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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  October 30, 2019 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT

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usa today suffolk poll has predicting by a 10 point spread -- this will blow you away -- that trump will get a second term. but i also don't sense that the country can't yet see who can beat the guy. and that's still up to the candidates. because if you can't beat trump, all of this is just a wastef our time. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> this will be probably the fourth time in our nation's history that congress has considered the presidential impeachment process. no one runs for congress to impeach a president, but we are here today because the facts compel us to be. >> tonight democrats take the first public steps in the impeachment inquiry as more witnesses testify in private. >> are you concerned about white house retaliation? >> and john bolton is formally
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asked to testify. >> you know, john wasn't in line with what we were doing. >> plus new reporting on the origins of trump's quid pro quo with ukraine, and why even republicans are raising alarms at the trump scheme to install an anti-immigrant hard liner at dhs. >> you and mr. trump don't want anyone who looks or talks differently than caucasian americans to be allowed into this country. >> that's false. >> i'm sorry, please don't interrupt me. >> when "all in" starts now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the impeachment of president donald j. trump is taking another major step forward today. the house rules committee is preparing vote on a resolution laying out the procedures for the next big steps in the inquiry including public hearings. they are literally convening right now to do that as we speak. the full house is then expected to vote on the resolution tomorrow. legislators have already heard dossens of hours of private testimony that continues to be
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more and more damning for the president. we already know from president trump's own words and phone call notes released from the white house the president corruptly attempted to coerce an occupied foreign country to manufacture dirt on an american citizen, indeed his possible political opponent. when the ukrainian president said he was ready to buy more american weapons, that is send the aid, we're standing by, president trump immediately responded, i would like you to do us a favor, though. though. the bad news for trump is that the phone call itself is incriminating, but also the phone call provides one small glimpse into a sprawling covert effort. and there are two things that are true about all the people around trump that have watched this happen. one group is attempting to cover it all up because at some level they seem to know this was an abuse of power and possibly illegal. and the other group cronies recognized at the time this was an abuse of power, possibly illegal and have been and were
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sounding every alarm bell possible. today state department officials appeared before the house committees. he testified for nearly 4 hours this afternoon. in his opening statement anderson said when he pushed for increased white house support for the new ukrainian president former national security advisor john bolton warned that rudy giuliani, quote, was a key voice for the president of ukraine which could be an obstacle to increased white house engagement. a captain craft took over for anderson in july after spending two years as a director. she testified for nearly five hours this morning. she described her earliest experience as a push to remove the ambassador of ukraine, quote, during my time i received multiple calls from lobbyist robert livingston who told me the ambassador should be fired. it was not clear to me at the time or now -- i documented these calls and told my boss.
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it's probably worth noting here lobbyist robert livingston is one and the same as the former bill clinton president-elect who had to leave because he admitted to affairs and had to resign. the infamous notorious to john bolton has been invited to testify before the investigating house committees next friday, november 7th. now are remember several witnesses have already testified that bolton was concerned about trump's ukraine pressure campaign. he told multiple witnesses to contact nsc lawyers, referred to the whole scheme perfectly as quote a drug deal. every day the scope of this entire thing and those who knew about it keeps getting bigger including the number two guy at the state department, john sullivan. he went before the senate relations committee where he was seeking to be confirmed as the
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next ambassador to russia. >> do you think it's ever appropriate for the president to use his office to solicit investigations into a domestic political opponent? >> solitting investigations into a domestic political opponent, i don't think that would be in accord with our values. >> you were aware that there were individuals and forces outside the state department seeking to smear ambassador yovanovitch, is that correct? >> i was. >> and seeking to remove her? and did you know mr. giuliani was one of those people? >> i believe he was, yes. >> well, that's something. i don't think anybody was expecting that secretary of state mike pompeo's second in command to go as far as he did, condemning trump's pressure campaign, throwing rudy giuliani under the bus. although some admitted he knew what was happening and did nothing. and that guy is likely to be the next ambassador to russia, the country occupying a large chunk of ukraine and he apparently took no action.
