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tv   AM Joy  MSNBC  November 3, 2019 7:00am-9:00am PST

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month wikileaks began releasing the hacked dnc emails. we know that thanks to 274 pages of new documents prepared by robert mueller's team and obtained by buzzfeed news and cnn on saturday. which includes notes of interviews with manafort's right-hand man, former trump campaign adviser rick gates. gates recalled manafort saying the hack was likely carried out by the ukrainians, not the russians. the newly released documents also include explosive emails from other campaign officials like steve bannon who took over the running -- running the trump campaign when manafort was obstensibly fired in august 2016. take this email exchange on november 5th, 2016, three days before the election, which shows that paul manafort was still in touch with the campaign months after being fired. in it, manafort emailed jared kushner, quote, i am really feeling good about our prospects
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on tuesday. i sent this to reince and briefed rick gates and hannity. later that night, steve bannon emailed kushner and said, quote, we need to avoid this guy like the plague. they're going to try and say the russians worked with wikileaks to give this victory to us. paul is a nice guy, but can't let word get out he is advising us. we've also learned just how hard donald trump was pushing to get hillary clinton's emails himself and the extent to which mike flynn, donald trump's first national security adviser, was willing to obtain them. from the mueller notes, gates recalled a time on the campaign aircraft when candidate trump said get the emails. flint said he could use his intelligence sources to obtain the emails. flynn was adamant the russians did not carry out the hack. joining me now, midwin charles, a civil trial and criminal defense attorney, cynthia oxney, msnbc legal analyst and former
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federal prosecutor. paul butler, also an msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor and jennifer rubin, msnbc political analyst and my colleague at "the washington post." all, thank you very much for being here. this is a treasure trove of information that we have found out as a result of this lawsuit from buzzfeed news and cnn. i'm going to go around the table and get reactions. midwin since you're here, i'm going to come to you last. >> that's fine. save the best for last. >> exactly. paul butler, let me start with you. let's get your reaction. >> first, shout out to robert mueller. he's been criticized for not being aggressive enough in going after donald trump. but when you look at this treasure trove, look at how many people high up in the trump campaign are now in federal prison. so we have michael cohen, the president's lawyer. we have paul manafort, the
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campaign director. rick gates the deputy director, michael flynn, the national security director. they're all in federal prison. robert mueller locked them all up. and what we know now is that the trump campaign was rooted in corruption through and through, and the impeachment inquiry shows us that that corruption didn't stop. it only continued once trump and his cronies reached the white house. >> we go to the other federal prosecutor. cynthia, your reaction? >> well, i spent a lot of time this morning reading this document and so the public understands, most of it is blank. there's a lot -- >> redacted you mean. >> it's all redacted. >> so usually what we see when we have the release is these black lines that go through statements. this one is just big empty white boxes. so there's a lot more to this story that we don't know. for example, and that's what i think about is my compulsive self. like, for instance, the steve
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bannon interview. there's only one interview. well, steve bannon was interviewed numerous times. three rick gates interviews. he was interviewed probably 50 times. and so for me, because i am compulsive, i like to read every 302 and compare it to the next 302 and we don't have that complete picture yet. and there will be more releases of documents every month. the people who are released here are going to be the witnesses in the stone trial that's coming up. and so this information was going to come out and i'm -- hopefully by the time the stone trial comes out, we get to fill in the blachknks. there are some highlights about the battle between the ukrainian ukrainians and russian ukrainians and manafort's motivations that are fascinating and the way he was trying to spin it as the ukrainian ukrainians so he could make more money with the russian ukrainians and on some level it does just muddy up the waters
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and make things difficult for the impeachment investigation. >> i'm going to keep going with the attorneys and not save the best for last and come to midwin charles here. >> thank god for the freedom of information act, right? passed in 1967 which is an act that basically said that we as the public have a right to know what's going on with federal agencies. so long as there is no issue of national security or law enforcement. so that's how these cnn and buzzfeed obtained these memos and thank goodness for them. but i want to take a moment to underscore or echo paul's point about the fact that mueller did a very good job with locking up a lot of these people. as i look through these notes, one of the things i notice is that everybody mentioned in this for the most part is now a felon. and that is astonishing, right, when you're thinking about a presidential campaign that just about every single person involved in this sort of scheme and chasing down a conspiracy which trump seems to be obsessed with, right? we see him retweeting many, many different conspiracies.
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but what i found so surprising is that these are people who were operating on a high level, the campaign manager, deputy campaign manager, foreign adviser, so many people who were now felons. so paul is right. mueller did do a very, very good job. and i think that that is clear when you read these memos. you see a group of people who were running behind the scenes and trying to find a way to cheat. i think it's important for people to step back from what's going on with ukraine and realize that this is a man who was running for office and was looking for a way to do it by cheating. and that's very important to always remember throughout all of this. but you also saw in these memos a sort of real freezer between bannon and kushner. angry he's on vacation with a russian oligarch and wants him to come back. it gives us a painting of what
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was going on. >> we've got four lawyers in this segment. jennifer rubin is a recovering lawyer but also my colleague at "the washington post." jennifer, your reaction to all of this? >> i think what it reminds me is that this whole presidency succeeded for the russians beyond their wildest expectations. how did this whole thing start? it started with constantine kilimnik who is tied to russian intelligence dropping the notion in paul manafort's ear, perhaps it was a receptive audience but nevertheless, coming from kilimnik, that it's not the russians. it's all about the ukrainians. this is preposterous. we know our entire intelligence community confirmed it's the russians. we know that putin was involved in the decision. it's the russians. nevertheless, by setting this bug into the campaign and circulating around to trump, he is still obsessed with this. he is still doing, in essence, russia's bidding by trying to,
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frankly, discredit the mueller investigation which pointed to russia and to implicate russia's -- the country that russia is invade chicaing, whic ukraine. why is he involved in an impeachment proceeding? because he went back to ukraine looking for dirt on joe biden but also looking for that computer, that server that he thinks because he was told it, is somehow in ukraine or controlled by the ukrainians. so it's russia, russia, russia. >> there is another element here in these documents that were released that i thought was rather explosive. and this is the one where it said that gates said after the democratic national convention in late july 2016, trump and gates were in a car transiting from trump tower to laguardia. gates gathered that during a phone call came in and gates gathered that during this phone call, there would be additional leaks coming.
