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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  October 21, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT

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behavior. the behavior in the godfather is not behavior i recommend. >> today a judge ruled that jurors will not get to see the movie clip. they'll have to settle for a transcript instead. that does it for me. ari is back tomorrow and catch me at 5:00 a.m. eastern weekdays for "first look." "hardball" is up next. inevitable. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews, back in washington. the first thing i want to say that it's good to be back. all the notice and messages i've seen over the past two weeks overwhelm me. from my colleagues here at msnbc, the "hardball" producers and you the viewers, the political figures from the left to the reasonable right. i want to say that each message of caring matters and long ago i came to believe that heartfelt prayer matters.
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more to say about that when i'm through at the end of the show. but first, the news. there's been a turning during the last two weeks that's now inevitable that the u.s. house of representatives, led by a great, even historic speaker, is going to call the role on an article of impeachment and it will pass. it's inevitable, too, that senate republicans will be called to a reckoning in the trial of whether an impeached president should remain in office another year. whether it remains beyond that, beyond next year is a decision that lies before the american people. but even the president now seems to acknowledge the inescapable truth that impeachment is inevitable. >> do you believe that it's a foregone conclusion that the house will impeach? >> well, i think they want to. any democrat wants to because they're not going to beat me in the election, so of course they want to impeach. why wouldn't they want to impeach me? it's so illegitimate. it cannot be the way the founders, our great founders meant this to be. but, no, impeachment -- they want to impeach and they want to
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do it as quick as possible. >> each new deposition has bolstered the central charge of the inquiry, that the president traded away the national interest in favor of his own, using the power of his office to extort a foreign ally. well, current and former foreign policy officials last week testified that the president put his personal lawyer in control of his ukraine agenda, enabling rudy giuliani to use u.s. ambassadors to advance trump's personal political objectives. and now bill taylor, the u.s. ambassador to ukraine, is set to testify tomorrow. taylor sounded the alarm last month about the president's freeze of military support to ukraine, texting his colleagues, "i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign." it's part of what speaker pelosi is call in a fact she released today a shakedown, making the case that trump abused his power with ukraine. according to nbc news, now the charge is likely to be the centerpiece of a narrowly
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focused article of impeachment against the president. that's because, quote, speaker pelosi has been adamant that the case against trump must be targeted and easy to communicate in order to build public support. for that, i'm joined right now by democratic congressman, eric swalwell of california, who's on the house intelligence committee. jeff bennett, our correspondent for nbc news, covering this story. betsy woodruff swann is a politics reporter with the daily beast and glenn kirschner, of course, former federal prosecutor. let's start with jeff, my friend, you're covering on this case, is it inevitable, am i right, we're going to impeach? the u.s. house of representatives is going to impeach the president? >> and chris, it's great to see you. welcome back. i think all signs point to the inevitability of impeachment. and when we say that, we mean impeachment as a process, not impeachment as an end result. and the reason i say that is because what we know about nancy pelosi is two things. really, she does not make idle
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threats. and two, she does not waste political capital. and for weeks, you've seen the house speaker say what president trump already admitted to is in itself is a crime. is in itself, pelosi says, an impeachable offense. president trump so goes the theory of the democratic case, using his public office for personal gain. that is the story that democrats have really stitched together with this tapestry of evidence and testimony over the last two weeks, from diplomats and career officials, as they clearly have drawn out how president trump leaned on rudy giuliani to run an influence campaign outside of the normal diplomatic channels to get the ukrainian leaders to manufacture damaging information about the bidens. on this other thing about political capital, you now have all but seven house democrats now expressing some supportive for some sort of impeachment action. you don't take your party through that sort of trial unless you're ready to make that leap at the end of it, chris. >> and so, when you say the
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process will it end up with a vote of more than 218 members of the house of representatives voting aye on at least one article of impeachment? >> it looks that way. you know, as i stand here and talk to you right now, as it moves to the senate, will you find 20 republican senators to join with the 45 democrats and the two independents who caucus with them? probably not. so when we talk about impeachment as an end result, will this be the thing that removes donald trump from office? likely not. but democrats have said that it's important in this election year to get those vulnerable republican senators on the record. even if it's not, you know, successful as a means of getting donald trump out of the white house. to get those republicans on the record after democrats have built the public case against the president. >> i want to go to eric swalwell, a member of the intelligence committee, a part of this show. congressman, it seems to me that pelosi does have empathy for people from districts that aren't as liberal as her san francisco. that she does understand what it's like to be a suburban democrat coming out of the last election. and you have to get re-elected
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again. and my sense is that she thinks that this focus on article i, one article on abuse of power, involving trading away of our national security interests for personal political gain is the strongest armament that she can give to a suburban democrat going into the next election. an impeachment vote like that. >> chris, good evening. she certainly recognizes that none of us ran for congress to be a part of an impeachment inquiry. we ran on health care. we ran on gun violence. and to end it, we ran on extending jobs to people who want to work. but the urgency of this upcoming election and the extortion scheme that was going on forces us to answer the question, what do we do with our children watching what we will do with this democracy? will we allow this scheme to continue? and for foreigners to play in our elections, will we say, no, we're not going to allow it? now, we have crime, we have confession, we have cover-up. we're beginning to give this president a fairer investigation than he probably deserves. which means we're going to bring the witnesses in.