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now, president trump wants to pivot away from complaining about the process of democrats impeachment investigation. ee sent a distress signal this morning imploring, quote, republicans, yes he did spell it that way, go with substances and close it out. the problem for trump is that subsns is the bad part. we know the transcript was damning. last night after we got off air alexander vindman testified yesterday the white house transcript of a july call between president trump omitted crucial words and phrases and that his attempts to include them failed. you'll remember trump said and says that the call was perfect and said it was a word for word transcript, but that's not true. and if was true why did the white house try to hide the call by appropriately putting in a secret classified server and why it release this incomplete version and prevent lieutenant colonel vindman from including
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the information he felt warranted. and joining me now ambassador sonia soderingberg, represented the united states at the u.n. security counsel. ambassador, let me start with you as someone who was on the national security council and also served as the ambassador u.n. security council. what do you make of these sort of two groups of people that have emerged here, the president's cronies and flunkies pursuing the shadow foreign policy of rudy giuliani, and the amazing stream of people coming forward at the risk of their jobs still before the government to say this was wrong? >> i think we have to pay tribute to the courageous public servants standing up at great personal risk to tell the truth. i never had any clue what the political sursituation of the career foreign service officer, and no one bothered to acask their career servants telling
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truth to power and deserve our strong support and applause. what's happening around the president is an effort to deflect, dissuade, create distractions here. they need to start frankly planning a defense, and i think that's what's going to happen once this impeachment program begins officially tomorrow. >> the planning of defense it strikes me as the president who sort of led the charge and wining about the process, now telling them enough of the process, talk about the substance. the substance is bad and seems a disconnect between how the president sees what he did and almost everyone around him who were working hard to cover it up, keep it secret and hide it which itself shows a consciousness of guilt. >> the president tried to offer a bribe to a foreign leader. your colleague has talked about this, protect democracy and learned about this. if founders in the constitution
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detailed two specific grounds for impeachment in addition to the catch all high crimes and misdemeanors. and those are treason or bribery. and the founders understood as offering a thing of value, in an attempt to induce a government official to engage in a corrupt act. that's what president trump did, he induced a bribe and that's going to be pretty hard to defend. >> continue to be astounded, nancy, by how wide the operation was, the amount of people it touched, the amount of people it had to go through as they were running this kind of shadow campaign. >> the study and what they've done is essentially take the russian mob boss led by this guy's who's on house arrest in vienna firtash, and he's hired his goons and giuliani has gone around and gotten into that circle who want to get in that corrupt trough in ukraine and
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that's who's behind this conspiracy theory rick perry, and i don't think he was aware of what was going on. all of this is going to become public. and what you're seeing is a methodical building of the case the president held up ukrainian military aid that he rightly had increased, by the way, in order to dig up daughter on his opponent and try and deflect from the fact everyone agrees the russians did interfere in our campaign. it is not going to work and what's going to happen is career public serve want who all run the government and when was when i was in government as a political appointee they're patriotic and good and know how things work. you can't cut them out. tomorrow, you're going to have a national security official, tim morrison who's a bolton appointee, a very hard line republican career in congress and who just quit tonight because he's going to be testifying tomorrow, there is no way that these supporters of the
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president can defend his patriotism. hez not a partisan hack. and i think they need to call out the president's supporters are impugning the patriotism of these fine hardworking patriots, and that's un-american, and we all need to call them out and stop that. >> the president's defenders have sort of engineered a neat bit of circular knowledge in which democrats who attack the president are republicans -- >> liz cheney to her credit has stood up and i applaud her for that. we need to have more standing up and saying do not ipumpugn thes career pa career patriotic public servants. >> siit's certainly not the pla for career service, foreign
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service to set the precedent. as someone who worked as a lawyer for president barack obama, white house council's office, what do you say to that? >> look, obviously the president under our constitution gets to set the foreign policy of the united states, but it has to be in service of american interest and public interest. and the problem here is from congress to the executive branch, to democrats to republicans there's broad agreement the american interest is in a non-corrupt, pro-democratic western aligned ukraine. the only person who's pushing against that right now is donald trump. and if he were doing that for some legitimate public interest, he'd center the right to do that. but if he's doing it for a corrupt interest, doing it to help his political campaign or personal interest, that's not legitimate. come on, donald trump cares as much about stopping corruption in ukraine as marboro cares about stopping cancer.