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gates thought this because shortly after boarding the plane, trump stated that more leaks were coming. this is -- whoever wants to jump in on this -- >> guess what, jonathan, the leaks came so what these new documents reveal is that the trump campaign was obsessed with obtaining hillary clinton's emails. this is paul manafort, the campaign manager. don junior, jared kushner and donald trump, meeting after meeting, we've got to get those emails, and then michael flynn, again, the national foreign policy adviser says, look, i got intelligence connections. i've got the hook-up. i'm going to look into getting those emails. and what do we know? we know that trump made these speeches in which he seemed to have advance knowledge that emails that russia and russian operatives stole, they stole
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them to help donald trump win the election. donald trump seemed to know when some of these emails were something. again, he said he had to have them. he got them. and he deployed those russian-hacked emails to advance his campaign to get in the oval office. >> paul, to your point, also in the documents, and i'm sorry i didn't show this before. gates said donald trump jr. would ask where the emails were in family meetings. flynn, kushner, manafort, redacted, lewandowski and jeff sessions expressed interest in obtaining the emails as well. the priority focuses were clinton's emails and contributions to the clinton foundation. and it goes on and on and on. these folks were -- i mean, obsessed i think is too kind a word, midwin, to say what they were trying to do in terms of getting these emails.
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>> right. getting these emails and also discrediting donations to the clinton foundation which we all know is still in operation. according to charity watch in 2016, has received an "a" rating and found that 88% of donations go to their charitable causes. and where is the trump foundation right now? defunct. >> buying portraits. >> when these documents came out, and talked about the lengths with ukraine and the trump campaign and the conspiracy theory and manafort, i went back in time to july 2016 when something else happened. and that was the republican platform committee meeting where a resolution was put in by a delegate who was a former -- i think ted cruz supporter diana dedmond. and there you see the npr story how the trump campaign weakened
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the republican' campaign. but our colleague josh rogan at "the washington post" wrote about this on july 18th, 2016. it had been the policy of the republican party criticizing then-president obama for not giving lethal weaponry to ukraine to defend itself against russia. and she was trying to put in a thing here in the republican platform saying that they -- the republican party, as a matter of policy, would do that and support that and there were trump people in that meeting who watered it down to the point where it was basically innocu s innocuous. and she told josh rogan, i was troubled when they put aside by amendment and watered it down. i said what is your problem with the country that wants to remain free? it seems like a simple thing. am i wrong in thinking that all of these things are connected? >> they are. we have come full circle when donald trump now in 2019 is withholding aid to ukraine in
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order to get help getting re-elected. it's russia, russia, russia. i also think back, jonathan, to that meeting that he had in helsinki for which we have no notes with vladimir putin. and he comes out again spilling the notion, shouting and telling us the propaganda that putin would like us to believe, that it wasn't russia, that maybe it was someone else. so these same themes keep bouncing around and around. first, it wasn't russia. there's doubt as to russia. russia didn't do it. maybe it was somebody else. false. second, that ukraine really isn't a real country. that's some of what donald trump is now spouting, according to news reports. that's russian propaganda that we shouldn't be giving aid to ukraine because they will use it to defend themselves against russia. another theme. all of this stuff does not benefit the united states national security. it is for one purpose, and that is to give russia goodies. whether you believe they have
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dirt on donald trump or not, there is nothing that he has done in all of this and practically no statement he has made in public that is inconsistent with the interest of putin and he russians. and i think that's where it has always been. that's where it remains. and i think what happened this time around was that there was one too many people in the room when they decided to put the strong arm to ukraine. and because of that, we now have a window into what his obsession, what his anger towards ukraine is all about. >> and with that, we're going to have to leave it there. my panel will be back with us throughout the show. coming up, the alternative facts squad is on the case. we'll show you how trump's team is trying to shape the news, next. motor? nope.
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kellyanne, the president didn't release the aid until the story was out. >> you are trying to make that causation where it may be -- >> i find it an interesting coincidence. >> they've got their aid and that's what's important. >> no, no, now, but -- >> it was held up until the 11th of september and the only reason it came out was because -- >> no, didn't say that. don't go there. you have no idea that's why it was held up. >> you think that's a coincidence that -- >> please do not make a statement not under oath that you don't know is truth. i'm suggesting that you don't know what you were just about to say to be true.
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>> kellyanne conway this morning with her latest rendition of alternative facts. the white house's latest spin comes as a new nbc/"wall street journal" poll shows that more than half of americans support the impeachment inquiry. and a plurality, 49%, say congress should impeach trump and remove him from office. and wouldn't you know, a fox news poll found the exact same percentage who support impeachment and removal. back with me, cynthia oxney, paul butler and jennifer rubin. cynthia, i wasn't able to get to you in the last segment. are you surprised that there is such consistency in the polls now with the plurality of the american people supporting impeachment and removal when just even three months ago or maybe two months ago, the american people support for such a thing wasn't nearly as high. >> well, here's what's happened to me this year. i'm surprised by nothing in politics. so that's one thing.