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if the president wants to cooperate, he should. if he has exonerating evidence, they should present it. if they're going to tell witnesses to not come in, as they continue to do, we will just view that as consciousness of guilt and put that under consideration for obstruction of congress. but it's in his interest to cooperate considering he's confessed to the crime. if there are arrows that point to innocence, he should show us what those aver rrrows are. >> that is kind. amid all of this, democrats have been largely united as they advance their case and it appears the president has taken notice about the democrats being united. >> i think they're lousy politicians. but two things they have, they're vicious, and they stick together. they don't have mitt romney in their midst. they don't have people like that. they stick together. you never see them break off. the republicans have to get tougher and fight. we have some that are great fighters. they have to get tougher and fight, because the democrats are trying to hurt the republican party for the election.
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>> this is like the sharks and the jets. i mean, he's saying, that other side is united. we've got to be like them, you know? >> it's true. there's certainly a lot of envy when it comes to the way that the party's reacting. and truly, it has bothered trump ever since he first came on to the national scene as the extent to which many national republican power brokers just found him to be abhorrent. it's been a problem for his administration, it's been a problem for filling out some of the key national security jobs. it's part of the reason why there are so many vacancies in his cabinet. and now he's seeing where the rubber meets the road of the fact that many national republicans just don't like him. >> i wonder if his culture is so bad that he didn't even get what he did that was impeachable. somebody said years ago in a story that franklin roosevelt's idea of being president was being franklin roosevelt, which made sense. a man of great self-confidence that got him through the depression and the war. trump's idea of being president is being donald trump and it's horrific and a horrific idea. >> yeah, he's ill suited to be
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president. first of all, welcome back, chris. we're happy to have you back. >> thanks, glen. >> when you think about, maybe donald trump was a political novice when he was running the first time, so maybe that's why he said, "russia, if you're listening," he didn't know any better. then we spent two years -- that in part gave birth to the mueller investigation. he knows better now. and what does he do? hey, ukraine, if you're listening, i want dirt on biden. then he stands on the white house lawn and says, china, i want you in, too. now, do you think china maybe started its own spearfishing expedition after he said that? i mean, it really is beyond the pale to suggest that he doesn't know any better and he's just being donald trump. he's dragging the country through this all over again. >> in a story just breaking right now, "the washington post" is reporting that trump's effort to pressure ukraine came, quote, as he was being urged to adopt a hostile view of the country by its regional adversaries, including -- here it comes -- russian president vladimir putin, as well as hundred gainer prime minister, victor orban.
