tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC April 3, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
which side you're on. early nor cliff, thanks for all your coverage tonight. one note before i go, i'll tell you if you're in new york we have a special panel in new york, jeff rye tubin, republican impeachment lawyer ross garber. you can find out more information at 92 y, 92nd street in new york. 92 y.org. that does it for us. "hardball" is up next. /s congress wants to see trump's taxes. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ good evening. i'm chris mathews from washington. tonight, signs the democrats are getting serious about breaking down those barriers protecting donald trump's personal, business and political dealings. just moments ago, the democratic-run house ways and means committee issued a formal request to the irs for donald trump's tax returns. chairman richard neal wrote the
agency requesting six years of the president's personal income tax filings from 2013 through 2018. and that's not all. neal is also asking the irs for tax returns from companies and the trusts associated with the president. and here is how the president reacted to that news late tonight. >> the chairman of the democratic congress ways and means committee asked the irs for six years of your tax returns. >> is that all? >> that's all. >> usually it's ten so i guess they're giving up. no, we're under audit, despite what people said, we're working that out. i'm always under audit it seems. i've been under audit many years because the numbers are big and i guess when you have a name, you're audited. but until such time as i'm not under audit, i would not be inclined to do that. thank you. >> he pointed out two facts which are not related. that he's very rich and he's very famous.
but the request did not go to him, mr. president, it went to the irs for your tax returns. also today, all 24 democrats in the house judiciary committee authorized the subpoena for the entire 400-page report of special counsel robert mueller. no redactions. chairman nadler says he will negotiate with the attorney general, william barr, but he insists he sees the full report without any compromises. >> are you willing to negotiate any middle ground in terms of redactions -- >> no. >> -- of the mueller -- you're not? >> no. the committee must see everything. >> according to the washington post, some democrats are more aggressive still, even more than nadler, calling for a showdown immediately. quote, many do not share nadler's patience and want the chairman to serve barr with a summons for the report right away. well, today's vote by judiciary democrats comes a day after attorney general barr missed the committee's deadline to deliver the full report. instead, barr has promised to release a partially redacted version to the public while congress is in recess later this
month. we think midterm -- mid april sometime he's saying. barr is also set to deliver prescheduled testimony before the house appropriations committee next tuesday. it is unclear whether he'll answer questions about the special counsel report at all. i'm joined now by democratic congressman eric swalwell who sits on committees. mimi rocah, federal prosecutor, and congressman. i want to go to congressman swalwell. it seems to me this is black and white. the federal statutes require that the irs provide personal income tax returns for the chair of the ways and kmeenz committee, and the senate finance committee. how can the president say it's up to him not to do it? >> it doesn't have to be so hard, chris. he actually said as a candidate he was going to release them. the excuse that he's under audit may sound like a good excuse, but functionally i don't understand what prevents him from releasing them. we now have the majority of the american people want to see any president's tax return, republican or democrat. so we're going to get them.