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i am worried that people are -- will solidify at some point instead of being open to figuring out what really happened, which is what we need to do, right? and now it looks like the republicans are moving to the next phase of this defense which is the same defense that was in the mueller case. it couldn't really be -- it can't really be impeachable because it didn't really work. they got the aid. and that's what happened in the mueller case. there wasn't really obstruction because even though comey was fired, there was still an investigation. because it didn't really work. and so we've moved from -- it didn't happen, there was no quid pro quo to there was but it didn't work. and somehow i'm -- i see that evolution and i wonder if people won't justice thr throw up thei. >> go ahead. finish your thought, cynthia. >> this is such an important time for us as citizens to actually make a decision about -- is this the way we want our government to work. all kidding aside, all i'm a
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democrat, you're a republican aside, is this what we want? and we have to decide that because if we say, sure, the president can basically trash this little country that's in the throws of trying to survive against russia, the president can do that. why even have an impeachment clause, right? why even bother? and what's to stop him, i think, as steve schmidt has said on this network the last couple of days. what is to stop him from, oh, i don't like jonathan capehart. let's check his taxes? >> please do not give the president any ideas? >> but, you know, it's the same thing. it's like, i don't like "the washington post," so we're not going to -- we're going to make your bezos doesn't get the defense contract. that's the thug behavior that we have to make a decision on a country is if we're going to find acceptable. i certainly do not and i don't want that for the future. >> to cynthia's point about we
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seem to be going down this road where as the republicans did with the mueller investigation, sort of throwing up so much dust that people don't know what to make of it that they're trying to do that here, do you have the same fear that cynthia has? >> well, i'm concerned that facts don't matter anymore. so if you look at the way that trump's defense has devolved, it started out as there was no quid pro quo. and that has been thoroughly discounted by facts. first, trump's own confession in that call to zelensky where he said i would like you to do us a favor, though, and then we have very credible people, ambassador yovanovitch and ambassador taylor, lieutenant colonel vindman all testifying under oath that trump's story, no quid pro quo, is a live. there was an explicit offer that
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everyone understood that american taxpayer dollars supporting ukraine military aid would be withheld unless ukraine did favors. unless they helped the president's political campaign, and then they could get the money that the country needed for its survival as a nation state. and so, you know, i think we know everything that we need to know. the president is corrupt. the president is likely a criminal, not just with regard to the mueller investigation, but with regard to these new allegations that are the subject of the impeachment inquiry. he's, at minimum, responsible for a conspiracy to violate federal campaign financing laws and also extortion. and so, jonathan, again, i think the bottom line is not so much what else are we going to find out. we already know enough. the question is, will republicans in the congress and senate fulfill their
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constitutional responsibility to provide checks and balances and to remove from office a man who has thoroughly abused the public trust. >> right. and we've got plenty of time down the road to see if they actually do that. but, jennifer, this is sunday. and all over the sunday shows are republicans out there. kellyanne conway being chief among them as we just saw, out there defending the -- defending the president. to my mind, defending the indefensible. and i say it's indefensible because we've watched the president several times on the south lawn of the white house saying, yeah, i did it. so do you have, given all of that, do you have the same fear that cynthia has that we're going down this road where the trump administration from the president on down will be able to confuse things so much that the american people say, you know what? this is too confusing. i don't get it and who cares? >> i think there are two things to keep an eye on. first, these polls have already
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moved a lot in a very short time to the point that watergate public opinion hadn't reached until a few weeks before richard nixon resigned. so i look at this a little bit as the glass half full. that the american people are already getting this. and they have yet to see the live witnesses as trump and the republicans keep pointing out. they want open hearings, okay. let's put mr. vindman -- let's put lieutenant colonel vindman on the stand in his dress uniform and have him tell the american people exactly what happened. there is no defense. there nor trump witnesses to call. who are they going to call to say, no, this didn't happen or no the transcript wasn't put on the service. maybe even john bolton will be compelling. the second thing is the house is one thing. the senate is another.
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and our paper, "the washington post" wrote a story over the weekend that the senators are having a little trouble figuring out what they're going to say. so the latest they've come up with, well, forget about no quid pro quo. it's just not illegal or impeachable. so the senate is far ahead of where the house is and then they're in the position of saying, well, it's okay to extort countries. that's not impeach abable. >> i see paul nodding vigorously. i want him to get in here. >> now the new defense seems to be, maybe it happened but it's not corrupt. it doesn't have to be a crime for impeachment when alexander hamilton thought about the standard, not to overturn an election but to remove from the oval office someone who is abusing his oath of office.
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someone who is abusing public trust. this is the textbook example that hamilton and the other framers had in mind. so the idea is, well, the president is in charge of the allocation of military aid. he gets to decide whatever criteria he wants. well, the criteria has to be in the interest of the united states, not in the support of donald trump's political ambitions and so that's what he did that's a crime. and there's no defense of that that we've heard. we've seen the republicans on the national news flailing about going from this to this. they still haven't come up with a legal defense or political defense for this. >> cynthia, let me give you the last word real fast. >> let's hope people can learn to have an open mind and evaluate where they want their country to go because this is what we're facing as a country. and i'm -- you know, i'm somewhat harkened by the polls and that there's movement, but there's also a lot of polling
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data that it's sort of stalled. so please encourage your friends and neighbors to keep an open mind. we need this for our country. >> and that's a perfect way to end this segment. thank you cynthia and paul butler. coming up, brand-new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll numbers, next.
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it's november 3rd, 2019, which means election day 2020 is exactly one year away. and slowly, slowly, the 2020 democratic field is winnowing with beto o'rourke dropping out on friday. of course, there's still more than a dozen democrats vying for the nomination. the latest nbc news/"wall street journal" poll shows just where the race is and the results may surprise you. more on that, next. snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mike's denture. but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. to help block out food particles. so he can enjoy the game. super poligrip. ok i'll admit. i didn't keep my place as clean as i would like 'cuz i'm way too busy. who's got the time to chase around down dirt, dust and hair? so now, i use heavy duty swiffer sweeper and dusters.