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that's according to current and former u.s. officials, one of whom testified in the impeachment inquiry last week. while neither putin nor orban encouraged trump to seek dirt on joe biden, quote, their disparaging depictions of ukraine reinforced trump's perceptions of the country, as white house officials struggled to persuade trump to support the fledgling government in kiev instead of exploiting it for political purposes. betsy, this is what the speaker of the house is talking about. all roads lead to putin. >> the country of ukraine, more than any other country in the region, i would say, by far, is incredibly dependent on economic support from the united states. most of western europe sees ukraine as something of an outcast. they find it a little bit embarrassing. >> especially javelin missiles to stop russian tanks. >> exactly. they don't seriously -- they haven't made serious, major commitments to that country. ukraine really relies on support from the united states. and putin knows this. it's very obvious to him. so, it's completely consistent with his government's long-term
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strategy of trying to take ukraine back into russia, that they would go after this country on all fronts. ukrainians use the term hybrid warfare to describe the way the russian government is trying to discredit their economy. obviously, attacking them militarily. and putin trying to damage president trump's view of ukraine, would just be part of this broader russian onslaught against their country. >> and this is the great contradiction or challenge that the democrats in the next month. i think they will impeach next month in the house. but they must be attracted to the idea, to encase the whole charge with not just the interests, but this guy is working for the russians. because there's so much evidence that everything he's done wrong was at the behest, implicitly, of vladimir putin. >> and i think they should investigate expansively, which they appear to be doing, and prove their case narrowly. a real quick example. when you're investigating a case, you want to hold somebody accountable for all of their crimes. if i got somebody who's buying
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an illegal gun, carjacking, and using that car in a bank robbery, i've got three charges. but you know what? if what it takes to prove the carjacking, i have to call a really cruddy, unreliable, unseemly witness, i may jet son that charge. so if i needed like a corey lewandowski to prove the carjacking or to prove an obstruction, a la the mueller report, i may jettison that altogether. and i may focus just on what he did with ukraine, holding that congressional money hostage in order to get a political advantage. so i think what we're hearing now, the tactical choices that the house is making to kind of try its case minorly i thi lnary right. >> i want to go back to jeff on this. for weeks, we watched really the sultry, unpleasant hearing before the house judiciary committee. and it ended up with a grossout show of corey lewandowski, where he won the day, unfortunately. i think we've got a real case
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here for impeachment, we better not lose it. chris wallace, by the way, of fox news said yesterday. he's on on sunday, that according to ram source of his, there's least a chance that enough senate republicans would vote to remove trump. here's chris. >> i talked to a very well-connected republican in washington this week, somebody whose name you would know well, who says that if the house votes to impeach and it gets to a trial in the senate, there is now a 20% chance, he believes, obviously, it's just an estimate, now a 20% chance that enough republicans will vote with the democrats to remove the president. >> well, let me go back to congressman swalwell. first of all, i think there's a -- i'm not big on these percentage chances, because they're like nate silver of the "new york times," i don't believe any of that. bet on something happening or not happening. chris is still betting it's not going to happen. but in your sense of the senate, is there an opening there in the senate that they'll actually listen to the house impeachment charges? >> i'm not writing them off, chris. and we want to put together the
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fairest case, so that when it gets to the senate, you don't see these attacks on the process that you're seeing from the republicans who are in denial about the underlying act. so we want to put a fair case forward, so that the senators can not just write it off as partisanship. i will say this to glenn kirschner's point that he made, and it was a good one. this individual, our president, as priors. even though he may not be brought up on what happened with russia, the jury will know, the senate, about the priors. and that this is not just some aberrational act by the president. this is what he did in the 2016 election and that will be very, very relevant, i think, as they consider the urgency to act and protect the 2020 election. >> you want to respond to that? >> no, i'm with congressman swal well. but i do think if the senate trial uses these serious career public servants, maria yovanovitches, the bill taylors,
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these folks are unimpeachable witnesses, no pun intended. they're serious and the american people will see exactly what the president was up to. >> jeff, you're a younger guy than me, but i've got to tell you, i've watched politicians a long time. and i have to tell you, i'm in awe of nancy pelosi. i have never seen -- i questioned her resistance to impeachment for months, like so many people did, and yet i've watched somebody who waited for her opportunity, saw it, jumped on it, has been resolute and she has leadership ability. when she leads, people follow her. and that's -- is that your sense, that this leadership of hers has been critical in this matter? >> she has a keen ability to keep her finger on the pulse of not just her caucus, chris, but generally where politics is headed. i mean, just remember, the other day when president trump tweeted out that photo and tried to suggest that she was unhinged. within a matter of hours, she took that same photo, flipped it around, and turned it in to a symbol of her lecturing the president, standing up to the
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president. on this issue, this issue of grave national security, i mean, impeachment, she says, is a political process, yes. but she says, this is a principled process. because in her view, what the president did, was he undermined national security and he called into question the integrity of our election system. and so that is why, you know, she is moving forward with this process so deliberately, chris. >> you know, there's a wonderful writing by scott trow, the guy who writes about courtroom dramas and he has this wonderful line in the beginning of "presumed innocent," where he says, the prosecutor's job is to point their finger across the courtroom to the guilty person, point it at the defendant and say, he or she did it. you must confront the bad guy. and when pelosi did that, i was amazed. it was so well done. unhinged, hardly, mr. president. hardly. thank you, u.s. congressman eric swalwell. thank you, jeff bennett. thank you, betsry woodruff swan.
