage story about trump in 2016 while also recognizing on the other hand that it was fox owned wall street journal that broke the story of one of the other catch and kill operations that happened during 2016 before the election the wall street was the first to report that karen mcdougal had been silenced. the wall street actually led much of the reporting on these efforts to silence these two women who had the damaging stories about trump.
>> i think it raises questions. if you're going to say on the one hand if there's a claim that murdoch that fox was working to silence. >> the rebuttal is sean hannity and roger ailes, running fox who went onto advice donald trump of the debate, that part of the company seems to have more political sway than the journal. i think it's an interesting argument you raise. i don't think it's that helpful. it reminds us of the difference. >> it will be interesting to see who they will point finger at. when she shares her information with congress. >> i would argue -- let me put you a little more. they are pointing the finger at ken lacorte. they are saying there's false cover story. >> they are saying it goes higher. >> if i remember correctly i think the fox story it suggested it may have gone as high as murdoch. that's why i make the murdoch
connection to the wall street journal that did this reporting and helped the silencing of these women come to light. >> there segment is about fox news and not the wall street. >> it's about the efforts of this former fox reporter to basically break her silence and come forward with more information. >> either they have it or they don't. if they can't prove this and making wild allegations then it kind of goes away. if they could go to congress and approve at a high level, fox, not the journal, was doing something wrong that led to michael cohen's confessed crime, they could be a story. want to say they are in trump's camp. they are a dishonest organization that employs honest journalists. megan's point about the journal owned by murdoch is an honest journalistic organization that's maintained its integrity despite being own bid this guy who has
his own motives of sucking up to trump and power. fox's business is complicated. you get hannity doing nothing resembling journal im. you have chris wallace and other people doing something that is jou journalism and trying to do it. it's a complicated picture. >> let's put the wall street aside. let's focus on the comparison of fox having elements of this story in 2016 before the presidential election. slate having many of the same elements at the exact same time. neither of them publiced the story. >> that distinction doesn't take you far because slate is not being credibly accused that would put forward the wrong reason. every one goes to work in the morning. if one person fwogonzalez goes think it helps that much. you're in the middle of it.
final thought. >> you have to recognize anybody worked on stories in which women have been silenced by these secret settlements know the moment your subject has been silenced it's hard to get to publication with them. >> right. i think that's fair point that fwo goes to why there's a larger context. we'll see whether they have the evidence or not. it's one more story that didn't go to press. >> thanks to both you have for being here. rare look inside the sdny trump probe from a witness who has been discussing with both of the people there that you see involving trump nda's and jeru if da the da plrmaja is here. e da pmae his entire platoon was standing next to him. they kept telling me, "you gotta push! you gotta push!" they all got to meet forest, all together. about 50 of them. and they all started crying.
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could be even worse than mueller. we're hearing directly, for the first time from a witness, vo involved in the sdny probe. keith davidson. we were discussing how extense imp his communica ive his communication has been. >> about 1500 pages i gave to sdny upon their request. i will make that available to house judiciary committee. i sat down with the sdny prosecutors. they were about the most comp tent attorneys i met. for a time period of three separate meetings of about 20 hours in total. >> 20 hours. 1500 pages of material. that's a key piece of information from a witness in the probe. that was his first time since he spoke to them. davidson is a key figure because he negotiated both of those ndas. we just don't know who else is talking. we know michael cohen after being indicted there was
cooperating. he told congress his last interaction with trump is under investigation by the very same sdny. i asked mr. davidson about that. >> do you get the impression that thest hand. it's clear that there's -- they're alleging a conunnamed co-conspirators. >> i'm joined by maya wie wlley is a civil prosecutor in the sdny. mr. davidson does not come to the table unblemished or with 100 kr 100% credibility. what did you think of what he revealed? >> i thought what he verevealeds what i expected of the southern district of new york. they are doing the work. they will get everything they can no matter what anybody thinks of the credibility of the
