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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  May 15, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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what makes the issues and attitudes. what's going on heading into 2020. we call at this time deciderless. if history service, the people you are hearing from will be just that. if the presidential candidates including trump want to win, they don't want to miss it either. that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on all in -- >> this is the white house claim ing that the president is a king. >> the white house told congress they cannot investigate the president. >> for looks like a redo. >> the new claim in a letter from the white house with congressman jamie raskin and senator chris van hollen. tammy duckworth on what looks like a white house attempt to provoke a war with iran. outrage over alabama. >> women health care is under attack. >> it's wrong and we will fight
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back. >> even some on the right say the attack on legal abortion as gone too far. >> i think alabama has gone too. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the trump administration is continuing an assault on continuing congress's roles. a day after the personal lawyer told a gob smacked judge, congress shouldn't be able to investigate if the president engaged in corrupt behavior. a-electee letter was sent to jerry nadler not only refusing to turn over white house records, but more importantly claiming that congress has no standing to investigate trump at all. he wrote "the committee is not a law enforcement agency thus the committee cannot justify inquiry by searching for possible evidence of false claims of obstruction of justice. more vaguely, it is launching an investigation into nonexistent threats against the rule of
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law." this ignores the constitutional role of congress and the congressional oversight manual that lists among the purposes firefighter congressional oversight to prevent executive enproechment on powers and alleged instance of administration and arbitering abuse, waste, dishonesty and fraught. it ignores the counsel opinion on why a president can't be indicted which heads in part, in the event a suspicious of serious wrong-doing by a serious president and the media and congress through its own powers would likely pure sue evidence as well. he also argued that congressional democrats can't just have a do-over since they didn't like the results of the mueller report which is pretty rich considering republicans ran six investigations from benghazi from the house of representatives alone and tlooi open probes into the origins of the russia investigation. speak of do-overs, donald trump,
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jr. will get another chance to explain his actions in the 2016 campaign to the senate int intelligence committee. the president's son reached a deal with the committee for a seemingly generous time and subject-limited interview, considering he will avoid the subpoena that had been issued by the republican chairman, richard burr. al ice have put significant pressure on burr to drop the subpoena. lindsey graham said he would take the fifth. the trump white house continued to stonewall another investigation as steve mnuchin refused to release the president's taxes, ignoring a clearly written law. >> there is a difference in interpretation between congress and us in the hospital of justice around this law. this is why there are three branches of government. so if there is a difference of continue, this will go to the third branch of government to be resolved.
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>> speaking of this afternoon, jerry nadler, the recipient summed up why the behavior of the trump white house is so dangerous. >> the white house is making the out ragious claim that a president cannot be held accountable in any way through the american people. the justice department can't hold him accountable since a sitting president cannot be indicted and congress cannot hold a president accountable. this would make the president above the law. we of course totally reject it. >> a member of two committees trying to conduct investigations into trump, jamie raskin of maryland who sits on the judiciary and oversight committees. what is your understanding based on the arguments before the judge yesterday and the letter received of the theory, the legal theory under the assertions that the white house counsel and the president's personnel attorney? >> that the president is
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essentially a constitutional monarch and stands above congress and the courts. that's a complete inversion of the constitutional design. under our constitution, congress is in article one. we are the law making power and receive the sovereign power from the people. we can impeach the president and executive officers. he cannot impeach us. he has it backwards. congress is in the process of reasserting our constitutional preemenance. we are not just a coequal branch. we have a president who thinks he is a king and acting in a lawless manner. >> you mentioned impeachment that strikes me as part of what i understand to be the case. they seem to be making the argument that there has to be a legislative purpose. wouldn't the beginning of impeachment proceedings vishiate the legal arguments they are making? >> well, i think it would. you're right about that. of course it's unnecessary