>> why don't you just ask the commissioner of the irs if he's under audit to start with? >> we can do that. >> the irs commissioner has to decide whether to meet your demand, it seems to me. the irs is being asked for these tax returns. under law they have to provide them. what's trump's mouth have to do with this? how can he get in this conversation? i don't understand it. >> i don't want to play into his semantics. i just want the tax returns because we should know the financial history of a person who leads the largest, you know, economy in government in the world. and so let's just get that. and for a guy who always says he has nothing to hide, again, he sure sounds like he has something to hide. now we're in a position to get the taxes. we're going to get them. it just may not be as fast as we want, but we're going to fight and the law is on our side and the courts will be on our side. >> we'll find out. some of these appointees are toadys or not. for three years the president claimed it is an irs audit preventing him from releasing his tax returns. as he promised at one point, let's watch. >> i will absolutely give my
return, but i'm being audited now for two or three years, so i can't do it until the audit is finished obviously. it's under audit. i'll release them when the audi sitcom pleated. my tax returns are very simple. they are under a minor audit, routine audit as they have been for many years, every year i get audited. at the appropriate time i will release them, but right now i'm under routine audit. nobody cares. the only ones that cares about my tax returns are the reporters. >> you don't think the american public is concerned? >> i won. i became president. no, i don't think they care at all. >> if the audit is still on you will not turn over the tax returns, you will fight to block it? >> nobody would, nobody hands over a return when it's under audit. >> the scrutiny of his personal finances would cross a red line. let me go to carlos ka bella. this is a pretty clear-cut chair of the ways and means committee is taking his time. he's issued a demand, sent a letter tonight at 6:00 eastern time to the irs, which is really
se serving the public. i want to see the returns of this individual american citizen. what's the hold up? >> chris, i think a couple things. number one, the president should voluntarily turnover his returns. it's the tradition in our country and he should just do it the way he said he would. number two, we should change the law to compel every presidential candidate by a certain date to release their returns for x number of years, members of congress can decide what makes most sense. i will say that in terms of chairman neal making this request, there are some risks for democrats in my opinion. the spirit of the law is that the ways and means committee chairman and the senate finance committee chairman can request these records in an effort or as they are attempting to conduct oversight of the irs. i think this is a little outside that scope, so i do think we should change the law. i think regardless of the law, the president should release his returns.
but i do think that this could be a dangerous precedent. >> and you think what would happen? what would be the boomerang here? >> this is something arbitrary in nature and we would be setting a precedent that the ways and means committee or the senate finance committee can request anyone's tax returns for any reason at any time. i think that's a little dangerous. obviously we're talking about the president of the united states. the standard should be the highest. but the law right now does not require the president or any presidential candidate to release the returns. i think that's what needs to change.. >> i agree with carlos. we should change the law in the future. that has bipartisan support. >> congressman, what's wrong with the law right now? what's your version, the 1924 law which says the irs is to turn it over to the chairman of the ways and means committee, the house and the senate finance committee, what's unclear in the law? >> nothing is unclear. the president -- a candidate
should just be required to turn it over. now the president is not going to allow his commissioner to do that. it's going to get tied up in courts and it's going to take much longer than would be a service to the public. >> well, i'd be interested in doing the culling of the herd to find out which are working for the people and which are toadys of the president. steve mnuchin said he would most likely block a request for the president's tax returns. let's take a look. >> have you received any instruction or guidance of any kind about how to handle congressional requests for president trump's tax returns? >> based upon the request, we'll examine it and we will follow the law. we will protect the president, as we would protect any individual taxpayer -- >> you know, maybe that's a double-talk there. that's speaking with a forked tongue as they used to say in the cowboy movies. he says we're going to obey the law. he says, we're going to protect my boss. what's he saying, anything? >> i don't know what he's
saying. the president isn't any other citizen. that's a ridiculous argument. and specifically here where the president has made a claim, which is that because he's under audit he can't release them, first of all, we don't even know if that's true as you pointed out. michael cohen, in fact, i believe testified he didn't think the president was under audit. but that's something that's verifiable or not. and i don't know if him being under audit is a bar to his taxes being released. when you have those kinds of statements going on, it sure looks like he's hiding behind it. i think congress has the absolute right to request them here. and, in fact, it's probably already been done by mueller and much of the analysis of his tax returns are probably already in the mueller report. >> let me go to congressman swalwell . wh swalwell. what do we make of nadler? i think he's a classic chairman of any committee. he's being careful, yet here he is basically getting
authorization today by all the democrats -- all the democrats on the committee of judiciary, all of them saying he now has the authority to go for use of subpoena. where does he stand now in terms of getting the full mueller report? >> we're going to get the full report, chris. we also want to follow the rule of law, which we are so offended that the president doesn't. so we're going to expect them to do the right thing and when they don't we will subpoena it. the republicans voted just a couple weeks ago 420-0 with democrats to get the full mueller report. their vote today against it is contradicting the earlier vote that they had. chris, again, going back to the president could just voluntarily do this himself, if he is 100% exonerated, then he should just order his attorney general to give us 100% of the report. >> to your point, it was just three weeks ago as you say, the republicans in the congress -- democrats in a bipartisan vote urging the president -- urging the justice department to release mueller's full report to congress. that bill explicitly called for the full release of congress to any report, special report
counsel mueller provides to the attorney general. everything should go. however, during today apartments judiciary committee, president of the same republicans were adamant in opposition to the subpoena. >> in the face of laws and rules, he finds inconvenient, the chairman demands our top law enforcement officer to break the rules and the regulations and the law. this is reckless, it's irresponsible and it's disingenuous. >> it's obvious to me that this is just a continuation of an attempt to undermine the president of the united states. >> enough is enough, for heaven's sakes. let's please move on. >> that's one of the great birthers of our time. what a joke. but let me ask you -- let me go to carlos on this question. again, i don't know what's going to happen here. it seems the democrats do want to get the full mueller report so they can get it and release all of it to the american people as much as they can and yet the white house and the attorney general appointed by the president, looks like they're playing a game of, well, we'll let you know.