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it's not a legitimate interest, it's a corrupt one. >> there's one aspect i thought ambassador sodenberg was interesting, the way he phrased it, we've been talking about manufacturing dirt on a political opponent, but vindman put it wasn't in terms as meddling in the election, but it was just improper to have a foreign government set its sights on an american citizen. if an american citizen committed some intraction that's a problem for american law enforcement but of course there's no predicate for investigation. what do you think about that framing? >> first of all vindman was an incredible -- incredibly credible individual who got up there and said that. and i think what you're seeing and the big picture here is the president welcoming meddling of the russians here, bringing in outside people to try to impugn the reputation of the united states and set aside the career patriots of our country where
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advice is not being listened to. and in the end it's going to come out what's happening and they need to stop this show like the wizard affozlook over here and start getting serious about what happened and recognizing there's going to be huge fall out of that. the president may or may not get impeached, he may or may not get convicted in the senate, but this is real and starts tomorrow. and they need to start dealing the facts. it will come out, the president's very powerful but not all-powerful, and he will not be able to stop the truth from coming out. >> thank you both. joining me for more on what we learned today robert costa, and michelle goldberg. and i'd just gotten word the house rules committee has passed out of the rules committee the wasluti resolution which will now go to the floor. she said you wait until we have the votes and then she clenched her fist and then you take it to
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vote. i think we're basically seeing that theory in action. >> yeah, they certainly have it. and it's amazing how many kind of things keep happening in their favor day by day, right? just very recently john bolton's lawyer said that he won't testify without a subpoena, which basically means he will testify because what they've din doing to all these of people who have been testifying is giving them a subpoena as sort of justification for them defying the white house, right? so that's kind of an astonishing thing that john bolton is willing to -- if john bolton ends up breaking with this administration and testifying before, you know, nancy pelosi's impeachment inquiry, that's a -- that's a huge blow. >> robert, you've been doing great reporting up on the hill with a great piece the other day with sort of senate republicans. i just get the sense the president hasn't taken a particular line. i think his line would be it's
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fine, i can do whatever i want. do house republicans have clarity about what their argument is here? >> they do have clarity, but they have immense challenges in front of them, chris, talking to republicans tonight and taking this away frim the judiciary committee where republicans were ready to defend the president and some of his top allies and moving the process to the intelligence committee and bringing the investigation behind closed doors, building the case and bringing it eventually to the public, and this has left many republicans in the house and senate feeling like their hands are tied behind their back and they're not having a chance to challenge the witnesses and the white house isn't giving clear guidance. >> that is really fascinating and from a strategic standpoint it's been a stroke of brilliance and there's also the fact that one of the arguments that it's clear from the sondland texts where he says the president has been very clear there's no quid
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pro quo, donald trump seems to think unless he said the words, quid pro quo, unlessthrust explicitly a this for that, he's in the clear then you have more people saying yes, there was a quid pro quo and vindman yesterday saying this, the $400 million in security aid and the meeting was contingent apparently the words of vindman on burisma, the bidens and there are multiple witnesses saying now there was a quid pro quo. >> and he said there was no quid pro quo, he was relaying trump's words but didn't actually have any knowledge whether there was or not. i don't want to get into donald trump's theory of mind, right, but i do think that he probably believed some of this stuff, right, which does give him in his own mind a justification -- but he still thinks not only is there a physical server but it really is locked away somewhere
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in kiev, and to me the interesting thing that's come out in the last couple of days donald trump is emerging as both the criminal and mark in that he's obviously tried to corrupt this whole process, but he also has people whispering in his ear, and we don't know where they come from. we don't know there was a story in politico about a guy under the national security council that trump thought was the head -- that trump thought was his ukraine expert but really someone who worked for devin nunes and was telling him all this stuff. i was in ukraine recently. there's a lot of russian aligned interests who have their own reasons. >> and that is part of the story here, like who is manipulating whom in all this. it strikes me republicans are going to be bound a little bit by the president himself in their defenses. there are certain defenses republicans could marshal that might be effective politically but would enrage the president.