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i love you two kids got together. it's wonderful. coming up, mick mulvaney is not just the chief of staff, east the president's chief flack. it's not a nice word, but it's true. but how long can he survive trying to defend the indefensible? nice job. defend the indefensible nice job >> funding will not flow unless the investigation into the democratic server happened as well? >> we do that all the time. >> yeah, i flinched a little bit, because that's what people are saying that i said, but i didn't say that. >> we do it all the time, quid pro quo. former member of trump's cabinet joins me here next. plus, under pressure from a member of his own party, the president reverses his decision to play daddy host at a g-7 at his own resort. emoluments clause, maybe? will any republicans publicly stand up to this president now. other than president -- well, almost president mitt romney, aka, pierre delekto. that's his nickname. and former pete -- actually,
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mayor pete, about to be former mayor pete, makes his move in iowa. a serious contender, he's making his move. wait until you see the numbers. much more coming up next. stick with us. wlp ming up next stick wi th us. wl i thought i was ma my moderate to severe ulcerative colitis. but i realized something was missing... me. the thought of my symptoms returning was keeping me from being there for the people and things i love most. so, i talked to my doctor and learned humira can help get, and keep, uc under control when other medications haven't worked well enough. and it helps people achieve control that lasts so you could experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection.
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overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. welcome back to "hardball." over the weekend, mick mulvaney, the president's acting chief of staff, was the public face of this administration. mulvaney was tasked with trying to undo the damage he himself caused during a 40-minute briefing on thursday last week. he didn't get very far. appearing on fox news this sunday, mulvaney tried to spin his public confession that the trump administration withheld military aid to ukraine in exchange for a politically motivated investigation. let's take a look. >> you, again said just a few seconds ago that i said there was a quid pro quo. never use that language. there was never a quid pro quo. >> you were asked by jonathan carl, you described a quid pro
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quo, and you said, what happens all the time. >> again, reporters will use their language all the time. my language never said quid pro quo. >> so the demand for an investigation into the democrats was part of the reason that he wanted to withhold funding from ukraine? >> the look back to what happened in 2016 certainly was part of the thing that he was worried about in corruption with that nation. and that is absolutely appropriate. >> withholding the funding? >> yeah. >> to be clear, what you just described is a quid pro quo. it is, funding will not flow unless the investigation into the democratic server happened as well. >> we do that all the time with foreign policy. and i have news for everybody. get over it. there's going to be political influence in foreign policy. >> mulvaney, according to the "wall street journal," didn't anticipate the blowback, but his job seems to be secure for now. sources tell nbc that he mulvaney received a standing "o" from senior white house staff during their morning meeting today. more more, i'm joined by mike
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o'crowley, "new york times" white house correspondent, and david shulkin, president trump's former veterans affairs secretary, and author of a great new book, "it shouldn't be this hard to serve your country," about his tumultuous 13 months in the trump administration. this guy, why did -- mick mulvaney is a congressman elected by real people in south carolina. he could have had a job forever down there, right? why would he stick his neck into this? he takes omb, which is a wonderfully important job in our government, no matter who's president, a serious job, then he becomes the president's so-called acting chief of staff. but really, his flack, the guy he puts on television on sunday to bs for him. i'm being nice with the word "bs." why would he do this for a living? >> it's a strange situation all-around. first of all, you put your finger on part of what's unusual here, which is, that you don't have a press secretary that's coming out and giving regular briefings. so why is the chief of staff coming out and doing a briefing like this? that's pretty unusual to begin with. the public messaging of this administration is a little unusual, partly because the president is talking all the time, i suppose. and then, i think the weirdness
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of mulvaney's existence was captured in a statement that came out of the white house, i think yesterday, a press person said the president has confidence in his acting chief of staff. where's the contradiction in that statement? why is he the acting chief of staff if the president has confidence in him? the reality is the president has confidence up to a point. mulvaney runs up and down with the president. doesn't love him enough to give him the full title. he could wipe away that "acting" in a single stroke. but part of the reality is, chris, it's not a job that a lot of people want. that is a tough job. >> but the next stop is "dancing with the stars," mr. secretary, that's the next stop, or "snl," portraying you riding around in a scooter, at a lectern, with woman playing you. just to confuse everything. but it's not an admirable place. when you took a job as secretary, you were promoted, did you think you could serve this country without servie ini donald trump? when you went into that position as head of veterans affairs? >> i did. i entered government under the obama administration and when president trump asked me to be secretary, i thought the department of veterans affairs