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iowa, i stand here before you today for the people fully prepared to defeat donald trump. >> this campaign has marched to the beat of its own drummer. we've been a little bit different from all the other campaigns. we haven't been the same. >> with just under 100 days until the crucial iowa caucuses, 2020 democrats descended on the hawkeye state this weekend to make their pitch at the liberty and justice celebration dinner. meanwhile, new national numbers from the latest nbc news/"wall street journal" poll out this morning shows the race is still far from over. the poll shows joe biden maintaining his lead, but
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dropping 4 points since september. elizabeth warren is close behind, and bernie sanders is gaining momentum. gaining 5 points since september. joining me now is karine jean-pierre of and author of "moving forward." and midwin charles is back with us. >> what's that in your hand? >> a copy of the book. >> she's an author. >> thank you. >> i'm glad both of you are here at the table. let's start with bernie sanders. >> yeah. >> he ran last time. he's had a heart attack. he comes back and he's gaining momentum. is there any explanation for this? >> so i think you said it right in your opening. the race is still not over. there's a long way to go. and we're seeing this. we've seen that in this poll and many other polls. look, i think, jonathan, we're in this like silly season of polls right now. if you want a poll that shows
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warren up, i can show you a poll. if you want a poll that shows biden up. if you want a poll that shows bernie coming back, i can show you a poll. and it's also if you want to show that a poll that shows peter buttigieg is in the first tier, top tier, i can show you that. and i think that's just kind of where we are. we still have a little bit more ways to go. and i think of polls that really matter are the state polls. a lot of undecided in those polls. people haven't made their minds up. and i think there's just a lot more to watch and to see where we're going here. >> i agree. i mean, i think what you see is playing out is that this is a long process. >> right. >> people are still taking their time to decide who it is that they like, who it is that they see working for, which i think is also important. you see kamala on the ground in iowa. she really has poured a lot of resources. >> she's moving there. >> she's moving there, yeah. >> and i believe she tops the list as -- in terms of number of visits when you compare it to
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the other candidates. but i think this is what the primary is about. it's about people feeling out who it is that they prefer, checking out their policies, although a lot of people don't really get into the nitty-gritty of the policy. but i think that people are taking the time to figure out who it is that they prefer. who it is they like. beto o'rourke just dropped out. we'll be wondering whether other people will drop out who have never polled above 1%. and it's good to sort of move away from what i call the 23 and me that were running. so many people running and -- >> oh, that looks like me. >> do what? >> some dna testing. >> okay, like -- i'll just run. there was a moment there where everybody just said, i'll just run for president because it's just the thing to do. >> and it's time to get serious. it's time for the field to narrow, and i hope that more americans start to pay attention to these candidates and figure out not just who represents them best in terms of who they think
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can do the job as president, but who can beat donald trump. i think it's important for people to -- i think it's important for us to recognize that that is what people are looking for in these candidates. >> to careen's point about, we got polls for everything, including state polls, i want to put up the iowa 2020 poll and show the first choice for democratic nominee. and look at that. elizabeth warren, 22%, bernie sanders 19%, mayor pete buttigieg, 18%, and vice president biden 17%. i mean, i know it's early. we've been down this road. every four years, the person at the top of that list, i don't know -- >> doesn't usually win. >> doesn't usually get the iowa caucus. >> look, i'll say this. i have worked on a few presidential campaigns. i've been to iowa. i've been to new hampshire. i lived in south carolina for a year back in 2007 for the 2008. and you know, these four early states take this incredibly seriously, right? and when you think about iowa
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caucus, you know, it's a very -- it runs very differently than a primary state. and they go into a caucus with like a number one, a number two, a number three because that's kind of the game of how you play this. and so they're going to go to all of these different events. they're going to look at, study and look at these candidates and they're going to kind of feel these folks out and come out going -- or go into the iowa caucus with like a top two or top three choice. clearly going for their first one, first choice going into the caucus. >> but what i think is important to also -- i don't know if this polling reflects this is that no one is going to get that democratic nomination if you don't get the black vote. so in terms of the top four that are polling, at least in the poll that you showed, you know, very few of the four have made headways with african-americans. joe biden, yes, obviously, he's polling highest. but warren is not. sanders is not. and buttigieg is not. and so it's important for the
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top four or five to recognize. and i think we all know this, that black people, black women in particular are the backbone of the democratic party. and if those top tier candidates are not working enough to appeal to black voters, to black women, they're not going to get the nomination. they may win iowa. they may win those other states that don't have a lot of african-americans but overall you'll not get the nominations if you cannot appeal to the concerns and the needs of african americans. >> and you can't win the nomination without the black vote and you can't win the general election without the black vote. it's hand in hand. >> all right. i'm gonna go there right now. speaking of african -- >> i have tea as well. >> shall i sip my tea? okay. i'm glad you brought up the importance of the black vote and particularly african-american women because we need to talk about the fact that the one african-american woman in the race, senator kamala harris, who had to my mind still the best
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campaign launch, why is she not among these top four in the iowa poll, among the top four in the nbc news/"wall street journal" poll? if she is so good, and she is that good -- >> yeah. >> -- why is she not polling well? >> i think there's a couple of reasons. 23 and me. there's been a lot of people in this race. and if you look at biden, you look at bernie, you said this in the beginning of this segment which was bernie ran in 2016. people know who he is. biden -- people know who he is. he was the vice president for the first black president, which matters, which means something to people. and so there's name i.d. that comes into this that's really real. and people are looking at who they know, who they're familiar with. and then when they look at biden, which is one of the reasons you see a lot of african-americans, older african-americans supporting joe biden is they want someone who can beat donald trump. that is the number one thing. and so -- and i'm not saying
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kamala harris cannot do that, but when you have the familiarity, the numbers are up high and he was there for the last eight years and been around for some time, that plays into the decision that we see here. >> uh-huh. >> i said what i said. >> like why isn't kamala doing better? you know, like my dating life, it's complicated. it's complicated. i think when you look at all of the other candidates, very few are fielding what she's fielding in terms of bots, in terms of people attacking her. she's been dealing with the kind of things you'd never thought she'd deal with like, is she black enough? she has a white husband. she's been getting a lot of hits on that. things that aren't particularly geared toward her policy. and then, of course, there's the complicated background she has as a former prosecutor. there are a lot of people feel that she perhaps locked up a lot of black people not focusing specifically on her entire
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career as a prosecutor because she did do some very good things. she was a progressive. >> national model type thing. >> she was a progressive prosecutor, but i think that she has to sort of do a better job of explaining to people -- >> and we have exactly one year to do a better job of explaining to people what is going on in the 2020 campaign. thank you both very much. karine will be back in our next hour. thank you midwin charles. more "a.m. joy" after the break. >> all right. everybody share this. beto o'rourke is on a skateboard. mini is a different kind of car. ♪ ladies and gentlemen for a different kind of drive. ♪ ladies and gentlemen for the drive to create a new kind of family car, that became a new kind of race car. for the drive to rebel, zag.