we're going to show you. >> this one is a lot easier, chris. i agree with eric. congress should definitely get an unredacted report. the chair nan nadler is being prudent. he's being patient and measured. he's giving the attorney general the opportunity to deliver that report to congress. if that doesn't work, now he has the support of his committee to move forward. so i think he's being prudent. i think he's taking the right approach, and i think politically it's important or democrats not to seem too anxious in this process and allow the administration the opportunity. >> congressman swalwell? >> well, we also don't want to do what the president does, chris, which is not follow the rule of law or the honor code. some things are not written in law, but there's customs and traditions that we follow, which is you ask for something voluntarily. if they don't give it to you, then you issue the subpoena. but just like donald trump said he's going to give us his taxes and he didn't, just like he said he's going to release the mueller report now he doesn't
want to, we're now in a position with the subpoena power and the courts on our side, we're going to get all of this. >> mimi, how is this going to work out in the courts? i just see a lot over the horizon coming over this year. you know, we thought it was more likely for impeachment. maybe it's more this year we're going to see real court battles over information. >> it's early. it's only april. there are a lot much battles ahead. we're no longer powerless and i carry myself with the confidence that the american people gave us the ability to put a balance of power finally on all of these abuses. >> mimi, the subpoena power is really what they fight over. nixon didn't have it. bill clinton didn't have it. the subpoena power often makes the difference. it's the one weapon that the people trying to get to -- it's hard to stop them. can the democrats win this fight on all this stuff, from the tax returns to the mueller report? we're going to go into questions later in the show about the inauguration, who paid for it, what they got for it, questions about who are the people hanging around mar-a-lago, like -- sort
of like gangsters and gamblers hanging around the locker room at a basketball game. there's a lot of sneaky stuff going on here and the question is are we going to get the answers? >> yeah, look, chris, in many ways i think court is a bad place for donald trump, and it has been over the past two years. whenever things have been litigate and had gone to court, usually when the facts come out, they don't look good for donald trump. if you remember, amy berman jackson, the judge who sentenced roger stone said, court is a place where facts still matter. and so i think that to the extent this is going to get litigated in the courts, at the end of the day, the right thing is going to happen here. and by the right thing, i mean the facts coming out, whatever they are. >> and, by the way, president trump is totally wrong because anybody you talk to -- certainly anybody on the democratic side, i think a lot of independents do want to find out what this president's economic situation is. they want know what he's been up to. they certainly want to know what his tax returns tell us about his dealings with russia, trump
tower, the whole works. anyway, thank you, u.s. congressman swalwell, mimi rocah and former congressman carlos ka bella. coming up, new concerns at mar-a-lago. investigating chinese intelligence operations targeting the president at his winter white house. plus biden's explanation. >> i want to talk to you about a whole lot of issues and i'll always be direct with you. today i want to talk about just the support and encouragement that i've made to women and some men, have made them uncomfortable. >> tonight we'll show you his promise to be more respectful in the future and the clearest indication so far that he's running for president. and in a free wheeling speech to house republicans last night, the president made a number of outrageous claims. tonight a republican senator is calling one of those claims idiotic. much more ahead. stay with us. could there be another around the corner? or could it turn out differently? i wanted to help protect myself.