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was different. i thought that this was a department that was completely run outside of the political agenda, that this was bipartisan. and the longer that i got to stay in washington in this administration, the more that i saw that that wasn't the case. >> is there any place to hide in this administration? can you serve running the peace corps, running the nih, running nasa, can you serve admirably without falling under the thumb of this president. >> there are many, many dedicated people that serve in the federal government. but it's increasingly hard. >> you have to be on a tight wire. you're up there at 500 feet in the air. you've got to say what he likes and also say the truth. how the hell can mulvaney do that? what's the guy now on "dancing with the stars". >> spicer. >> yeah, he looks like a fool. >> and you really can't get too far away from what the president
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wants to hear and survive in this white house. >> so you have to lie? >> you really have to be channeling donald trump and be comfortable with that. but this goes back to the oddity of why is the chief of staff coming out and doing this briefing in the first place? that's unusual in itself. the whole way this white house is approaching messaging right now is something that we've never seen before. on the upside, we're almost seeing this transparent presidency. donald trump never stops talking. we're seeing him talking in realtime and deliberations in realtime in a way we've never had before. but throw out the chief of staff, this one-off, to a white house press corps that hasn't had a briefing in month and he got chewed up. >> and why do they keep putting him out on sundays? >> chris wallace is a great interviewer. i know it's fox -- >> it's not fox news, it's -- >> that's what i was -- >> so, yes, that actually was a pretty tough environment. i don't know why he chose that show. >> mulvaney made another mistake, here we goes with another mistake when he attempted to defend trump's decision to hold the g-7 at doral down in florida by
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explaining that the president of the united states is still in the hospitality business. >> the president isn't one for holding back his feelings and his emotions about something. he was honestly surprised at the level of pushback. at the end of the day, you know, he still considers himself to be in the hospitality business and he saw an opportunity to take the biggest leaders from around the world and he wanted to put on the absolute best show, the best visit that he possibly could. >> you say he considers himself in the hospitality business. >> sure. >> he's the president of the united states. >> yeah. but he's -- that'she wanted to . he wanted to take care of folks. he's in the hotel business. or at least he was. >> so there, mr. secretary, is the chief of staff, acting chief of staff, who may not ever get the job, because he was trying to project or channel what the president would say, but the president doesn't want to be portrayed the way he is, or seen the way he is, which is that he's still running hotels and still trying to make a buck off of them. here's a guy who actually put in
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words what trump thinks, and now got in huge trouble for it. so how long is this guy going to last? >> well, i think it's one of the hardest jobs you can have in the white house. and i'm not sure that anybody is going to be fit for that job for too long a period of time. but -- >> remember general kelly. he tried to bring order and put up guardrails, the president said, get out of here. >> i was very hopeful that when general kelly came in, he would bring some discipline. and i think in many ways, he tried. but he too, found it extremely difficult to be able to coral the agendas in the white house. >> the fish rots from the head, as the great michael dukakis once said. this administration. how long will mulvaney last? >> who wants that job? that's why he's still acting. he couldn't get the people that he wanted. chris christie was one who was in the mix for instance. >> did he offer him the job? >> i can't remember now, chris, whether or not --
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>> christie's never -- >> he put himself out of the running. >> three for three. three years of this presidency and three different chiefs of staff. and if he does make a second term, he has wasted second, third, fourth, fifth choices. what's left? what's his second term going to look like? jesus, thank you. >> you know, 17 members have come through the revolving door of the cabinet and that's making it very difficult to serve. >> 17 cabinet members. thank you so much. in other words, they're gone. secretary david shulkin, thank you. good luck with this book. "it shouldn't be this hard to serve your country." well said. thank you, michael crowley of "the new york times". coming up next, president trump reversing on holding the g-7 at his resort down in florida? is this a sign that when republicans push back, he actually listens? i don't know. you're watching "hardball." i don't know you're watching "hardball. i took your advice and asked my doctor to order cologuard, that noninvasive colon cancer
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it would have been great. but the democrats went crazy. even though i would have done it free. saved the country a lot of money. but i was willing to do this for free, and it would have been the greatest g-7 ever. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump complaining about the criticism of his now-scrapped decision to hold next year's g-7 meeting of world leaders at his own resort. trump national doral near miami. well, the president made a rare