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because the supreme court repeatedly said the power of inquiry is integral and essential to the legislative branch. think of it as the first amendment condensed into the legislative process. this is how we discuss things and get information and decide what to do. never before has any court said that congress has to give the executive branch a reason for getting information about our government. this is our government. these are our leaders. if you don't want to be involved in the process, resign and get out of here. otherwise you do what the president did during the hillary clinton e-mail investigation and during benghazi investigation and fast and furious. you turn over the information. that's it. that's the role of the executive branch. this is an unacceptable tempt to elevate the president into a king. we are not going to accept it and we will use every means to prevent this take over from happening. >> you say that, but i want to give you an interpretation of the facts and the actions of congressional democrats as many
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people seem to get your response. a lot of people think you are terrified of impeaching him and the consensus is it leads to backlash and nancy pelosi said he is baiting you towards it. because you are terrified, you are not going do it, but you have to pretend that that's what you are pursuing and you get the hemming and hawing and kicking the can down the road that amounts to nothing. >> i don't think that's true. obviously it's got big implications to impeach the republicans and impeach bill clinton over trivia compared to the high crimes and misdemeanors that the president is ikely guilty of having committed. we are not going to fall to their standard. we will take it at our own pace and confront the lawlessness of the administration. if they think we are going to be goated into impeaching to suit them because they have no public policy agenda other than searching for the deep state
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experience behind the investigation, they have another thing coming. we are not interested. we are going to focus like a laser beam on the corruption of this administration, on the lawlessness of this administration and continuing obstruction of justice both with the special counsel and now with congress itself. article three of the nixon impeachment articles was about obstructing congress in the execution of constitutional duties. donald trump has gone way beyond anything richard nixon ever did. trump said no subpoenas. we are not going to comply with any of them. the oversight committee is fighting about the subpoena of the president's accountants. the lawyer went to court and said the president doesn't have to comply with any subpoena at all. we need to tell them what our specific legislative purpose is which is a holy fanciful doctrine made up out of whole cloth. the judge said that's ridiculous. we had testimony from a number
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of professors who said it's completely out landish and overturns centuries of juris prudence. everybody owes us lawful testimony including the president of the united states. he is not above the law. >> what do you think? the way that steve mnuchin described it and the way i heard it before, there is a dispute between congress and the president and it will be adjudicated by the federal judiciary. the judge in the case of the subpoenas for the accounting records is expedited review and even a possibility of a preliminary ruling next week. is that your expectation of how this happens? what you are anticipating as the next point after which you make new decisions about what to pursue. >> there are multiple points of contact because we defend the prerogatives. some of them will indeed be in court. we will go to court to make sure we get the complete mueller report. remember, this is a couple months later now. we still don't have the mueller
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report, the special counsel report in its entirety. for two years they did not investigation and judiciary oversight saying we will let the special counsel do it then the special counsel report comes in and they blockade that. the attorney general of the united states distorts the memo and that holds it and they are fighting us every step along the way. that's one part of it and we have lots of other power available to us. the power of the purse and the power of impeachment and the power of censure and the power to negate the president and disapprove of the emoluments he continues to sclekt at the trump hotel and office towers. don't count congress out. we are the people's branch. we have been working on lowering prescription drug prices and passing equal pay for equal work. passing the toughest new gun law in 20 years in order to close the internet and the gun show loopholes for purchases and the republicans are not doing can anything about that.
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we are getting the obstruction from the senate and for mitch mcconnell that we get from donald trump on the legislative front and we continue to push there at the same time we will insist on the rule of law in america. believe me, my colleagues are getting angrier and angrier about this. >> sounds like it. >> great being with you. >> chris van hollen of maryland is a member of the appropriations committee that questioned mnuchin earlier today. let's start there. were you persuaded by what the secretary of the treasury had to say? >> not at all, chris. he really didn't make an argument. he said well, we will go to court. he couldn't really answer my question. which was doesn't the congress have a legitimate interest in verifying that the irs has required the president of the united states to pay all the taxes due and oh,ing.