witness. you want to know everything that's out there. if you're getting 1500 pages of documents, that's because you want to know everything out there. if have someone with direct information about something you're looking at, you want to know everything they are going to say about it. they have michael cohen who is being attacked on credibility publicly. whether or not there's corroborating evidence for any of the things he's telling them, they will look to people like keith davidson to get. >> when you see what keith outlined. i want to play one more thing he told us. the sdny, they don't play around. what it means when they get cooperation. take a look. >> i don't think it's at the federal government -- the department of justice or the sdny gives anything away for free. i know they did give mr. pecker and howard immunity agreements
and nonh-prosecution agreements. shortly after that it's my understanding that mr. koe lcohd change his plea to guilty. i think you put two and two together but that's above my pay grade. >> how are we to understand that part of investigation? cohen has given up what he has. mr. pecker and these enquirer guys did something for cooperation bud because of the amazon blackmail they may have lost it. does it mean there's somebody else they arie looking at? >> it's hard to know. what we do know is any time a federal prosecutor is investigating anything, it leads to additional charges. it's like pulling that thread and stuff starts to unravel. that's because the more information you find, the more people you find then the more
potential both people who may be co-conspirators so that's a possibility. it could ben suring everything you need to know about people who are your witnesses or are your targets. we don't know until we know. i think what's important to say here is the southern district of new york will remain extremely aggressive in the pursuit of facts and evidence and they will go after anyone who committed a crime with the exception of indicting a sitting president. >> who does that leave in this investigation? that's what i wonder because at the end of the day if cohen's election crime was done by cohen with not enough people involved, that could be the end of the road. >> are you suggesting any families of the trump organization may have had knowledge that involve campaign finance laws? >> that's what i'm asking. >> i'm just trying to understand
your question. intelligent, careful but leaving us with a sense of where things may be headed within that care. thank you. >> thank you. it's friday and that means we have something you might in the hospital -- not want to miss. jeru the damaja is here. the da. mimini was born extraordinary, with more power for more fun. mini was born to do the only thing we ever wanted to do. drive. to hit start and just go. fast and far. around town and around hairpins. to leave everyone in the dust, and leave rubber on the road. because mini was born to drive. drive for yourself at the mini born to drive sales event. special offers at your local mini dealer. that's where i feel normal. having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected.
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it's time to fall back. i'm joined by jeru the damaja. jeru's top singles have drawn over 10 million on spotify. he lives in berlin and uses the series to look at geography and history around the world. we're joined by daily beast editor in chief. he overseas the mueller probe, trump administration and a will the of other international news. he's worked and written for foreign policy and wired magazine. great to have you both here. great to be here. jeru, who needs to fall back. >> a lot of people but i'm going to say aunt becky. this whole college administration scandal thing not only is it illegal. not only is it cheating but it re-enforces the idea that the wealthy don't have to play by
the same rules that everybody plays by. not only that, i'm concerned with the impact it will have on the children because -- i'm not talking about being embarrassed because that's going to happen in life. i'm not talking about the attention because we live in a culture where attention is the new currency. what i'm talking about is the self-esteem because they told their children they're not good flu enough. they told them they're not able to compete. if they had faith in them they could compete, it's not their ego i'm worried about. that's future. you have a bunch of rich kids with low self-esteem, hyper inflated entitlement. >> i'm worried about the kids that didn't get in that the rich kids took their spot. >> i'm not worried about the rich kids. what kind of world will it be with those kids running it. >> you're saying this is
symptommatic of a wider culture. kids directly in this and but the idea it's not good enough to go to the college you could get into or get the job you could normally get. >> i went to georgetown and that's a site of one of the cheating scandals. i have a message for the one person who can end this. patrick ewing, you need address this full on and if you do, georgetown administration will listen like they will to nobody else. >> how much for your seat at georgetown? >> interesting question. $1 million. >> you know about goop. it's the gwyneth paltrow pseudo science conspiracy pedal, steam
your genitals operation. she was at south by southwest the other day. and she was asked hey, why are you peddling all this nonsense? and her response was i didn't want to give inaccurate information. as a journalist, i'm going to be particularly angry but to anybody, i didn't know i put out accurate information, so i put out nonsense. >> and goop is annoying. >> what i want to know is what's goop really about? >> it's about selling fancy stuff to people with spare time and money. >> you worried about the rich kids. >> what you're talking about is trying to sell people self esteem, value, status and they're trying to buy that. >> it's all the same thing.