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welcome back to "hardball." president trump affectionately calls his mar a lago resort the winter white house. unlike the real white house, it costs $200,000 to get access to the president. once paid, the guests are free to wander the property even when the president is there. over the weekend, while the president was visiting his club, a chinese woman bypassed security and gained access to the reception area. secret service arrested a woman after they realized she shouldn't be there. a search of her belongings turned up four cell phones, a laptop, thumb drive with malicious hardware. possible chinese intelligence targeted the president after the owner of a massage parlor was selling access to president trump and his family. all this is unrestricted for the club. in 2017, members of the club snapped pictures of president
trump and japan's prime minister huddled in the patio as they discussed the response to the north korean missile launch. a month later president trump told the president of china the u.s. bombed syria during dessert. chocolate cake, i believe. democrat from illinois and intelligence committee. author ever mar a lago, inside the gates of power at donald trump's presidential palace. i want to start withica katie o this. do you we know who the woman is in is she a person on the loose or sort of a concern who has enough money to get from shanghai and finds herself in mar a lago and have enough mandatory evacuation tow find her way? >> that's what they are trying to find out. whether she was a striver looking for a selfie or part of something more organized.
16 hours into the investigation. not a lot is known. >> she doesn't speak listen and she found her way into a club and knew which airline to take and knew how to get there by ub uber. >> they are organized on chinese social media. on we chat, events that mar a lago are advertised. turning it into a tourist destination and people like cindy yang who own the massage parlors are part of the coalition, they call themselves in south florida of asian republican who is seaz these events in china and people come over. this has been happening for a while. we don't know whether or not this woman had connections to something more organized or if she just wanted to take a look around. >> what do you make of this? mar a lago has become a highly pri priced kissing booth. you can meet him on the golf course and hang out with him at the 19th hole and he can be your
buddy for the price of admission. it is a kissing booth. that's what it is. >> it might very well be, but when do their profits come at the expense of national security? they have open membership and the events that are open to virtually everyone and selling access to the president through these events. you asked the right question which is, is this person tasked by the prc, the chinese people's republic to collect intelligence on the president? what are we doing to stop that and what is getting in the way of that at mar a lago? >> president trump used his club's membership roster as a short list of political appointees. according to "usa today," trump appointed at least eight current or former members of his clubs in the administration. like five members have been nominated and or current foreign ambassadors like south africa.
serious business. let me go to lawrence on this thing. give me a picture of what it's like down there. people milling around to rubberneck and look for melania or the president? >> no. it's $200,000. you can buy your way in and it's a beautiful place, but is it a place where the president of the united states should spend his weekends? there are roughly 10,000 people who come in and out during the season. all kinds of people. the security is a serious problem. i lived down there in the winter and walk on the beach when you go down the beach, you can walk right in and go up to the pool. i'm glad this happened in terms of security issues. there is a major security problem here and trump will insist on station here because he needs to be stroked constantly and walk around and have people tell him how great he is, but it's not great for the presidency of the united states. >> it reminds me of mickey mantle on 59th street.
