tv Morning Joe MSNBC May 14, 2020 3:00am-6:00am PDT
in economic activity and employment, and already the job gains of the last decade have been erased. since the pandemic arrived in force just two months ago, more than 20 million people lost their jobs. almost 40% of those in households making less than $40,000 a year lost a job in march. additional fiscal support could be costly but worth it, if it helps avoid long-term damage and leaves us with a stronger recovery. >> federal reserve chairman jerome powell with that warning about the economy yesterday. we'll get another look at just how bad things might be when the weekly jobless claim nurp numbe released 8:30 eastern. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, may 14th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have white house reporter for the "associated press," jonathan lemire. we'll get his reporting on the president's trip today to pennsylvania.
trump's second trip in as much of a week to an electoral battleground state. also, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "ka e "kasie d.c." sunday nights, kasie hunt. she'll update us on congress' progress over another aid bill. also, jeffrey goldberg is here with his analysis and new piece for "the atlantic," that the conspiracy theorists are winning. that's frightening. first, president trump yesterday criticized dr. anthony fauci's remarks that he made to a senate committee. that reopening the economy too soon would cost lives and set back the economic recovery. here's what dr. fauci said on tuesday, followed by the president yesterday. >> there is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may not be able to control, which, in fact, paradoxically,
will set you back. not only leading to some suffering and death that could be avoided, but could even set you back on the road to trying to get economic recovery. it would almost turn the clock back rather than going forward. >> dr. fauci yesterday was a little cautious on reopening the economy too soon. do you share his concerns? >> about reopening what? >> reopening the economy too soon in some states. >> look, he wants to play all sides of the equation. i think we're going to have a tremendous fourth quarter. i think we'll have a transitional third quarter. i think we'll have a phenomenal next year. we'll have a country that's going to absolutely have one of its best years. next year, with all the stimulus and all of the fact that it is a pent up demand like i haven't seen. >> when you say dr. fauci is playing both sides, are you suggesting the -- >> i was surprised by his answer, actually. you know, it's just -- to me, it
is not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools. the only thing that would be acceptable, as i said, is professors, teachers, et cetera, over a certain age. they ought to take it easy for another four weeks, five weeks, who knows? whatever it may be. >> when it comes to schools, dr. fauci said different regions would take different approaches. as far as making students and parents feel safe about returning to school, dr. fauci said the likelihood of having treatment or a vaccine in time for the fall is, quote, a bridge too far. i think one of the issues here, joe, is that people understand fauci, especially when he breaks down the science of this. it's pretty basic. >> what's funny is donald trump nmz s sitting there with his arms crossed, all defensive and upset. donald trump -- it is. donald trump's attacks of other people -- as john heilemann accurately has said -- shows
he's either confessing or projecting. >> right. >> here's a man who has been bouncing back and forth from saying that there's nothing to worry about, this is all going to go away, it's just one person coming in from china. it is only 11 people coming in. it is only 15 people. it'll be down to zero. it is all going away in april. he's been saying this for months. >> people are scared. >> one day, he'll go, "you know, 2 million people could die, so we're going to shut down." he bounces back and forth, back and forth, and back and forth. there's no consistency, which is why donald trump only has 36% of americans who believe anything he says about this pandemic. by the way, those 36% of americans, i ask friends and loved ones to keep household appliances like blenders out of their reach. we don't want them to lose my fingers, any hands.
keep blenders and other sharp devices away from them. basic household tools. these people could probably put out an eye with a screwdriver. so if they believe anything donald trump is saying about this pandemic, please, please, don't let them play with blenders. the second thing is, willie, is that dr. fauci is actually following white house advice. he is following donald trump's white house guidelines, and he's staying consistent with donald trump's white house guidelines. so far from playing both sides. one of the stupidest things donald trump said, at least in the last day. far from playing both sides, he's only playing one side. we're going to follow science. we're going to follow medicine. we're not going to be freaking out like donald trump if a new poll comes out that shows him getting destroyed by joe biden.