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the reason he couldn't answer that is the original reason for the law, the irs code 6103 was way back in the harding administration, president hardings' administration and congress was worried he was not paying his taxes. that's why congress passed the law. to hold high executive officials accountable and make sure that the irs was requiring they pay all the taxes they do. that was the origin of the law. >> i'm curious what you make. in a variety of venues, there is a coherent theory of what the president's lawyers say. that's basically that he is kind of like a private citizen in and you are harassing him in ways that exceed your constitutional bounds. if you were doing this to joe shmow, you couldn't shake him down for all his records and his taxes and all this stuff. that would be beyond your constitutional limits and you can't do it to the president. does that square to you? >> obviously the president of the united states is in a
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different position when it comes to congressional oversight. the whole reason the framers created three branches of government including the congress was for checks and balances. it's not checks and balances over joe citizen, it's to make sure that we can root out wrong-doing and corruption in the executive branch. that's exactly why the congress passed a law way back, saying that congress should be able to review the work of the irs. the irs ultimately comes under the jurisdiction of the president. congress as an independent body should be able to figure it out. >> there is a standoff here. i guess is it your understanding and your colleagues understanding that the courts will rule on this and that will be that? >> well, i think the courts are going to be the ultimate arbiter
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here. clearly the president, the administration, is flouting what has been the justifiable and recognized oversight responsibilities of the congress and that means we have to take it to court. the courts are going to be essential. the issue, as you know, is the timeline here. this seems to be a deliberate strategy to drag things out and we hoept cowers will expedite the hearings and decisions. >> lindsey graham who is the chair of the judiciary advised donald trump, jr., jr. to ignore or disobey a subpoena from a committee chair in the united states senate. you have seen something like that? >> i have not. it is a really bad day for our constitutional system of government which you have a member of the legislative branch essentially saying to someone who relate to the president, don't listen to the congress. don't pay attention to the
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congress and the legitimate concerns. that was the issue in the united states senate. regardless of whether seaps are bipartisan or not, the reality is we have a duty to oversee the executive. >> donald trump, jr. is now going to testify i think they have the range to deal for two hours in a limited fashion. do you see this as essentially a win for lemg slative joefr sight or concession? >> well, i have questions which i'm not sure what the answers are. i'm hoping and assuming this is going to be under oath. and that -- i don't know if they are going to make a transcript available. if terms of public accountability as well as accountability to the committee, i have a lot of questions about how that conversation is degree to be structured. >> look, are we or are we not seeing a fundamental shift going
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on for a long time and culmin e culminating now in the way that government operates in partisan solidarity is more powerful than any institutional solidarity. the republican and the democratic party is what matters. those are the bonds of affinity and the people you have to work with and fight for. your fellow members of the senate or congress doesn't matter. >> well, what we are seeing in this administration is that trend going on steroids. there has been a kreaping in that direction overall, but under this administration, you see republicans en storrs just caving in to what they otherwise would have stood up to. i think you have got a lot of political cowardess going around and they are more afraid of what the president will do to them in one of their primaries than they
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are stick up for the constitution and the powers of the legislative branch. you are right. i think it's a dangerous thing that erodes the powers of the legislative branch. >> senator chris van hollen of maryland. thank you very much. >> the worst case scenarios of a trump presidency two years ago may look like what is unfolding right now. allies suggest the trump administration is inflating trumps to provoke a military exchange with iran. sammy duckworth has seen the horrors are war up close. horrors are war up close >> tech: at safelite autoglass, we know sooner or later...
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here'sshow me making it. like. oh! i got one. the best of amy poehler. amy, maybe we could use the voice remote to search for something that you're not in. show me parks and rec. from netflix to prime video to live tv, xfinity lets you find your favorites with the emmy award-winning x1 voice remote. show me the best of amy poehler, again. this time around... now that's simple, easy, awesome. experience the entertainment you love on x1. access netflix, prime video, youtube and more, all with the sound of your voice. click, call or visit a store today. the trump administration is trying to convince the public is engaming in escalating threats in the u.s. and interest. the claims are being met with
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widespread skepticism. the "new york times" reports a senior british official told reporter that's pentagon saw no increased risks in iraq or syria. that official happened to be the deputy commander of the entire american-let coalition fighting the i lammic state. they said knock that down saying there were credible threats in the region. the secretary of state has been doing his part, trying to convince al ice of the impenting threat so far. it's not working so well. the eu's foreign affairs chief pushed back and even iraqi officials said mr. pompeo presented on a surprise trip to baghdad. the u.s. ordered a official evacuation of the embassy, citing intelligence that they have iranian activity that puts american facilities at risk. it is hard to know what the actual facts are since they are