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one of them he was effectively too dumb to do a quid pro quo. there was a headline today he wants you to know he's smart enough to do a quid pro quo. the other is that it was wrong and not impeachable. how do you think the president's views will impact what arguments the president feels they can make. >> if they look at the facts and they're not ready to defend the president on the facts because they don't even have a complete picture of what his conduct was in the summer of 2019 and even before that. and now they're talking about can they frame the process as partisan, talk about the process, it's something a little bit too much and essentially retreated to bunker mode politically, argue against the process but avoid talking about the facts. >> that strikes me -- that's a great elucidation why they focus on the process, but there's going to be a vote on the floor
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tomorrow and the president could defend the facts because the president thinks he's essentially beyond good and evil, but we'll find out. thank you both. still ahead, for only the fourth time in american history congress is preparing for an impeachment inquiry of a sitting united states president. what happened in the rules committee which just voted moments ago and what we can expect going forward with a member of house leadership in two minutes. a member of house leadership in two minutes. especially these days. (dad) i think it's here. (mom vo) especially at this age. (big sis) where are we going? (mom vo) it's a big, beautiful world out there. (little sis) whoa... (big sis) wow. see that? (mom vo) sometimes you just need a little help seeing it. (vo) the three-row subaru ascent. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. we're reporters from the new york times. no flights. no roads. we're trying to figure out what animals are being affected.
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the midst of an impeachment inquiry right now. no one runs for congress to impeach a president, but we are here today because the facts compel us to be. >> as you just heard for the fourth time in the country's history the house of representatives is moving forward with impeachment proceedings into a sitting president. the house committee just wrapped up voting on, it was a 9 to 4 party line vote. the resolution now moves to the house floor tomorrow. >> i don't know whether president trump will be impeached, only the facts and how we respond to them will dictate that. but i can tell you this, this process determining whether he should be impeached will be open to the public view just as it should be. >> i want to talk about that, what that's going to look like. congressman david cicilliny, democrat from rhode island which is in charge of advancing
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articles of impeachment. the resolution passed torules committee. what does that mean and what happens next? >> well, what happens next is that resolution was brought to the floor tomorrow, and assuming it is approved which i expect it will be, it sets forth the procedures for the next phase of the impeachment inquiry, the public hearing phase. it authorizes the intelligence committee and the other committees of jurisdiction to complete their work. it allows them to transfer to the judiciary committee a report and recommendations if they find evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors and sets forth procedures in the judiciary committee for the consideration of articles of impeachment that are very expansive for the president. >> public hearings, a is their a time line, and b, there is a hearings of jurisdiction on those, and can we expect these all to float through judiciary or can we imagine other committees also having public hearing? >> i think you should expect the intelligence committee will
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continue to have the intelligence focus of this inquiry, that is the ukraine scandal that's been under way by the intelligence committee in consultation with foreign affairs. i expect the conclusion of those hearings, they'll then make a report and remation to the judiciary committee that will have to consider whether or not to move forward on articles of impeachment. and i will just say that the chairman's remarks really do capture the center of the caucus. sis is serious moment. i think no one is delighting in doing this. the facts have required us to move forward in this fashion, and i think everyone is approaching is in a very serious way. >> talk me through how you and your colleagues are thinking about minority rights in this process. obviously the house is mujoritarian institution, you guys call the shots and make the rules. but someday you'll be on the other side of this. you've been in the minority and will again probably. what do you view as their role
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and what they're entitled to in this process? >> well, i mean, i think everyone is committed to ensuring this process is fair, that the minority and the president have an opportunity to make their case, to present evidence, to present arguments, to cross examine witnesses. so if you look through the resolution, we've actually afforded the minority much greater rights than existed in the clinton and nixon impeachments. and we're doing that because we want to be sure the process is fair, that the president will have opportunity to present evidence, cross examine witnesses through his counsel, to attend the hearings in his judiciary committee to make a closing argument. so there are substantial rights which don't really have to be afforded at this stage. they're traditionally afforded at the trial stage in the senate. what we're trying to do is actually afford greater right tuesday the president because we want to be sure the american people see this process as transparent and fair and the president and the republican allies have the opportunity to make their case.