dr. fauci is following medical and science advice that will keep americans safe. donald trump, on the other hand, is darting back and forth, a free-range politician who has lost his mind because he's losing poll after poll after poll. to sit there and say fauci is playing both sides is just, again, about as stupid of an analysis as donald trump could give. that, my friend, is saying a lot. >> you know, governors, mayors, school superintendents, the american people will have to decide who they believe. do you believe dr. anthony fauci, a life in infectious disease study, or the hunches of president trump? because the alternative, donald trump said to dr. fauci's, quote, unacceptable answer, is his hunches. he said, "well, if you're older, call it four, five weeks, who knows," he said.
schools, we have to send kids back to school. yes, there are rare diseases that take place in a few kids, but you also could get hurt walking to school. you could get hurt in a car accident going to school. donald trump is speaking with the authority of someone who has actually studied this when, in truth, he's going on his hunches and his wishes, joe, that this, again, will go away. and come september, kids will all be back in school. boy, do we hope that's true. i know everyone on the panel and everyone watching the show hope their kids go back to school, but they want them to do it safely. what dr. fauci said the other day is, we have to be humble enough to say we don't know exactly where this disease is headed next. no, he wasn't going to make grand pronouncements about sending all our kids back to school. >> right. donald trump's hunches that he talks about, his hunch was it was only one person coming in from china and it was going to go away. >> right. >> we're going to be fine. february 22nd. february 26th, his hunch was, it is only 11 people coming in.
it is going to go away. his hunch talking to african-american leaders in the white house in february, "hey, this is going away in april when things get warm. it'll go away in april. it'll go away magically." that was his hunch. then you get to march, what are his hunches? he starts having hunches. april, starts having hunches. his hunches are about hydroxychloroquine. says it repeatedly, "i'm not a doctor. what do i know? it's just my hunch. i have a good you know what," he said. >> what? >> then the government, his government, has to warn, "don't just take this stuff. bad for your heart." >> right. >> then he, as a hunch, says, "dr. birx, check this out. i have a hunch. i'm a pretty smart guy. i have a good you know what. how about injecting disinfectants into bodies to clean out the lungs. this takes on the lungs, so it could take on the lungs." he has that hunch, too. not a doctor, he says, but he
has a hunch. he has a hunch it won't come back in the fall and winter. that hunch, very bad. what a dangerous, dangerous hunch to have, when science suggests just the other way. we hope it doesn't come back. we hope it goes away magically. we hope leprechauns and fairies float across the land, donald trump fairies float across the land with magic pixie dust, making everybody healthy. hopefully helping our backswings and adding muscle tone to those who desire it. maybe, maybe he has a hunch that people with bad hair styles, maybe male pattern baldness will be removed. no. there's no scientific attachment to these hunches. what's the impact of it? the impact of it is that the 36%
that actually still believe him -- >> are in danger. >> -- they're endangering themselves, endangering loved ones. conservatives are going, "what are you guys doing? it is not conservative to not wear a mask. it is not conservative to not socially distance. it's not conservative to go to restaurant and clump together, wearing american flags, thinking you're making america great again by making americans sick, by making loved ones sick." it's crazy. willie, you talked about, you know, these governors or dr. fauci. who are people going to trust? they've already decided. they don't trust donald trump. 36% trust donald trump. 61% or 62% don't. you look at the governors, the michigan governor, governor whitmer, she's in the 70s. wisconsin governor's ratings are sky high. mike dewine in ohio, approval ratings are sky high. pennsylvania's democratic governor, approval ratings are sky high.