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hidden from public view, but it does look like the trump administration is manipulating or inflating intelligence in an attempt to provoke a military exchange. senator tammy duckworth of illinois and purple heart recipient met with patrick shanahan and asked him about the report they are considering sending 120,000 troops to the mideast and she joins me now. the pentagon plans for everything. we know that. there is all sorts of files over there with all sorts of scenarios. what's your sense from the conversation with the acting secretary of defense about what their thinking is over there right now? >> i think they are backing out what's coming out of the white house. what's coming out of the white house is inconsistent at best. this is snag mr. bolton is pushing forward. >> elaborate on that. what makes you say that? >> mr. bolton made it clear that time and again he referred to two ways we could go to conflict
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with the u.s. forces in iran and two of those, both of those ways are things he set up. one is if iran ramps up their nuclear production of course by pulling us oust nuclear agreement. that opens the door for the iranians to ramp up the efforts. the other is for a tax on forces and now they are talking about sending as much as 120,000 troops which increases the number of targets. he didn't have additional information as to what's happening in the region. >> do you trust they are not manipulating intelligence and you can take a face value of what they are saying the intelligence is telling them? >> unfortunately i don't trust a lot of things coming out of the white house. which is why i am asking for a briefing in congress. congress is the only branch that has the ability to declare war. you can get this information and it is troubling to me that this
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information exists. we are pulling out our personal and allies are not. you are telling me we are not sharing this information and we're leaving them in the lurch? >> this "new york times" reporting that was part of the closure that caught my eye, one american official speaking on the condition of anonymity was small stuff and did not merit the military planning being driven by mr. bolton. the ultimate goal of the sanction campaign by the trump administration was to draw iran into an armed conflict with the united states. is that a legitimate objective of foreign policy? >> i don't think it's legitimate at all, but do i think that's objective of mr. bolton? yes. >> that just strikes me as manifestly wrong. you should not be the case that any u.s. administration is trying to draw anyone into armed conflict? >> i agree. that should not be the case.
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only congress has the ability to declare war. let me stress that. if such intelligence exists, they need to brief the members of congress. i got a top secret clearance and i'm happy to listen to the estimates. the president is not keen on listening to intelligence briefings, but i am. i take my job very seriously come on. give me the briefing. in a bipartisan way, we have not received one. >> someone who knows better than any as well as anyone in the united states congress what the realities are war look like, do you -- what do you think the odds are of some kind of military escalation. do you trust the president to be judicious and even tempered in this? >> of course i don't think that the president will be or has ever been even tempered.
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i also don't trust mr. bolton. he is driving the train and i don't think mr. trump s. that's our commander in chief. mr. bolton is the one driving this escalation and frankly is terrifying. deeply concerning to me that someone who is not elected by the american people is making these key decision and pushing us towards greater and greater escalation. if this exists with the senate, let me see the estimates. if they truly exist and there is a threat, why are you not sharing with our allies. >> final question you talked about congress being the branch that declares war. we have seen congress with regards to yemen in bipartisan majorities in both houses passed the resolution to direct the u.s. withdrawal from any involvement in that conflict. do you think there would be similar votes to stop u.s. military conflict with iran among your colleagues,
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particularly republicans. >> i do think there could be a similar vote and they don't share estimates with us and credible intelligence that show there is an increased threat. if they can't produce anything then yes, there could be such a vote. >> senator tammy duckworth of illinois, thank you for your time. >> ahead, rebecca on the national outrage. they pass the most restrictive ban on abortion and the legal implications for every one of the 50 states. after this. ations for every one the 50 states. after this aaaah! nooooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. [son loudly clears throat] [mom and dad laugh] bounty, the quicker picker upper. now with new prints featuring characters from disney/pixar's toy story 4 in theaters june 21.
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it is now law in alabama, they just passed the most
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extreme antiabortion law in the countly by the admission of its own authors. it bans abortions making it a class a felony punishable by up to 99 years in prison. it was signed into law earlier this evening by republican governor kay ivy who has a long antiabortion record and stood with her state party in 2017 reporting roy moore's campaign for senate even after being accused of preying on multiple underage girls. the bill was pass by the senate last night by these 25 republican senators and if you are not crazy, all of them white, all of them male. 21 of them voted to get rid of an exception that had been put in the bill for victims of rain and incest. the result is state law that could give a doctor who performs an abortion on a woman who is rained more prison time than the rapist himself. the bill is so extreme that even
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some right wing opponents of abortion are worried it goes too far. for years opponents's legal strategy is to widdle away at the edges by opposing medically unnecessary requirements and restrictions before donald trump took office and nominated two justices to the supreme court. now states like alabama are attacking reproductive rights head on and explicit about the goal. this is by a in the last week, it is important we passe ban and begin a long overdue effort to cheanj roe vs. wade. now that donald trump restarted the effort by appointing conservative jurists, i feel confident that they will finally correct the 46-year-old mistake. if he is right, alabama's abortion ban could be the law of the land for the united states. i'm joined by new york magazine, good and mad.