he used to be there once in a while. you get to see mickey mantle. is that what it's like? it's spotting the president is part of your big night. your thoughts? >> the guy sit there is for three hours and people are delighted to be there and the access is there. what people use that for, just sitting there. what is $200,000 for people? one guy was insisting they take his check for $200,000. he wanted to get in the door. to these people it's like $5 for the rest of us. >> thank you for coming o. in april of 2017, president trump launched a strike on syria while eating chocolate cake with president xi. here's his interview on fox. >> i was sitting at the table. we finished dinner and now having dessert. we had the most beautiful piece of chocolate cake that you have ever seen. president trump xi was enjoying
it. i was given the message from the generals that the ships are locked and loaded. what do you do? we made a determination to do it. so the missiles were on the way. >> congressman, what do you make of that? intimate surroundings, but not exactly our best friends and they are watching the can president be commander in chief while he is eating chocolate cake with the president of china. >> this is more important to find out the answers to the intelligence chief. what do we need to do to basically safeguard our national security secrets at mar a lago and what's getting in the way of that. we have classified information flowing back and forth with mar a bag lago all the time. that's why they sent cindy yang
before that. she has been using this place as a hub for her access operations as well. >> the second woman is the who runs the parlors? >> the former massage parlor owner who has been selling access to these events where president trump has apparently been present. one other piece of this which i think your former guest mentioned. there is an ethical element as well. the president uses his star power in part to increase the allure or appeal as a place to do business and a place to have events. i think this whole mess is in part created by a desire to make a lot more money at mar a lago and jeopardizing our national security. >> lawrence, i think you find a new casa blanca. all the strange people find their way in somewhere between nazi germany and allies.
where anybody can come in and leave. strange place. thank you for coming on tonight. as always, thank you for your reporting with the times. joe biden speaks out and said he gets it and promises to be more respectful of people's personal space. does this put a lid on the controversy? it continues to be an issue and he is going to run for president. the guy is running. he made it clear today. stay with us. he made it clear today stay with us ese? huh? these are the ladies nuts. you gotta get the other one. nut-rition believes nobody wants to get less. and we set out to prove it. her pack is 20% more than his pack. right. so, i want more! exact same price and i get 20% less. well...i mean! i'm not allowed to actually buy that one?! right. because you're a man. i feel taken advantage of! i feel discriminated. do you think men and women should get the same thing all the time? yes! ♪
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>> welcome back to "hardball." a major story breaking just this moment. the "new york times" reporting that some of robert mueller's investigators say william barr failed to adequately portray the findings of the inkwquiry and we more troubling than mr. barr indicated. those investigations are concern that because mr. barr created the first narrative of the special counsel's findings. the times puts it, it's the first evidence of tension between mr. and the special counsel's office. adam, to me, what's the lead here? the lead that there is dirt here or that barr did not release? >> the lead is that there is a nearly 400 page report with
possibly troubling information about the president and his activities. maybe it doesn't rise to the level of a crime, but for the special counsel, it didn't exonerate the president. >> the failure by mr. barr, it sounds like his concern in the report that mueller didn't make a decision on the issue of obstructions. he thought he should have. >> yeah. sorry, repeat the question? >> according to the report in the "new york times" that is moving now and will be in the paper tomorrow, you were part of writing it. mr. barr was upset when he got the report from mueller and did not conclude one way or the other whether the president obstructed justice. >> it's our understanding that the main justice department fellow thought that mueller punted on the issue and mueller should have made a decision and
that's what he was tasked with doing and he didn't and left it in the hands of the politicals. rod rosenstein or barr himself or the appointees. the purpose of the special counsel is not do that. >> mr. barr had to make a decision and he said he wished that mueller made a call on obstruction of justice to exonerate the president on collusion, but since he didn't make a call, he believed comey was wrong when he chastised hillary clinton. he was not willing to indict because mueller had not made that call and he had to c exonerate. >> there are thoughts on that. there is a cannon here that barr did to hillary clinton what comey did, by throwing in that line from the special couple's office that he was not totally exonerated. some argue that's not fair like
he said hillary clinton was careless. >> barr decided it was wrong to hurt the reputation of someone unless you are going prosecute? >> yeah. like i said, one can make the argument about the exoneration and it wasn't helpful to trump on the larger point. -- >> we lost adam goldman. what a big news story that is. there is tension between mueller and barr. real tension. we will read about that tomorrow certainly in detail. joe biden is making his first remarks from a number of allegations with women they felt his contact was inappropriate. et his contact was inappropriate. age-related macular degeneration, amd, i wanted to fight back. my doctor and i came up with a plan.