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vertical after widespread criticism of this choice in defending the original decision he tried to argue, he was the victim. >> i don't think you people with this phony emoluments clause -- and by the way, i would say that it's cost me anywhere from $2 billion to $5 billion to be president, and that's okay. between what i lose and what i could have made, i could have made a fortune. if i just ran my business. i was doing it very well. >> the president blamed the very real, by the way, united states constitution, article i, section 9, clause 8, to be exact, and democrats as well. in reality, the reversal was because republicans, republicans refused to defend him on this. nbc news reports that after calling into a saturday meeting of moderate house republicans, according to two sources, quote, trump was told that the majority of the room felt it would be best for him to reverse himself. "the new york times" reports, with many members already unhappy with the consequences of the president's move to withdraw
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troops from syria and democrats pressing the impeachment inquiry, republicans on capitol hill were not eager to have to defend the appropriateness of the president's decision to take the g-7 to doral. in fact, one member of the house republican leadership told "the new york times", quote, we just didn't need this. but what does prominent republican pierre delekto think about president trump's latest indefensible act? never heard of him? he's a wild and crazy guy. you won't believe who this guy is. you're watching "hardball." t bey is you're watching "hardball. (ernie) lost rubber duckie? (burke) you mean this one? (ernie) rubber duckie! (cookie) what about a broken cookie jar? (burke) again, cookie? (cookie) yeah. me bad. (grover) yoooooow! oh! what about monsters having accidents? i am okay by the way! (burke) depends. did you cause the accident, grover? (grover) cause an accident? maybe... (bert) how do you know all this stuff? (burke) just comes with experience.
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i leave these things to my heirs, all 39 million of you, on one condition. that you do everything to preserve and protect them. with love, california. welcome back to "hardball." well, president trump's decision to reverse course on holding next year's g-7 summit at his own golf resort came as he faced heat from all sides. "the washington post" reports that trump has told republicans he was told are struggling to
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defend him on so many fronts. in fact, one republican who has been less willing to defend the president is utah senator mitt romney, who we're learning has offered up some of his own opinions in disguise. in a lengthy profile in the atlantic, romney described that he used a secret twitter account. slate magazine did some digging and found the undercover twitter for senator romney, otherwise known as pierre delecto -- absorb that phrase -- anyway, romney confirmed last night that he is, in fact, pierre, telling the atlantic the account created in 2011 is now private. but just as recently as two weeks ago, pierre delecto was commenting on the president's abrupt decision to withdraw u.s. troops from syria, asking, but what could the senate do to stop it? for more, i'm joined by democratic congresswoman criskcy
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houlahan of pennsylvania and michael steele. why would a u.s. senator representing an entire state feel they have more power as a secret twitter account holder under a french pseudonym or nom de plume, why would somebody make themselves small like that rather than get out there on the senate floor and demand truth and justice? >> so -- >> my question. >> so, it's a great question, which i can't even begin to speculate on the answer to, because it's obviously not the way that i feel that we ought to be communicating from the house floor, from the senate floor, about such grave issues, as whether or not the behavior of our president is constitutional and presidential. and so, i would encourage everyone, democrat and republican, on the house and the senate floor, to be transparent with their communications. and to be forthcoming with the people. >> what do you make of this? it's not exactly a profile in courage. but what is? i remember all the old murder shows, it would be kcorpus
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delic delicti. >> i can't even get into the name. i can't begin to understand or decide the combination -- >> it's like carlos danger. >> delecto, i don't know what to do with that. it's delicious. >> well, he does speak french. he was a mormon mission president. good for him. he speaks french fluently. i once asked him during the campaign for president, i said, can you say "let them eat cake" in french, and he said, i can, but i won't. he has a sense of humor. >> he does, he does. it's cool that way. i get it. i think he was having a little fun with it, possibly, at one point, and it's turned into a way in which he can communicate more directly and forcefully on some of these issues. but i agree with the congresswoman. yeah, put your name out there on the senate floor and make a case. >> does rump -- trump have any reason to be afraid of mitt romney, because he seems to be bugging him. >> i don't know if it's a question of fear, but you put your finger on the right word. it's a bug. i think mitt romney gets under
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his skin in a way that's uncomfortable for trump. and so we'll see what he can do with that. i mean, there are a lot of people inside the party who do look for mitt to kind of step into that space and be the leader in the moment. we'll see. but i don't know if delecto gets you there. >> well, president trump defended his decision to withdraw u.s. forces from northern syria. said there was good news coming from the region and claimed credit -- personal credit -- for defeating isis. he did it. >> the kurds are moving out to safer areas, beyond the safe zone, as we call it. having the safe zone is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. and plenty of turks have been killed because of conflict on their border. so, you know, you have to look at it both ways. but the cease-fire is absolutely holding. there were some skirmishes, but very little, relatively speaking. as you know, most of the isis fighters that we captured -- we, we -- not obama, we. we captured them. me. our country captured them. working with others, including the kurds.