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the deputy director of the aclu vowed to file suit over the new alabama law. let me start with you on the constitutional law here. you have to have your hallways be this wide and to make it more and more difficult for abortion providers to exist. this is a different category. >> we are seeing the true colors of the antiabortion movement. for years they chipped away at the right to abortion passing restriction on to which restriction, pushing abortion care slowly out of reach for many people and now this is a direct aim and an attempt to ban abortions in kentucky, ohio, mississippi and georgia. this is a direct attempt of roe vs. wade. >> remember a lot of people were saying look, kennedy was the
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vote that kept the majority together. kavanaugh will replace him. this is about roe. you are being hysterical and susan collins listening to precedent. someone in alabama department get that memo. >> people have been pointing that out in various ways. through starting in 2010 before then, too. in 2010, the rise of the tea party which we were told over and over again. by puntits and politicians is by tax policy. they wanted to defund planned parenthood. karl rove was instructing to take over state legislatures. this has been republican strategy for a long time. the chipping away which is a different strategy has actually made abortion inaccessible. all but illegal for vast swaths
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of americans in this country. vast swaths of the nation where you have to travel hours, hundreds of miles to get an abortion because the chipping away laws, the closing of clinics and the trap laws and the limits and having to wait overnight makes it economically inaccessible in a country that practically as soon as it codified abortion as legal passed a legislative rider that prevented poor women from using federal insurance to pay for abortion. abortion is ever more inaccessible ever since it became legal and a lot of people have been pointing this out and yelling about it and arguing about it and filing lawsuits about it. we have always been cold we were hysterical and being dramatic and nobody is going to turn over roe. of course they will try to do so. >> for has always been a conventional wisdom that they are not going to try to go
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through the front door. i don't think it's a crazy conventional wisdom in terms of gaining out the constitutional strategy. look, my understanding is the federal courts will strike it down. who knows. are there votes on the court to take her on at row. >> that's basically where they are at. it's blatantly constitutional. the court of appeals and places are going to strike down these bans and then whether the court takes one of the cases and what they do is another question. there are so many cases in the pipeline about the restrictions and you have been talking about as well that could present an opportunity to the supreme court to undermine or undo roe versus wade. it's not just the pieces. all the other cases. >> they can pick and choose and if they are thinking about preserving the majority. >> correct.
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>> under other circumstances maybe they wouldn't have gone for a "full frontal" challenge to roe. they would have been aiming towards the same thing and depriving women of reproduct productive autonomy and skpoeshl professional liberty. their humanity and their rights. they will take whatever strategy they can get. right now trump and the republican party's control has opened up a new door for them and they are trying to go through it. they have been going through the other doors up until now. >> there was a moment recently in a case called the franchise tax board of california in which precedent was overturn and there was a dissenting view and steven breyer was in the dissent. it was a well reasoned decision that caused no problems in the four decades since we decided it, today's decision can cause one to wonder which cases the court will overrule next as a
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warning from breyer. >> justice breyer cites casey in the 1992 decision that upheld roe vs. wade. we were on the brink of having it overturned. we were able to hold on to the fundamental right to abortion and the core of it. it was definitely widdled away in that decision. i think that's definitely a concern and we are deeply concerned that the supreme court will whether they will abide by the precedent. >> the last thing is people failed to recognize or a lot of people failed to recognize that the goal is total abortion ban. everyone should take seriously the commitments of the people fighting for this who are are not doing it for a corrupt purpose and because there is a big special interest. this is an ideological crusade and the people believe what they believe. >> yes. you should believe them. they mean this. by the way, i read breyer's call. not just a lot of people heard
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it about the senate and a lot of people talking about we need a senate that will exert better control over speert nominations, but a call to pay attention to every election nogz and besides the presidential election. it's senate and state legislative and gubernatorial elections and statehouses where the laws are being made. >> thank you both for joining me. coming up, how the worse case scenarios the trump presidencies are on the verizon and why ted cruz is raising concerns about the space pirates. thing one, thing two is next. e . thing one, thing two is next
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thing one tonight, ever since he took office, donald trump has been proposing big ideas. the biggest is space force that everyone thought was a joke, but i guess not? >> president trump will sign a new space policy directive that will lay out our plans and our timeline to create the new sixth branch of the armed forces, the u.s. space force. >> yes, the u.s. space forces a real thing and president trump really wants $2 billion to start it up and an operating budget of $5 billion a year. the democratically controlled house made a counteroffer in the
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budget. $15 million to study the idea of a space force. with the language, nothing in this provision will be construed to authorize the establishment. $15 million is not enough for space force. you might be able to afford a couple of space suits. maybe mike pence can wear one around the white house and that can be the race force. the president has an ally to help him get that space money. >> mike lee. i am your father. is. >> space ted is thing two in 60 seconds. ted is thing two in 60 seconds. okay, paint a picture for me.