donald trump's are really bad right now, just like governor kemp's, who listened to donald trump. dr. fauci, by the way, overwhelming majority of americans believe him and not donald trump and stooged in the media who blindly follow donald trump and are against dr. fauci. this is a tko. americans believe dr. fauci and don't believe donald trump. look at the numbers. >> dr. fauci has tried to stay out of a public fight with donald trump because he wants to be focused on what's happening in terms of public health. i guess it was a matter of time though until his science crossed the hunches of donald trump, and the president lashed out at dr. fauci yesterday. you mention wisconsin. the wisconsin supreme court struck out the governor's stay at home orders yesterday, marking the first time a state order had been knocked down by a
court of last report. the 4-3 ruling immediately lif s s all restrictions on businesses and gatherings imposed by the administration's order. schools, however, will remain closed until the fall. that decision comes after the governor had begun lifting some restrictions because the spread of the virus has slowed across the state. to put any limits in place, the legislature will have to deal with the unpredictable of this outbreak by working together. the administration is set to submit a new plan today, though republicans have yet to offer one of their own. last month, the wisconsin state supreme court overturned the governor's order to postpone the state's primary election, citing the public risk to coronavirus. at least three dozen wisconsin voters and poll workers tested positive for covid-19 after the in-person election back on april 7th. jonathan lemire, so we can take the wisconsin story as part of the larger theme, which is, you
have republicans, the president of the united states, supreme court now in the state of wisconsin, helping to nudge america back open for business again. you have doctors, like dr. anthony fauci, testifying before the senate about the dangers of doing just that. >> that's the real tension right now, willie, we're seeing within the white house and the broader administration. what happened with the president's comments yesterday, sort of boiled to the surface private frustrations he and his inner circle have had now for some weeks, according to our reporting, about dr. fauci. the president has long opinibee leery of the immediate media atd headlines fauci has garnered. one of the fastest ways to get on the wrong side of the president is to get more media attention than that. ask steve bannon about that. even jared kushner at times. this case, it is dr. fauci. more than that, they feel, fairly or not, dr. fauci sometimes moderates his answers
depending on the venue. he is sometimes a little more sticks to what the president wants to say when he's giving an interview with conservative media, and then less so with other networks. now, i think dr. fauci's defenders, and there are many, is saying he's not playing politics. he is sticking to the guidelines. that's what we heard in his senate testimony the other day. that clearly ra lly affected th president. you could see it yesterday. he was angry the night before or after fauci's testimony, suggesting it was undercutting his arguments, some of his push to get americans back to work. he is trying to lead by example today. he is going to pennsylvania, a key battleground state. he'll be touring a mask factory there, paying tribute to the workers there. it is his second trip after one to arizona last week. you know, sort of saying, "look, the white house is getting back to normal. so should owyou." though, we, of course, have covid infections in the west
wing itself. >> jeffrey goldberg, we sit and listen to the president attacking fauci. a couple of his stooges in the media blindly attack fauci. you wonder where 36% of americans get their information to support donald trump. a lot of it in this pandemic, i mean, even more, 45% approve of his job as president. he sa how could they do that when he's been so wrong about the worst crisis since world war ii? a crisis that's killed over 80,000 people, that he never saw coming, that he told us not to worry about, that he was ill-prepared for. >> said it was a hoax. >> said the media was whipping it up as a hoax to get him. and then you get friends sending you, like i have, conspiracy theories about tony fauci, saying that he spread aids. actually, more people died of aids because of his work on aids. he's lined up to make tens of
millions of dollars because he has stock in pharmaceutical companies. that he is just whipping up this pandemic and scaring people to make money. guess what? educated friends of mine, they believe this. they ask me to fact check this. you don't even know where to start. these conspiracy theories, that donald trump and donald trump supporters are spewing, people believe them. it is twisting and disporting i debate during this pandemic, especially about tony fauci. >> not only tony fauci, but bill gates, about anyone who is trying to bring science. even science that has -- and especially science that has big implications for our politics or
economy. that's the problem for donald trump related to fauci is. fauci is saying, "look, if you open up now, you'll wind up closing later." donald trump opportunity want to hear that, and never has wanted to hear that, obviously. the thing about conspiracy theories, they're seductive, right? people who need coherence in their lives, people who don't -- can't hand it will complexity of modern life, they find the edges and the discord and the contradictions too much to bear, they seek out conspiracy theories because they explain everything. you know, they also seek them out because it externalizes the problem. in other words, i'm having a bad life, not because i did something wrong, but because large forces, anonymous forces, wealthy forces outside of me are messing with me and messing with my tribe. remember, another piece of this
is tribal. donald trump is the chief of a tribe. anyone who subverts or undermines with facts or data the tribal chief, that person has to be dealt with. so we're in a -- a lot of weaknesses of human cognition, of human inability to process information are coming into play all at once. what we never had before -- i'll end here -- what we've never had before is a president who abets that kind of thinking. we have had, to date, in the modern era, presidents who say, "actually, this is what's going on, and i am going to turn the podium over to the experts from the cdc, fda, fema, defense department, whatever, to explain why the world is ocomplicated." we don't have that anymore. >> yeah, it shouldn't have to be news when a republican stands up for facts and science and scientists.