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"hardball." former vice president joe biden addressed allegations from four women of physical contact they felt was inappropriate. the first time he ever did this on television in a video posteda twitter. he explained his hands on style, but said he understands times have changed. >> social norms have begun to change and shift and the boundaries of protecting personal space have been reset and i get it. i get it. i hear what they're saying. i understand it. i will be much more mindful. that's my responsibility. my responsibility and i will meet it. but i will always believe governing quite frankly is about connecting. about connecting with people. that won't change, but i will be more mindful and respectful of people's personal space and that's a good thing. >> here changed a possible announcement saying he would be talking about a whole lot of issues in the coming months. heidi heitkamp from north ka
dakota and washington bureau chief. let's talk about joe. susan, as a front page reporter, how did you read his statement? it was the joe biden we know talking straight to the camera. do more women step forward with allegations that he made them feel uncomfortable. secondly, how does he handle it when he is getting questions from reporters. he was not taking questions here. he was speaking to the camera. he's going to have to address this in interviews. that will be a tougher forum than he faced with an aide that looked like a cell phone camera. >> give me a question that would be hard for him. >> a question that would be hard for him is does this reflect a generational difference that is going to dog your campaign not just when it comes to how you
relate to women's personal space, but on other issues in a party that seems to be moving to a new and rising generation. that's kind of the broader question he faces. this is a one symbol of an issue he will have to address about whether time passed him by or whether this is a possible path for him to take. >> senator, what do you think? >> joe is joe and everyone who knows him well knows that he is always in your space. he connects and connects not only by being empathetic and by touching people. one of the things that was predictable is you would hear concerns about violating that permanent space. >> you heard this before? >> everybody knows if you know joe that he is going to hug you and reach out and make a physical connection along with a personal connection. >> does it ever bug me? >> never me. i think in part when you think about the intent of who is
reaching out, you know that that's to make a connection and say hi. it's to demonstrate friendship and warmth and empathy of what you are going through. >> i have known him forever and i thought he was genuine. whatever you make of his answer, it's him. >> we are looking for authenticity in people and that's a great characteristic for a presidential candidate. >> susan, the times is breaking a big story in the minutes right now. the question now is, we all thought and i think it's a fair statement, when we got that little four-page letter of the 400 page mueller report, we knew it was not comprehensive and wasn't going to tell us the conclusions and now it's leaking out of the mueller team that they didn't have the important facts that are troubling for the president. >> we're knew it was not going to be complete, but was it a fair rendering reflecting what the overall report concluded.
is it going to fuel the calls to release the full report. i don't know when when and the path that will take, but this is just fuel on the fire that says the american people have a right to read the full report so they can assess for themselves what they can think about the behavior of the president and those around him. >> i'm the oldest person in this trio and -- >> not by much. >> but when we want something, the american people get it. >> you can't say i'm totally exonerate and good job and see, we told you there was nothing else and not show the report. you have to live up to your commitment when you said you would release it and show the report if you want us to believe that you have been completely exonerated. >> the question is what's in there? we know they have a lot of evidence of collusion. a lot of meetings that are unexplained and a lot of dots to
connect. mueller didn't connect them in a criminal way, but all this stuff must be in the report. why were they meeting at trump tower and the cigar bar and with kislyak all the time? why did they change the platform with russia and the ukraine? all of this stuff would have been a firestorm if it came out at once, but it dribbled out to us. i think there is more. your thoughts? >> we were back to where we were before it was submitted. mueller must know more. we want to know with him. what accounts for president trump's attitude towards russia which he displayed since his campaign? is it nothing or something nepharious? i think that's what americans would like to find out. when 80% of americans say they want to see a government report be made public, it will be made public. that's the democracy in which we