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uh, well, this will be the kitchen. and we'd like to put a fire pit out there, and a dock with a boat, maybe. why haven't you started building? well, tyler's off to college... and mom's getting older... and eventually we would like to retire. yeah, it's a lot. but td ameritrade can help you build a plan for today and tomorrow. great. can you help us pour the foundation too? i think you want a house near the lake, not in it. come with a goal. leave with a plan. td ameritrade. ♪ today ending in why. senator ted cruz is being mocked on twitter. it's because in his new role, he made the case for a space force to protect us from space pirates. >> since the ancient greeks first put to sea, nations have
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recognized the necessity of naval forces and maintaining a superior capability to protect water bourne travel and commerce for bad actors. pirates threatened the open seas. and the same is possible in space. in this same way, i believe we too must now recognize the necessity of a space force. to defend the nation and to protect space commerce and civil space exploration. >> totally, dude. the dunking on twitter began immediately. elon musk replied with a pirate flag emoji and someone responded with this space x logo. a lot of people's feelings said somebody put ted in a rocket. if he were capable of embarrassment, he would have been gone a long time ago. >> i will confess that phrase conjured up to me, the rebel alliance fighting against the
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empire, the empire being the washington, d.c. establishment and indeed, immediately on hearing that phrase, i wondered if at some point we were going to see a tall gentleman in a mechanical breathing apparatus come forward and say in a deep voice, mike lee, i am your father. father sarah's last tuition payment, sent off. feeling good? oh yeah. now i'm ready to focus on my project. ♪ ♪
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before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you, and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible. right now the trump administration is actively fighting in court to deny
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citizenship to the children of american same-sex couples who used a surrogate from a sperm donor abroad. they have been insisting the children born to americans be biologically related to a u.s. citizenship. in the case of one couple, an israeli man married to an american, each donating sperm to one of their twin children, it has resulted in the preposterous conclusion of the part of the u.s. government that only one of the twins is an american. it's an awful lot of legal effort to produce intense cruelty and uncertainty for a relatively small group of american parents, but one can't help but conclude, the cruelty is the point. if the trump administration's attempts to deny citizenship to children of same-sex couples sounds like the kind of nightmarish dystopia conjured in the wake of trump's shocking win, it's where we're headed right now. some of the worst case scenarios imagined for this presidency.
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if you asked me right after donald trump was elected what my worst case scenario was for his presidency, i'd probably say something like this. appointing supreme court justices who provide the majority needed to outright overturn roe v. wade, starts a trade war with china that kicks the economy in a tailspin and starts a new war in the middle east with iran, and also he has a kind of authoritarian cooptation of the justice department with the attorney general who shields the president from accountability and prosecutes his political enemies. we're not there yet on any of those fronts. roe is still the law of the land. the chinese is escalating and william barr hasn't sent any opponents to jail, but good lord, it sure seems we're marching step by step in the direction of the worst case scenario. to talk more about this and other horrible things come to past, i'm joypd ined by aisha moodie-mills and rick wilson, author of "everything trump touches dies."
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it feels like a fraught moment to me partly because of the specter of iran with the full scope of the president's power and what could go wrong if he wields it in the wrong way suddenly seems on the table. and there doesn't seem to be sufficient guard rails on him at this point. >> no. and by insufficient guardrails, we mean that the democrats don't exactly know what to do and seem to be just in this posture of talking points, but anxiety. and as a result, they're doing a lot of nothing. but that's what makes me most nervous. i think everything you said in your opening is true, that we kind of said these are the worst case scenarios. but we also know donald trump is being who we expected him to be, and i think that we could have planned ahead for some of these scenarios, because he is literally being who we know he was going to be. the man is dangerous, and he is reckless. i am most concerned that the democrats don't seem to have a direct strategy to put some guardrails around that, and i'm waiting for nancy pelosi to say something other than cautioning us from reacting.