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now you can take control of your home wifi and get a notification the instant someone new joins your network... only with xfinity xfi. download the xfi app today. here we have a u.s. national security official who's advising ukraine while working inside the white house apparently against the president's interests and usually they spoken in english, is that kind of an interesting angle on the story? >> i find that astounding and some people may call it espionage. >> we know the soviet union immigrated with his family, young. >> fox news launched a smear
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campaign this week not against its competitors or house leadership or aoc or even president obama. someone most americans have not heard of. his name is alexander vitamndma. he's a ukraine expert in the national security council. he listened in on trump's phone call with the zelensky president. he became the first white house official who heard that call to testify in the impeachment inquiry, testifying for more than 10 hours, vindman told house investigators that the transcript released by the white house omitted words and phrases. he s
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he testified in his opening statement that "i did not think it is proper to demand investigation on a u.s. citizen." fox news's laura ingraham and others on fox questioned his loyalty because he was born in ukraine. vindman was born in ukraine which was then a soviet state, he and his family fled to the u.s. from religious -- he served the united states for decades. that does not make him disloyal. that makes him a patriot. trump tweeted an attack on vindman, calling him "never trumper." it was not fox personality that went after vindman. on tuesday, gop congressman and current cnn contributor, shawn duffy had this to say hours
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before vindman testified. >> it seems clear that he's incredibly concerned of ukrainian defense, his main mission was to make sure the ukraine got those reference. i understand it, we all have an affinity to our homeland where we came from. joining me now is author and media analyst eric bolder and kristen vausz and gabriel sherman and malcolm nance and jennifer rubin of "the washington post." this is so shameful and enraging to me that we have an entire network dedicated to not only broadcast the people who apparently live on earth, too but who are attacking a member of the military of veteran, a
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person who served this country with distinction and honor and has american's interests a lot heart. this is from people who has lectured the nations and democrats for decades about commitment to america, commit to american national security and this what they do. kristen, let me come to you to get your reaction to what we just heard here from people who supposedly are patriots and cares so much of this country but think nothing of smearing veterans anda veteran and a member of the military. >> it is so important to point out, foreign born service members have been existential and without selfless soldier, the lafayette or i mean heroes
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of the american revolution wo were born in other countries who through out our military history born abroad but come here and believe in our nation and values enough to put their lives on the line for it. to question the patriotism or loyalty of a service member who has been born abroad or who has maintained relations with family abroad, that's very troubling, very problematic and it really reflects an ignorance of history and those who make our military stronger, smarter and wiser and everything that we do. >> malcolm in your role in the military and intelligence, all the things you have done overseas, you have come into contact with people may not
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necessarily born overseas and come to the united states and became citizens, fight on behalf of the country. you work with people who are not american citizens but believe the idea of america to help america in its role as leader of the free world and the bulk work of democracy. how does this attack on vindman impact america's ability to maintain its role for democracy? >> it damages america's image again abroad. what you have is you have a dedicated member of the armed forces who's an american citizen. just because he was born in another country and came here at age three, there is no way to question his patriotism. i was born here, i did jobs that were similar to this where i had to act as an interpreter of u.s. policies and speak in a foreign language to people who did not understand what we were doing
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and wanting to assist us. that was his job. he just did his in the white house. for them to say well because his opinion or what he's saying opposes the president of the united states that they essentially are calling him a traitor and a spy? that's disgusting and disgraceful. there is a thing called the fighting man, it starts with i am a soldier of the united states armed forces. i served in the force which protects my nation and i defend the constitution of the united states. apparently that goes out the window when you are at fox news. patriotism to them is patriotism and loyalty to donald trump. we are not a dictator. the entirety of our constitution were so that we as as body would defend the constitution and the seat of the presidency, fnot th
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person that's sitting in it. apparently they completely forgotten about it. >> i am bringing the media analyst who is sitting here at the table. gabriel, you wrote about this, where does this come from? why are they doing this? this shows how boxed into the conner fox news is and how deep into the cult of donald trump they are. fox news' viewer ship has been popular with veterans and members of the military. the fact they launched this horrible attack on veterans, they made the calculated choice that backing donald trump and smearing this man, his officer was better for their brand than actually reporting the truth. i want to say one other thing of the comment you played on cnn. that crossed such a line of
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being jewish and one of the oldest of anti-semitism. questioning of what shawn said on cnn. him questioning the loyalty of someone just because they were born in another country is raci racism. you are drawing a broad stroke about somebody based on their heritage and that's wrong. i think that's no bound in our political debate. >> eric. >> it is interesting, fox is playing kind of wacamole. >> these are a kaleidoscope of people coming forward who all told the exact story, there was bribery and quid pro quo. takeing him down is not going t matter. the whistleblower, himself/sh h
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himself/herself is not going to matter in the end. it is going to be a collective. if i can discredit john dean, watergate will go away. no, there were tapes and transcripts and burglars that were paid off. for fox news this is a feel-good short term strategy. they love smearing people and love going on the attack but in the end it is not going to work because there are so many people telling the same story. >> jennifer, you know these folks, you will be the first one to tell me if i was wrong in my interpretations of what republicans used to stand for and what conservatives used to stand for when it come to the military and the sanctity of military. why on earth is the republican party allowing this to happen to a sitting member of the military
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to a white house official to a veteran? i am old enough to remember when saying half a phrase of what we have shown in those clips, we get someone would run out of town. >> it was so outrageous that liz cheney repu cheney reputeuated. >> she came forward. it was so stupid that even cheney did not want to go down that road. that shows occasionally fox gets out over its skis. they think they are brilliant because they are non-stop mission in life was to protect trump. they don't always think things true. this is a case where they made it worse. they only called attention to this patriots. man shows up in this reform, they could not do something stupider. part of this is a win it all
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cause and lack of disjudgment. no one says that's adam idea, you don't want to be attacking someone in the military. they're crazy around them. they pump themselves up and come up with these ideas and when they hit reality, they get whacked in the mouth about it and suddenly they have to scramble for cover. interesting. i wrote a piece exploring john yu, he was on that show spent the rest of the day pretending he didn't say what he said. these people have self control and little shame and they occasionally over steps badly that liz cheney has to tell them to sit down and shut up. >> vindman patriotism, he's respecting the branch of our constitution by honoring the congress's impeachment inquiry going before the house and
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speaking the truth. the rest of the executive branch is ignoring that. they are the ones being if you want to question people's patriotism, ignoring or system of checks and balances. this whole smear campaign was so over blown and wrong as so many levels. >> go ahead. >> their teams of intelligence analysts and lawyers and investigators who are thoroughly vetted. there are people who work every single day in the background to make sure everybody executing our national policy is doing so responsibly and executing the will of our constitutional system. >> i am glad you brought that up
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kristen. brad moss sent out a tweet on vindman's creditability. he's all about transparency and listening to our advocate. lieutenant vindman was vetted more than once on these issues and having required the highest clearance eligibility and necessitating not only the standard background checks but more than likely a full scope polygraph, the one where they grill you on your entire life, vindman passed this vetting. >> to call him into questioning of the entire system protecting us. >> malcolm. >> you know i would like to make one point about colonel vindman. i would like to address all of our intelligence officers who are sitting around watching the media, we have an obligation to protect the constitution, that requires us to tell the truth when we see crimes or potential
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wrong doing. anyone who wears the uniform rose to the position of trust who have sworn an oath to the constitution must defend the constitution and no one else. >> there is a tradition here. john kerry spent the summer of 2004 being smeared. >> which was viewed on fox news. they pumped that for a month. they gone after john mccain obviously. it highlights the desperate situation fox news is in in terms of defending this impeachment. the mantra here is yes, there is collusion but maybe not so bad. that's a hard thing to argue 24/7 when trump had gone out and admitted doing all these things and just dropping on the lap of fox news and say you figure it out. they're stuck with short term smeared campaign, it is not going to matter in a week. there is going to be a treasure-trove of damming information against trump. >> jennifer, i hear you
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snickering in the background or trying to get in there. >> democrats have a golden opportunity. they can appeal to all of these x republicans, all of these funky republicans independence, their entire really base. pete buttigieg says take back the patriotism and national security issue. the reason why colonel vindman was so concerned of ukraine getting weapons because that was u.s. policy, we want them to defend themselves against russia. an episode like this shows how really superficial and phony the flag wavers on the republican side. for democrats, they should ram this home again and again. this is not patriotism.