live. >> i can understand why president trump plays ball with netanyahu and most of us are pro israeli. the evangelicals love it and he's their strongest base. why is he so kissy poo with putin? he doesn't get a vote out of it. >> what we learned over the last many months, the mueller report is going to speak for itself. we shouldn't speculate on what's in it and presume we know what's in it. let's see what's in it. if he's afraid of that, do you have to ask the question why? why is the president afraid of letting us see what's in the mueller report. >> we will find out. i agree with you on the motivation. he doesn't want to us see it. heidi heitkamp from north dakota. a new book on barbara bush. new h smooth moderate to severe lines
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more on that breaking news. a bombshell news on the mueller report. i'm rejoined by eric swalwell on the intelligence committee. let me ask you the key committee you are on tonight. now it comes out what a lot of us suspected. mueller had more to say than barr wanted us to hear. >> chris, this shows why we need to get the report as soon as possible. the fact that investigators
would express this concern shows the situation stepping back. this whole investigation launched because a foreign adversary attacked us. russia attacked us. the questions about people in the trump campaign and administration and transition who worked with them and those are unresolved. if we are going to protect ourselves in the next election, this is a call that we better get this report and get to work. >> let me go over a couple of concerns raised by this report. there is more in it that is troubling about donald trump. what is that saying to you? trouble that never came out through this four-page summary by his attorney general. >> it shows that we have always been skeptical about someone who would solicit this job in a 19-page letter and write a summary that produced 37 indictments and six guilty pleas and 500 search warrants and summarized with a four-page
letter that had 84 words from the 400 page report. we should be skeptical of that and demand the full report. >> the second point raised is that robert mueller and his team never imagined or did they want it to happen that the attorney general would put a quickie weekend version of their report before the american public would shaped public opinion that the president was off. he was exonerated on the issue of solution and it was 50-50 on the other one on obstruction. apparently that was not the right shape that mueller intended the public to get when they got the first word on this report. >> chris, we are going to get that report now and should not rely solely on the attorney general's spin. he should not have been confirmed by the senate because of his bias. he should have recused himself and not been allowed to make that decision. my fear is that the rule of law in this country erodes when
people can't have faith on an independent department of justice and get an attorney sdwronl protect the president rather than the bals on box. glen, the "new york times" is reporting some of "new york times's" associates that william barr failed to aide quaidly portray the inquiry. my thought -- i think a lot of us thought that the gene us of barr was first impressions. they didn't get the mueller report. they got the barr report. they got a strong impression and got scott free. >> here's what i'll say. fbi agents are usually vault-like in their refusal to step outside their lane and talk about a pending investigation or a recently concluded investigation. this could be a sign that what the investigators know the evidence shows about donald
trump's behavior may be far more dramatic than even we imagined. we have all suspected it's more dramatic than barr's instantly clearing the president of obstruction, which makes no sense after mueller himself said he could not exonerate the president. we all suspected something was a miss there. we don't want to speculate what's in that report, but as the congressman was saying, the good news is one way or another, congress is going to see the report and the people are going to see this report and i think if barr was covering it up and downplaying it, that is going to spell more problems and not less for the administration. >> this is another point in the report tonight by the "new york times" which people read tomorrow morning. he didn't, mr. and his team did not think that mr. barr was going to come racing out 48 hours later with their report. four-page summary.