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i think the evidence being collected in this inquiry is significant, and we want the president to have an opportunity to respond to it. >> there's a schedule for testimony behind closed doors in private depositions from the intelligence committee now through november 7th, if i'm not mistaken. do you have any sense of what the time line is should this resolution be passed tomorrow which knowing speaker pelosi i have to imagine you have the votes. >> we have a very robust schedule continuing to have depositions for the next several weeks or at least the next two weeks. obviously the chairman of the intelligence committee in consultation with the foreign affairs and oversight committees will make a determination as to when that work is complete. we learn new things every day, so i think we want to be sure we are carefully collecting all the evidence in this case so we can prentd to the committee of jurisdiction a complete picture. but everyone recognizes it's important we move forward expeditiously but we want to do it in a thorough way. we want to be sure we're
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collecting all the evidence. and i've been through those depositions and you learn new things every day, that seem to warrant bringing in another witness or seeking additional documents. at some point we'll have to come to the conclusion we have sufficient evidence to move forward, and the committees will make their recommendation. >> thanks for making time tonight. next, congress finally calls a dangerous new witness for president trump for national security advisor yon bolton knows about trump's ukraine scheme after this. s about trump scheme after this. with this key to the city. [ applause ] it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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john bolton, trump's former
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national security advisor is perhaps notoriously one of the most brutal and ruthless knife fighters around the u.s. government. his time was short and contentious. bullet as most republicans in bolton's position have remained somewhat beholden to trump, bolton has not. in a new piece in "the washington post" greg miller points to a meeting as a moment of detonation of the ukraine crisis inside the white house. quote, two ukrainian officials were ushered into a meeting in bolton's office in the west wing along with sondland, hill, and others. sondland turned the conversation away from ongoing corruption probes to specific investigations important to trump according to testimony from vindman. bolton was so alarmed by the exchange he ended the meeting abruptly and ordered those gathered out of his office. now bolton could be a dangerous witness against the president.
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for more on those fateful white house meetings i'm joined by greg miller, national security correspondent for "the washington post." the picture you described based on the testimony is really remarkable. what is your understanding of how important this meeting was in the progression of what is now an impeachment level scandal? >> i think it's a really important moment, and that's why we thought it was important to separate this out in reconstructing the stay at this white house. and it's important to me for a couple of reasons, chris, i think this is the moment we can real really establish so far the quid pro quo of this scheme is articulated inside the white house. and not only that but you have a very violent reaction to that articulation inside the white house. it's not just bolton who recoils at the mention of this by sondland but fiona hill and others who then proceed to go to
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white house lawyers to register their really deep concerns with this. i mean, people have described this moment as a moment where bolton goes ballistic. it's when he uses this infamous line comparing this whole endeavor to a drug deal. >> and what's key here also it's not just what happens on the call, this is before the call by 15 days that sondland articulating inside the walls of the white house to ukrainian officials, you don't get this stuff unless you do the investigations, that that's the first thing, the first tripwire for going to lawyers to say something is wrong here. >> yeah, and these are white house officials including bolton who have been really -- their anxiety has been growing for months because they've seen rudy giuliani on television shows and saying what he's saying spinning conspiracy theories about ukraine. they know the u.s. ambassador to ukraine was mysteriously removed, abruptly removed but
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this was the sort of moment of reckoning for them, when it all sort of laid out explicitly in front of them. >> this all builds up to bolton, right? fiona hill has come forward, and she gave testimony in defiance of the white house telling her not to, she's left. i mean, bolton seems like the most high profile, the most key and in some ways probably the most dangerous witness for the president. his lawyer tonight saying that he is not willing to appear voluntarily, but he stands ready at all times to accept service of a subpoena on his behalf. do you read that to say i will come if you subpoena me sph. >> i don't quite get there with that language from his lawyer, stands ready for the service of subpoena. i mean, bolton and his deputy charles cupperman are engaged in an interesting side battle here that seems like it's complicated but designed to sort out which legal authority should prevail here and whether they should be
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compelled to go and testify before congress. >> what is your reporting to indicate about bolton's current relationship with president trump? >> we know that it ended terribly. we know bolton is sort of forced out, deeply angry about the sort of things that he couldn't accomplish policy wise in the white house. he tries to establish that he's not being fired even though trump is asserting that he was, and you basically saw mike pompeo and others practically giddy at his departure on that day, so i mean there can't be warm feelings between john bolton and that white house crew right now. >> greg miller, thank you very much for joining us tonight. ahead why even sents republicans are balking at the president's scheme to install a hard liner at dhs. plus tonight's thing 1, thing 2 coming up. onight's thing 1, thi coming up.