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this is not respect for the national interest. this is turning the government into a mob and turning it into something that services one individual does not service america or the constitution. so, i would hope that all of the democrats realize that they have a golden opportunity and really seize on this. >> gabriel, there is a reason why i have been harpening on fox news. not that it is a compare but there is no denying the fact that fox news far and away is the biggest and has the biggest audience in cable television which only to me highlights the danger that they pose. if they are attacking a member of the military and big chunks of the country is hearing that. they have been fed. >> you have written about this. >> of course. >> they have been feeding a daily diet, hourly diet of rage
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and racism to a giant chunk of the country. explain to the audience why fox news piece of this is so important. >> i think just stepping back to historical content. roger ailes founded fox news in 1996, a former campaign adviser, he helped nixon get elected in '68. fox news was created because republicans never wanted watergate to happen again. they felt the media had railr d railroaded nixon out of office. fox news was going to be the firewall that stood between republicans and impeachment. that's what fox news is doing. they're getting desperate to be that firewall. that's what fox news does and donald trump knows that. that's why you see donald trump support among the republican base, the majority of the base gets their news from fox news to remain 75% or 90% at a time
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where anyone who reads the newspapers or gets their information from other sources have a different view of this president. >> i want to give kristen the last word here. i want to play something that senator mit romney of utah had to say about all this. >> this is absurd and disgusting and way off the mark. this is a decorated american soldier and he should be given the respect that his service to our country demands. >> yeah, like how they ar are -- kristen, as a veteran, how does it make you feel, one, to hear senator romney say that but two, to know that senator romney is the only republicans out there criticizing the
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attacks on colonel vindman. >> my service spans four different presidents, many of us served under more. it is problematic because it is not only america who you are watching on cable news but our military is watching. to so dissent in the rank and different kinds of people, it is troubling for our military who maintains its non partisan service to our nation to protect the constitution and the system that it builds and the continuity of our nation overtime. so it is very troubling to see any partisan usage of military in particular. we need to maintain the
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non-partisan service aspect of our military. >> kristen, thank you very much for saying that. i can't believe how just emotional i have gotten during the segment because this is more than attacking a number of the military. this is attacking the foundation of what makes this country great but also what makes this country a beacon of hope around the world. thank you gabriel and eric bohler and christikristen. coming up, your moment of maxine, that's next. maxine, tha. ♪ limu emu & doug and now for their service to the community, we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work.
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make no mistake, they're coming after the republican party and me because i am fighting for you, they don't like it. >> as the house moves one step closer to impeachment, donald trump returns to a familiar tactic, blaming democrats for all the trouble. impeachment inquiry showing no signs of slowing down with multiple schedules throughout the week. joining you now for your moment of maxine is congresswoman
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maxine waters, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. can you hear me? >> okay, i don't think congresswoman waters can hear me. we'll take another break and we'll be back right after this. h s
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joining us now is congresswoman maxine waters. congresswoman, thank you very much for being on the show. >> i am delighted for being here with you. thank you for having me on. >> let me get your reaction that came out yesterday as a result of that lawsuit of manafort pushed conspiracy theory blaming ukraine for election hacking as far back as 2016. >> they're trying to correct their lie. they lie all the time. they have been caught trying to use process as a excuse with the inquiry that's going on.
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now manafort is coming up with another lie. and so i expect that as they attempt to do everything that they can to defend the president and the fact that the president has been caught right-handed talking to the president of ukraine, mr. zelensky and asking him to do him a favor because he's trying to get dirt on biden. we know it is true. even mulvaney says it is true and now they're trying to s sasay say -- oh, well, ukraine has been involved and trying to take it away from putin and the russians, well, yes the president said what has been reported and however that does not mean that it is incorrect that you could not do it or illegal. this president could say whatever he wants to say and it does not mean that he's
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condemned in any way that would cause him to be impeached. >> right. >> it is another lie, they keep lying. >> let me get your reaction to something else. kellyanne conway in the white house, he's been she's been on g show, take a listen to what she had to say. >> would you say no quid pro quo for many military. >> no quid pro quo in terms of the president. >> in terms of what actually happened beyond the call. >> there are eight of them. >> beyond the call just in general. as a matter of policy. >> i am asking you. >> president trump never said to the zelensky, do this and you will get your aide. >> so it did not happen. >> nobody would thought we release the transcripts. you can all see it. go read it. >> just to be clear that's not a transcript. those are notes of the phone call that happens on july 25th between president trump and s
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zelensky, what do you make of her attempt to say there is no quid pro quo but when you read the notes of the call, it is kind of clear. >> they better get their act together. now they're saying in the new strategy that yes he said what he said and even if if there is a quid pro quo, it is not illegal. now, she's saying it is not a quid pro quo. and so i think in an attempt to come up with a strategy because we are getting ready to have these public hearings where we are going to have witnesses who are going to come that's really going to tell the truth about this president. they are mixed up now. they're saying one thing there was and some are saying there was not. let's see how the lies are going to turn up when the public testimony starts and we are saying the president can come over and he can have an opportunity to tell his story,
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let's see what they're going to do. >> i am glad you brought it up. let's put it up on the screen what the house impeachment resolution makes clear. sets up path for entrepreneimpe hearings. allows questioning by the house committee. allows republicans to call witnesses if approved boo i the committee vote. i am just wondering, one, do you think that that you and your colleagues have given too much to republicans to sort of appease the criticism that all of this is being done behind closed doors. >> well, you know democrats saw it extraordinary bad. we don't play it the same way the republicans do. the republicans will lie and change the story in the middle of a discussion and so we don't do it like that.