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everyone says the kurds helped us. that's true. we helped the kurds. they're no angels, but we helped the kurds. >> what is -- in the history books, how do we explain this at least temporary unraveling of the republican party? congresswoman, the party that you defeated in last november, the fact that it was very strong in the suburbs, but not so anymore, was a party that was pretty good on national defense, and now trump has pulled them back in the middle east and syria, especially, leaving our allies exposed to their enemies. and yet it wasn't until the president tried to move the g-7 to doral that they actually stood up and said "enough." >> yeah. and i'm gravely disappointed and really concerned about the president's decision in syria and -- with the kurds. i had just come back from a bipartisan trip in the region and landed today news that the president had made this decision and without exception, the people we talked to in afghanistan and turkey and syria and jordan all had this as their
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worst-case, doomsday scenario. this incursion. so i'm heartened to have heard the pushback by the republicans on this particular decision on the part of the president. i'm also, frankly, heartened that they pushed back on doral as well. i would like to see more people standing up and putting their name -- objecting to the decisions that our president is making, because i think it's imperative for people with reason and sanity to ask questions about this president's behavior. >> thank you so much. it's always great to have you on, congresswoman. i'm very, very impressed by everything you do. and thank you so much for coming on again. >> appreciate it, sir. >> let me get back to michael on this. you're a pro. you've been around. you're a republican senator right now. would you like to vote on the impeachment trial, or do you just hope it doesn't come to you? i think it's going to come to them, but do you want that vote? >> okay, so the political answer is -- >> murkowski -- >> the political answer is depends on what state i'm in. so the truth of the matter is, if you are in a state that is
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marginal for you, you probably do, because you're going to need the democrats to win. if you're in a state where you need democrats to win, you're going to probably want to flesh this out more. if you're -- >> you would actually vote against -- you would vote for conviction. >> well, yeah. again, let's assume the evidence is there and the evidence makes the case. i mean, this voting for conviction for the sake of voting for -- >> so you can get re-elected as a republican if you -- >> i think you can. i think that's the calculation for some. >> thank, michael steele. that's a surprise answer, and therefore, good one. up next, pete buttigieg surges and i knew this was coming. i did predict this one. elizabeth warren promises now she will say how much we'll pay for medicare for all. and bernie sanders reboots in new york. what a show they had the other day. 26,000 people in queens. you're watching "hardball." ,000. you'reat wching "hardball. i get it all the time. "have you lost weight?" of course i have- ever since i started renting from national. because national lets me lose the wait at the counter...
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doooooooooug! you want to go sell some tacos? progressive knows small business makes big demands. doug, where do we get a replacement chili pepper bulb? so we'll design the insurance solution that fits your business. it's a very niche bulb. it's a specialty bulb. welcome back to "hardball." after 105 days until -- well, it's 105 days until the first in the nation caucuses, that's going to be in iowa next february, voters are signaling a potential shift, causing one democratic candidate to surge. in a new suffolk university "usa today" poll, and it's a good poll, mayor pete buttigieg has leapfrogged past bernie sanders in iowa, at 13%, not far behind joe biden and senator warren, basically only a few points ahead of him right now. those three are the top three
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right now. buttigieg is up seven points since june. in the same period, biden has dropped by six, while warren has gained four. she's always doing well. now buttigieg is. sanders' numbers unchanged at 9%. i thought he did better but apparently not. also in the rise the number of caucus goers who say they are undecided. this is key. nearly 30% say they don't know who they're going for in iowa. that's up eight points since june. went up eight points. i'm joined by susan page and gene robinson. gene, it seems to me that the voters are pulling back from a decision. >> well -- >> at least the decisions they were headed to. >> there was a minute there where it seemed like biden was almost going to become the presumptive nominee, reach that status. he had widespread support across the country, leading and all of this and that. that's not the case anymore. clearly voters are looking
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around. they're not ready to commit to a nominee. >> yeah. >> they are -- look, there's not universal faith in biden as the front-runner anymore. >> yeah. >> although i do wonder if he has a floor. i wonder if there's a floor for biden. >> can he survive three losses starting with the caucuses in iowa, on to new hampshire, nevada and still win south carolina with the african-american vote? will they hang with him? >> well, he's going to have to hope for that. that could happen. >> that's where it's headed. >> it could happen. what happens in iowa and new hampshire and nevada does affect what happens in south carolina. so it depends. >> sure, it does. >> now if he loses to one person, if one person beats him in all three states then i think he's in trouble. if it's like three different winners, right -- >> but you know if warren wins in iowa, she's going to win in new hampshire. >> i would think. >> they're neighboring states.