they thought it would take a while to get out or redacted. they had no idea he was going to make this presentation that sunday night. >> i'll tell you, it was so surprising when you read in one sentence that mueller cannot exonerate the president and barr without legal reasoning or analysis and without any factual support included in his letter he said let me jump out and clear the president even though mueller can't based on the evidence. that looks like yet another variation on the president and his people trying to put false information in the public square, trying to poison the will of public opinion and get people thinking, i guess there has been clearance of both experience and obstruction and what happens when the mueller report comes out and public opinion will have to dig out of the hole in which bar and trump has put it. maybe that's the game here. if it's a game, i think barr is
going to be exposed. >> breaking just tonight and will be in the paper tomorrow, the mueller people, the investigators who talked to the times said they were not happy with the way that mr. barr, the attorney general presented their report in the summary. there was more troubling information about the president that did not get through. that's a big part of the story. mimi, what do you make of this? maybe it took all these weeks to get the truth, but it's coming out. >> i was on your show earlier and i think i said the facts are not good for donald trump when they come out. this is what a lot of us have been saying since the day barr released that letter. we can't look at barr's conclusions, we need to see the facts, whatever they are. mueller did not write a 400 page report to say nothing here to see. he investigated this for almost two years and there going to be facts in there that are probably good and bad for the president,
but they all need to come out. bash inserted himself in this process and putting out that conclusion at the point where we didn't have all the facts. was absolutely the wrong thing to do as congressman swalwell said. it looked so political and he should have stayed out television and let the faxes come out when it was time for the whole facts to come out. >> this is something that came out over the last couple of weeks before the breaking news tonight that mueller's people are not happy with the way barr presented their information after two years. we need to know a lot more about whether a guy should go to jail or be impeached or not. all these commission reports over the years have been meant to help the american people understand what happened. i think that's the thing that we will find amazing information that has nothing to do with whether they caught the president with a capital crime
or not. your thoughts? >> there is a difference between being charged criminally and not rid rising to the level we want for the president of the united states and our military that knows the deepest secrets of our government. if there is a compromise that the situation that he is in with the russians or that people on his team have put themselves in need to know. this is always about the future. we have to talk about it this way. we have an election coming up. just to determine that we can't see what's in the report, we can't protect the american people. >> i want to finish with a question which i haven't been able to get to. one of the points in the "new york times" report tonight will be in the paper tomorrow. there is tension between the mueller operation which is a two-year operation and the johnny come latelies of william barr and his people. what do you know about that? the mueller people are not happy with the barr people.
>> here is what that tension is being produced by. mueller and his team of investigators and career public servants who are not 13 angry democrats. they are independent, hardworking, career public servants who are all about investigating fairly and fully and getting to the truth of the matter. if you have a team of law enforcement agents and prosecutors who worked 22 months to get at the truth of the matter and then they see their investigation being misrepresented and their findings and conclusions being twist and contorted by an attorney general with his own agenda to protect the president, that's where the tension comes in. i have to tell you, i believe once this report comes out, the truth will be out and it doesn't look like it's going to end well for barr. >> i want to go to you. the supreme court. i lived through watergate and
the rest of this stuff. these cases come down to somebody has to break the tie between the executive and the legislature. do you think the supreme court even though it's a 5-4 supreme court republican saying the american people need to see the report? >> i do, chris. i probably have an oversized faith in the judiciary, but i believe at the end of the day that judges believe in information and truth coming out. the fact that this now smells more like a cover up will weigh more in favor of that rule. >> congressman, you think barr will cut his losses before he is villainized completely and put out the report now? >> just come forward now with the full report. it's clear that there are questions about barr's evaluation of the report and the best thing you can do for
transparentran transparency and the law and give it to congress and the american people. >> this story keeps breaking on us. the "new york times" has been incredible. no wonder trump hates them. they keep breaking this stuff out. >> i agree with mimi. i can be accused of having an oversized faith in the judiciary which has proved time and again they are not going to be some kind of a lackey for the president that appointed them. ultimately the supreme court will get it right if they are asked to pass on it. what we learned today as a guarantee the entire report is going to come out and sooner rather than later and barr may have just made one of his worst miscalculations. >> mnuchin will be of no help because he is part of the army in the executive branch. this is an embarrassing executive branch. remember the judiciary and the intelligence committee and represents the people of california.
thank you. you are both great. we will have much more on the breaking news tomorrow night. when we come back, we will have susan page with a great new biography about barbara bush. all in with the great chris hayes starts now. good evening from new york. we have big breaking news tonight. what appeared to be the first ever leak from the mueller team sending a shot to the attorney general. reporting moments ago that some of robert mueller's investigators told associates their findings were more damaging for the president than william barr revealed in his synopsis. to interpret this breaking story, he was fired from that job by the president. his book is called doing justice. this is a big deal. >> yeah. it is. t