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shutt shuttle challenger disaster unfolds. and he took over as he signed over a nuclear agreement. and hr halderman was there in, and he later went to jail for his boss. never officially had the title but was right there with jfk during the cuban missile crisis. these days not so much. trump's got mick mulvaney the acting chief of staff with two full time jobs and a pocket full of shamrocks. mulvaney is basically just treated like a chump by the president. >> at some point i hope they get it because it's a fantastic financial statement. it's a fantastic financial statement. and let's do that over, he's coughing in the middle of my answer. i don't like that, you know? >> trump doesn't like that, mulvaney. that's thing 2 in 60 seconds. , mulvaney that's thing 2 in 60 seconds ♪ (dramatic orchestra)
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chief of staff as we said is right there with the biggest, with the president on the biggest moments in history. who could forget the iconic photo of president obama and his team in the situation room thenith they took out bin laden. you can see of course chief of staff dennis mcdonough right there in the center, and also in the situation room as president trump and his team monitored developments in the baghdadi raid. now, trump's acting chief of staff mick mulvaney can't be seen in this photo unless you zoom out pretty significantly. no, keep going. keep going. all right, a little more. a little more. and there he is. it looks like he's in myrtle beach. nbc news reporting today that the night of the raid mick mulvaney was in fact in south carolina. he'd gone to his home state for the weekend and was not notified about the raid until it was already happening.
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left out of the whole thing. i'm sure this has been very embarrassing for mulvaney but also i'm sure nobody wanted to jeopardizes the mission with the guy in the room distracting everybody. >> they're after my financial statement, the senate. they'd like to get my financial statement. at some point i hope they get it. >> you can turn it over? >> at some point, i might. but at some point i hope they get it because it's a fantastic financial statement. it's a fantastic financial statement. and -- let's do that over. he's coughing in the middle of my answer. i don't like that, you know? if you're going to cough, please leave the room. >> yes i'm supporting donald trump doing so as enthusiastically as i can. s enthusiastically as i can. if you have moderate to severe psoriasis,
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hey, me towel su towel. there's more gain scent plus oxi boost and febreze odor remover in every fling. gain. seriously good scent. donald trump is now in the market for his fifth secretary of homeland security. john kelly was the first one, elaine duke served briefly as acting, kevin mcaleenan was also a secretaries and some reporting indicates the president did not think kevin mcaleenan was tough enough although he did work to make it much, much harder for asylum seekers to enter the country. now the president is looking for a new promably crueller and even more lawless homeland security
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secretary. one of them is a guy ken cuccinelli, you may remember him over the summer as the guy who basically suggested a rewrite engraved on a bronze plaque inside a pedestal of the statue of liberty, give me your tired and poor who can stand on their own two feet and it will not become a public charge. it doesn't have quite the same ring. and here he was today at a public asylum hearing. >> that's false. >> i'm sorry, please don't interrupt me. >> that's defamatory. >> excuse me, there's nothing defamatory about it. >> the gentle lady controls the time and the witness will get a chance to respond. >> thank you very much. you want to block all immigration and make life harder for immigrants and you will pursue this heinous ikaelg at all costs, even if it makes making politically ill children collateral damage in the process. >> after declaring i'm not a
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white supremacist as you've alluded nor is the president. >> okay, facts matter. >> ken cuccinelli has even rub his own party the wrong way, so much so reporting indicates he probably would not get confirmed. they're bearing a grudge from some past political actions he took. so now the white house is trying to explore a loophole to what donald trump took and the way they plan on doing that is appointing that person to a completely unrelated position and moving that person into a dhs job. that is how they plan on getting trump a crueller homeland security secretary. it is unclear if it will work. trump keeps going through dhs secretaries, though, because the real person palling the strings is white house senior policy advisor stephen miller. we'll talk about him and what he has brought next. t he has brought next and private clouds, and hybrid clouds-
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the end result of this, though, is that our opponents, the media, and the whole world
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will soon see as we begin to take further actions that the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned. >> stephen miller, senior white house policy advisor back in february 2017 making the case that donald trump's immigration policy, specifically haze muslim ban which they had to withdraw because it was unlawful shall not be questioned. that was on brand for stephen miller's who i could you could say is politely a hard liner, destroy the department of homeland security as any kind of government institution with any independent integrity. and when you're seeing the damage of his ceaseless meddling first-hand in the policies being carried out. cnn reporting we're on track to admit zero refugees in the month of october, not one. that comes as the migration picture is ever more dire than ever. "the new york times" reporting the detention of children trying to cross the southwest border is at now a record high.