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susan, what do you think? you've heard the line of discussion. go ahead. >> this is a field that's becoming less settled than it was. there are more undecided people. we have people moving to new candidates and pete buttigieg and elizabeth warren. >> the weakness i think was a surprise. iowa ought to be a good state for him. he's still ahead but not by much. who's your second choice? that's one thing we asked voters. elizabeth warren got the most second choice votes. pete buttigieg got the second most second place votes and that's a sign where people will go if they get unhappy with their candidates or if candidates drop out. that's not a good time for joe biden to be number three as a second choice. >> do you think joe biden is fundamentally weak or he's run a bad campaign and could have run a better one? >> i think he's got some challenges and one is being fluent in an age that really
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supports that. one is coming up with fresh ideas generating energy and excitement with democratic primary voters. that's something elizabeth warren has done a good job doing. he still leads the field but we see him having trouble not only in this poll but with his fundraising. he's in worse shape with fundraising than several of his rivals. >> i think they made a big mistake with the guy. it's not irreparable. they decided they could run a 1968 campaign like nixon did. keep him away from the press, don't let him engage. the only way to deal with the press, the only way to talk on television is to talk on television. no other way to do it. you have to engage with reporters, 20 or 30. after 20 or 30 interviews, you may make a mistake or two but you may be able to talk. >> especially now. that direct and frequent communication is more important to a campaign, candidate than ever before. but iowa you see warren in great
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position and buttigieg rising. it's no coincidence that they've spent the money. they've spent the money in iowa to open offices and have more presence. >> are these real votes for buttigieg in the polling or are they a parking place for now? we'll see how it goes later? >> i think they're real votes for him. i think he's found a lane. >> moderate lane? >> the moderate lane and that is a direct challenge to joe biden. you saw him show that in the last debate when he really challenged elizabeth warren in how she would pay for medicare for all. when you asked her, buttigieg did better. who did worse? joe biden. one out of four iowa democratic caucus goers said joe biden did worse than expected. >> how did klobuchar come out? >> she did well. number two. >> i'm a big boost for buttigieg. i know he's gay. i know he's married to another
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man. i know all of that, but in the democratic party, that's not going to hold him back. i think he's going to do so well. thank you susan page and gene robinson. a quick programming note about the show tomorrow. michael moore is going to be here. he's just endorsed bernie sanders. we'll hear all about that. representing the moderate wing, amy klobuchar. they both have to eventually unite. two big voices representing the democratic party. don't want to miss it on "hardball." up next, personal note from me. you're watching "hardball." l.
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before i say good night tonight i want to thank everyone that sent messages of encouragement and well wishes over the last few weeks. i want to thank the incredible team of doctors and nurses who looked after me. as you know, i had surgery two weeks ago after being diagnosed with prostate cancer and as a result it looks to be smooth sailing here. i had it out, clean, it's gone. i want to thank steve kornacki for filling in for me. it's an important chair sitting in here, this "hardball chair." if we're going to keep our democracy alive, we need to challenge those who seek power. this is the message i've heard again and again that people want me to keep on asking the questions because without accounting, it is government by the elite, the economic elite, the cultural elite, whatever. that's not democracy. the day we leave it up to our
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financial or academic so-called betters is the day we kiss it all good-bye. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> doral was a very simple situation. i own a property in florida. >> the president vulnerable as he's never been before. >> it would have been the greatest g-7 ever. >> forced to cancel his g-7 plans in the wake of massive republican backlash. >> it shouldn't have been done in the first place and it's a good move to get out of it. >> tonight, the toll of the impeachment inquiry on the presidency. >> at the end of the day he still considers himself to be in the hospitality business. >> then, new reporting reveals just how close trump was to the now indicted ukraine team. >> lev and eyeing


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