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>> i also think there is a dangerous, rick, a dangerous belief among republicans and the republican establishment who talks smack about the guy behind his back but are too cowardly to do it in public. >> right. >> like he'll be reined in. and if you ignore the boss when he tells you to go do something stupid, he'll forget about it because he is addled in the brain. >> right. >> it discounts how dangerous it all is. >> right. and i think that there is an awful lot of washington's culture where they nod and they wink behind -- they go out and say oh, my gosh, donald trump created the universe. he is the best thing since prepared mustard. we love him. and behind the closed door let's get this tax cut, let's get this regulation, let's get these judges and we'll just deal with this kookiness later. there will be a point where the mad king is mad there will be a point where he does things that you can't walk back. there will be a point when the trade sanctions with china escalate to the point where they stop buying t-bills one month and watch the stock market then
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there will be a point where you can't just imagine that you're this genius negotiator on all these different fronts and fail time and time and time again and not have any international consequences. you know, we're not at the apocalypse yet, but we're knocking on the door, and donald trump would really, really like to go. >> in i had a conversation with michael lewis wrote this really good book about government risk in the trump era. one of the things we spoke about on my podcast was the fact that there is all these risks out there that are maybe one in a million. and if you have a really terrible system of government or president, those could be one in a thousand, which is an enormous increase in the risk. but in your day the day life, you don't get it, right? and i feel like the risk, aishas is turning up in front of us, even if it's not turning into americans' homes every night. >> it's on us to remind people, regular americans sitting out there that that there is a risk and this is eminent and we are living in perilous times. i think too there are enough
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people paying attention, and frankly, the people who gave nancy pelosi the gavel, the people who gave the democrats the majority in the house in 2018, they're paying attention because they sent those folks to congress to actually do something to stop this president. remember, they won on resist, resist, resist. and we're not seeing much resistance. we're seeing a lot of talking points. we're not seeing much resistance. >> i just want to follow up on that, and i'll kohl back to you, rick. the sort of casey you, saw jamie raskin earlier. we're being prudent. we're dotting every i, we're crossing every t, we're going through process and taking him to court and we're checking all the boxes because we believe in the constitution and believe in processes and that's what we're doing. >> if you're playing the game by the rules and you're playing against somebody who is cheating, then your rules aren't going to get you far. >> this is all the issue. this is the issue always, can you match the shamelessness of the person sitting across the table from you, and the guy's gotten by for 40 years losing a billion dollars and being sued and going bankrupt four times and becoming president of the united states, but basically
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outshamelessing whoever was across from him. >> right. and that's a fundamental problem with the democrat strategy right here, well, we'll impeach him and he'll be so ashamtd, his behavior will change. what? he'll wary it like a badge of honor. he loves the idea because nothing will happen in the senate. >> wait a second, wait a second. let me stop you there. i don't subscribe to this theory. >> absolutely. >> he welcomes impeachment? >> i think he wants impeachment like nothing else on earth. he wants to be a martyr. he wants to be a whiney little baby every day on twitter about how cruel they are to him and to snivel like the -- well, sorry, i'm not going curse on tv tonight. >> thank you. >> but he wants to snivel every day, and he wants to complain every day, and he wants to send out direct mail and email fundraising and raise $300 million from the rubes out there because oh, they're so mean to me. you can't shame the shameless, like you said. >> no. >> but what you have to do is increase the pain level by holding his people to account and working your way up the chain with investigations and
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sanction. >> i think the democrats' responsibility is to actually save america, and they need to be focused as much on that as trying to stick to it donald trump, understanding that he is a symptom of something bigger than just himself, and that we need to get rid of him, sure, but this is about the democracy. it's about our constitution. that's why need to act. >> aisha moodie-mills and rick wilson, thank you for joini ing us. good evening, rachel. the one thing that is as close to exciting as swearing on tv is narrowly averted swearing on tv. it's almost as good. >> did you see my reaction? did you see how happy i was that i was narrowly avoided? >> i think you might have put an exclamation point on your reaction. thank you, my dear. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. montana governor steve bullock is our guest tonight. he has just joined the democratic race for president. you have never seen him on cable news in this context, although you have seen him on this show before. i'm very excited to have him here tonight.


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