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we make sure we are fair and give the opportunity to defend themselves and to question our witnesses to do what is absolutely open and transparent and so we are doing what we believe is the right thing to do and again we don't act the way republicans do. >> chairmwoman waters, real qu k quick, have republicans painted themselves into a corner? >> i think they have. as a matter of feedback, thact, the use process and tried to say we are not being fair. they said we were doing something in secrets and they organized this gang of republicans and they stormed into the room where the intelligence committee and the other committees were holding these hearings behind closed door. the republicans were in the room. they had the opportunity to
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raise the questions to have the comment and so they have been caught and we have shown that we are not hiding anything. we are very transparent and we are setting forth a procedure of how the inquiry will continue and so i think we are on the right track. >> congresswoman, i have to be transparent that we are out of time. >> chairwoman maxine waters. >> you are so welcome. >> coming up. >> coming up zero heartburn. because life starts when heartburn stops. take the challenge at prilosecotc dot com.
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it is okay for the president of the united states to ask -- >> it is not impeachable. >> they'll comfortable saying that he never mentioned 2020. holding up aide, joe biden and his political rival with the president saying, people are talking about joe biden and his son. you are darn right they were. >> with her trademark defiance counselor to the president, kellyanne conway made the rounds repeating familiar talking points in defending her boss. i can't right now. back with me jean-pierre and ej dionne. we just been talking about her a lot. let's talk about somebody else that's been on the sunday's
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show, steve bannon. take a listen. the president did nothing wrong, this is about a policy debate. the central part of america's first and this is why the apparatus is so against it. the president is saying we are no longer going to have a protection. nato is our ally. the eu started this by forcing membership to ukraine and eu and talking that nato membership, where is the eu money? >> ej, why is this right nationalist on television out there, on television to begin with and defending this white house? >> there be may be a limited number of people in the republican party who are going out and defend the president. >> good point. >> i think bannon sees the potential of this whole collapse
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and hope for this nationalist move m sweepiment sweeping the . it sets somerset backs. they can't stick to a consistent set of argument and going back to kellyanne conway. first it was process and that was not working. they seem to be saying as long as president trump did not say the word quid pro quo five times in the phone call then there is nothing wrong with it. that's not a good argument. >> squjennifer, what do you makf steve bannon coming from where ever he's been to defend the white house? is it as ej says they can't find any republicans coming out there to defend the president of what's happening. >> two problems, they can't find anyone to defend him or there is no defense. they put these people on air to
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have a world salad and kind of all over the air and that's oppose to take the role of defense of the president. i think it is a measure of really how bending over backward the media has been to allow kellyanne conway on television. she's a repeated offender, she lies and lies. the fact she's on television, i think really creates a journalistic ethical problem. but, i also think it is so very telling that they simply don't know what to say. so change the statement, they'll just blabber on and switch back and forth with a single sentence of what their position is. i think at some point, there are maybe people in the senate who says you know, i don't feel so great as the united states senator or having to repeat
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this, give me something intelligib intelligib intelligible. they have not been able to. what are they going to say? karine? they have mr. white nationalist on tv viewing garbage essentially. they can't spin this thing. can the president use the power of the presidency, the power of the white house to ask a foreign government for help to get dirt on his political rival and holdup aide. when we see senators and congressional members being asked that question in the hallway of congress. they run away. >> they can't answer question. it is the most embarrassing thing. to ej's point or jennifer's point, they can't find on anyone to go on a sunday's show to defend what the president did. it is illegal and criminal.
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he's behaving like he is above the law. the president of the united states, the commander in chief and that's what's happening. so what you have like i said, you have mr. white nationalist and mr. alternatives out there spewing nonsense. >> there is some other sunday's sound, not related to the president and impeachment. the democratic side of the race, really interesting and it involves mayor pete and congressman jim cliver, the influential congressman was asked or talked about older african-american voters and mayor pete sexuality. take a listen. >> is mayor buttigieg's struggles with voters in your state of south carolina because he's gay. >> that's a generational issue. i know a lot of people my age
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feel that way. i will say this, dana. my only grandson who's 25 years old, that guy is a pete buttigieg and he believes in the guy, not because he's gay. >> are you saying for older african-americans, it is an issue? >> yes, it is. >> there is no question about that. i am not going to sit here and tell you otherwise because i think everybody knows it is an issue. >> i am going to get my thoughts on this that goes around and started with karine. yes, there is no denying and mayor pete's sexuality will be an issue for a lot of people, maybe potentially more so with african-americans. you got to find out if that's indeed true. i talk to my own family in august. just asking who everyone supported and overwhelmingly joe
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biden got the support. these are mostly older african-americans. what i found interesting is voluntarily folks brought up mayor pete's name. one person brought up his name because she liked the fact when asked about the police involved shooting in south bend and what was going on with the police department, he owned up to his own failings in that regards. she liked that honesty. another relative, older african-american relative kept on saying she liked the fact that he was straightforward. she said it so many times. he's honest of who he is which means no one can hold it against him and use it to destroy him. that honesty was something they found impressive. karine, i want to get your view on this. that's the problem with mayor pete in getting
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african-americans support is older african-americans taking issues with his sexuality. for some folks it may come up and may be an issue. i hope not. when i was talking to folks as well. i live in north carolina and south carolina working on presidential campaigns in the past, i go in and i call folks. a lot of it and early on, not that many months ago, they did not know much about mayor pete, right? a lot of it and we talked about this earlier in the show, a lot of it was just a name id, getting to know who he was. once you get passed that and you have the conversation and you kind of lay out who mayor pete is, they like the military background. they like the fact that he presents well. he seems like he could really talk about policy issues in a real way. i think it is so funny, the things that i did hear was not about his sexuality but his age.