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here with me now nbc national security and justice reporter julia ansley. julia, let me start with you just on that final note. my understanding is this up tick in unaccompanied minors being aphenlded and then put into detention is because of the, quote, remain in mexico policy. there's tens of thousands stranded getting so desperate they're sending their kids, is that what's happening? >> there are even some stories where parents weren't sure where they children were and had left and abandoned ship in order to get into the united states. and in mexico an unaccompanied child is actually seen as a fast track for deportation. there are laws there to protect children from being trafficked. meaning any time they see an unaccompanied child they have a very small chance of getting asimem and a much larger chance of getting deported back into
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their home country. things are very dangerous for them, and we saw this happening at the same time last year in tijuana when we saw the metering, that's when they'd only let in a few people a day to claim asylum. now you have this a on a whole scale level, people in different parts along the border are being sent back into mexico where they face it look like refugee camps and incredebly unsafe conditions. these are not towns that were setup to really provide any safe harbor. in fact, the whole point of policy, chris, and this gets into steven miller's strategy is to make it so arduous for anyone to claim asylum they would give up while they're waiting there. >> congresswoman, one immigration lawyer told me that stephen miller and president trump have effectively destroyed the statutory basis for asylum, that this is enshrined in
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american law and using the return to mexico policy the way they've implemented metering it essentially no longer exists at the southern border. is that an accurate characterization? >> well, it's true that's what they're trying to do. some of those cases are still held up in court because we do have statutory right to asime both in our domestic laws but our treaties we're sigatory to. what they're doing is trying to discourage people over and over again in more and more draconian ways. first they tried it with family separation. they were actually separating children from their mothers and fathers, you covered that. that is still going on but in different ways. they they tried saying we're going to put a ban on asylum. the court said, no, you can't do that. they've cut refugee admissions, by the way. they're effectively trying to eliminate every legal way that people have to seek refuge in
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the united states. >> there's two ways to come in, right, if you're fleeing oppression or some searany, right, you can come and declare yourself an asylum seeker at the border. then you can do it for the refugee process which is very well vetted, they have essentially squeezed that off, too. what does it tell you they've gone after both of those? >> well, i don't know if you were -- sorry, were you directing that -- >> yes, please. >> okay, so what they have literally had in mind, and this is steven miller's long time plan is to cut immigration to zero. they have tried to take away family migration. they have obviously started deporting people in the united states using terrible programs like secure communities and other ways that you can increase enforcement of people across the country and kick them out. and then at the border they've stopped in every way possible, i
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was in those courts, they're called migrant protection protocol, which is a complete misnomer because there's really no due process. there's no protection. these people are being bussed over from mexico. and then they're ending refugees. so their goal is to stop even legal immigration into the united states. >> julia, quickly, dhs just seems completely dysfunctional at this moment. what happens to this agency next? >> that's a good question. i mean, we've looked at who the president could possibly appoint, and katy tur and i reported last week that one of the people being looked at was a man named chad wolf who was one of the people who proposed all the logistical ways they could separate families, but he's not seen as hard enough, chris. so right now the president is not only looking at who aligns with stephen miller but who will go on tv and defend his policies, but for all the reasons you laid out but the
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president wants to walk around, all the rules normally in place for federal vacancies, but i'll tell you from people i speak to it's already been chaotic. they have policies enacted through a tweet before they actually get a memo how to implement it, and courts are holding things up. every day they have to figure out how they're going to carry out these policies. not having someone either confirmed or even an in acting position is hard for them. >> thank you both. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> good evening, my friend. much appreciated. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. you almost never get footage of these things right as they're happening. even if get footage of these confrontations, it's often from some great distance or through some, you know, grainy surveillance interface, and you
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