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is he old enough and does he have enough experience. >> right. >> he's going to have to figure out how to connect with the black community. i mean that's something that he and his campaign, i know they have a plan that's a very, very impressive and dealing with black issues which kudos to their campaign. he has to go out there and talk to the community, go to south carolina and have those real conversations and deal with it head on. >> i hope his sexuality should not be a problem. >> ej, real quickly, you have been studying the democratic k electorate for years now, what do you make of this? >> the congressman was being candid in the focus group in which we have seen leonhis sexuy is an issue. elizabeth warren has run the
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best campaign so far but pete is right behind. his biggest barrier he got to breakthrough is with the african-american community. for older african-americans, there is his sexuality. on the other side also contributes to his scent of being authentic and he's straight up about it and a lot of people liked it. there are some of that police issues which i am with karine, i appreciate his humility about it. if pete is going to take off, he needs a breakthrough african-american voters at some point because even if you were to win iowa which at least a possibility now, he's going to have to show something down in south carolina and so he does need to breakthrough that. >> i wonder how much, he's also the candidate in the race who openly talks about his spir
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spirituality and knowing scripture is very important. we'll have to leave it there. >> amen. >> it is a sunday. we'll be right back. coming up, it is that time, time for who won the week. me, time fo r who won the weeksses with sa try clean freak! it has three times the cleaning power of the leading spray to dissolve kitchen grease on contact. and it's great for bathrooms! just keep pumping the power nozzle to release a continuous burst of mist and make quick work of big jobs. it even works on stainless steel. it cuts through 100% of dirt, grease and grime. available with easy-to-swap refills. to get three times the cleaning power, try clean freak from mr. clean. most people think of verizon as a reliable phone company. (woman) but to businesses, we're a reliable partner. we keep companies ready for what's next. (man) we weave security into their business. virtualize their operations.
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without any further adieu, let's find out who won the week. back with me -- karine jean-pierre and jennifer rubin and e.j. dionne. who won the week? >> adam schiff. he's steady and meticulous. we can expect to hear the transcripts they have been accumulating from witnesses that come before them. the calm, demeanor, he's probably the perfect person to conduct this. >> jennifer, real quickly, once this impeachment inquiry gets fully up and running, it moves
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from adam schiff over to chairman nadler. is chairman nadler the same steady as adam schiff? >> well, he's going to be a circum-scribe role. i think it is going to be his job to draft and vote on the articles of impeachment. i think less drama there is a good thing. i think they'll have a task to complete which hopefully won't take a huge amount of time. so i think the division of labor that nancy pelosi has set up is pretty smart. >> e.j., who won the week? >> if i picked a political one, adam schiff is the right answer. the washington nationals who won the week. their singing has been electric. this is a victory. i am an old boston fan. i know what it is like for a city to feel the championships.
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just this year, you have the gna nats and the mystics winning their first championship, this is the first baseball championship homestead grays won the world series. you had a tribute out of all of this. the trump people should nt feel so bad, because politicians are often booed and there we go. the beautiful thing about it is that it is not political, and our colleague dave von drase had a piece about how to be
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delightful and so it has been and yes, go nats and mystics, too. >> that is really terrific, e.j., as someone who lives in washington and out of the country when all of this went down, and that is terrific, but it is sports which is also not my forte. kidding. coreen? >> well, i am going to make it political, shawn doolittle from the nationals who is the pitcher and he is not only a world series champion, because social justice champion, because he decided to turn down the invite to go to white house which is tomorrow, and he said that he couldn't do it, and he is an ally and has been an ally to the lgbt community and to the disability community and tim grant community and from the divisive from this administration and donald trump, himself, he said that he could gh not go to white house, and that is my pick. >> i had not even heard of sean
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doolittle, and what position does he play? >> he is a pitcher. >> he has a great sense. he is fun to watch when he is on the mound. i agree. and somebody asked him, well, shouldn't you respect the president or something like that, and he said i want a president who respects the presidency. >> that is right. >> no, he is a terrific and outspoken guy. >> and if anything, the trump presidency has sort of made people understand the importance of the role of the office, and the person who sits behind the resolute desk in terms of not being just president of the united states, but also representing us as a nation. all of us in ways that are commendable. as wonderful as all of these picks are. >> oh, no. >> and they are truly wonderful, i have to say that you are all wrong. my pick is neither political nor sports-related.
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it is sheer fun. wait, should i say who it is or just play it? >> say it. >> okay. i will say who it is. it is the cbs affiliate based in norfolk, virginia, wtar gives the news for hampton, norfolk news and take a look at this genius. >> i told you if the sprinkler systems come on for the day, i am out of here. sitting up here with a mop. >> you don't want a sprinkler system and a beautiful weave, because that is -- >> oh! >> you are beautiful. you said it is a weave, didn't you? >> it is not. oh, no. >> oh, no! >> i love that. blaine stewart and the co-host jessica lar, and what i love about this, and i think that blaine stewart and they both win the week, because blaine stewart wins the week, because he knew that the moment she said, that her hair wasn't a weave but real, he had the presence of
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mind to get up and leave. just get up and leave. >> get off of the set. >> of all of the things that we have been talking about in these past few months over the weekend as great as the nationals winning the world series and seeing that clip was just, and it was tonic for my soul to see these two anchors and to keep in mind that you came into the middle of that, and they were talking about that jack lantern on the set, and there was a tea candle in it, and they were afraid that the papers were going to catch fire and the sprinklers were going to come on. >> i feel bad for jessica, it was not a weave, that is wrong. you don't do that to black women. >> you had seen it? >> e.j.?
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>> my favorite nonsports non-political was the video of that little kid who went trick-orff h treating and he saw that the bowl of candy was empty and he took his to fill it up for the next kid. and the moments of grace and kindness that i think that we need to hang on into in these troubled kinds. >> and e.j., real quick? >> i was going to say, i am sticking with the nats and grays and the mystics and sean doolittle. >> that is smart. >> that is mine, e.j., but blaine stewart and jessica lar, thank you very, very much moment of levity. and i want to thank all of you for being on the show. more "a.m. joy" after the break. hmm. exactly.
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and that is our show for today. thank you for watching. "a.m. joy" is back next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern and up next, alex witt has the latest. >> thank you. and as always good to see you, my friend. and for all of you here from the world headquarters in new york, we are just about noon here in the east and 9:00 a.m. in the west. impeachment talk is heating up on the talk shows and public hearings and tran scripts and who is next to talk. >> there is rising support within republican voters in
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favor of moving forward. >> also, it is one year to go from election day. yes, you heard that right, one year. and new problems for the top candidates and plus congresswoman tulsi gabbard on her 2020 vision. we start with breaking news as this is day 41 of the impeachment inquiry, and we are learning lots of new information about the house's process and we have an idea of when closed door depositions will end, when public hearings will likely begin and when transcripts of those depositions will be released. >> this week, we are releasing the transcripts of all of the depositions, and everything else is going to be public. the public hearings will be very, very soon. this week, we are having a last of the witnesses come in, and then it'll be released, the transcripts will be released. >> when are the public hearings going to start? >> my best guess, chris, you will start to see the public hearings in the next two the


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