liz cheney did tweet support for dr. fauci. dr. fauci is one of the finest public servants we have ever had. he is not a partisan. his only interest is saving lives. we need his expertise and his judgment to defeat the virus. all americans should be thanking him. every day. and we do. >> good for her. >> good for her. his only interest is saving lives, and that's the part where our analysis may turn into critique here. when we see the president going on and on and on, trying to debunk fauci, veer off in five different directions, it seems to me, at the very least, that he's not focused on the one thing that could move us forward more quickly, which is testing. you know, overall support for a vaccine. it seems like there's all these entities. what's left in the white house and the pandemic office. working on multiple levels, some of them not necessarily productive. nothing is going to get people back to work safely unless we
can test. that's where congress might step in. kasie hunt, i know they're working on a number of levels, speaking of republicans and democrats, to try and get mass testing out there, as well, and also to try to figure out how to help people through this economic crisis. what's the latest? >> reporter: there's still a lot of questions, mika, about what happens next. i think what you heard from the fed chair, jerome powell, at the top of the show underscores an urgency to have them do something else big that a lot of senate republicans don't seem to be feeling right now. they're pretty split on whether this is something they need to rush out the door. i think the message from people who are looking at the underlying fundamentals of the economy are trying to send them very urgently is, "no, actually, your job is not done yet. we still need more out the door, otherwise, this could potentially be way worse from an economic perspective than it needs to be." you're right, congress is also working on testing, but that has
turned into something of a partisan football. in some ways, i think it is stunning to people, but that's been one of the things that, in the final rounds of previous negotiations, has been a sticking point for people. just to go back to the fauci point that you just showed, that tweet from liz cheney, don't forget, liz cheney, obviously, her family served in government for a long, long time. dr. fauci has served five presidents. three republicans, two democrats. you don't build trust like that with people in different parties if you are not what liz chi knee und cheney underscored there, which is he is not a partisan actor here. her father faced health challenges when he was vice president of the united states. somebody that, you know, they built personal relationships with him. there are others across the government who feel the same way about dr. fauci, that he has been responsive to them from either a political or in the course of their job, but also in
a private way. also, don't forget, liz cheney has gone back and forth with rand paul, and paul has been one of the most outspoken about raising doubts about dr. fauci. i think those are all important things to keep in mind. >> kasie, i don't remember -- >> the guy who spread coronavirus on capitol hill? >> i don't remember. was rand paul the guy who got tested for the coronavirus and was carrying it -- >> all over capitol hill. >> -- and then went to the gym on capitol hill, though it was closed. swimming pool, though it was closed. >> lunches. >> meetings. went to -- is he the -- was rand paul, is that the same rand paul that endangered the lives of every one of his senate colleagues? i can't remember. it's been a while. >> i think it was. >> there's only one rand paul, joe. yeah, i do believe you have the facts straight on what happened there. >> good. >> colleagues were not happy with him. now, he is also the rand paul who, i would point out, is not wearing a mask on capitol hill.
he's told reporters and others that because he's had the virus, he is immune, so he doesn't need to wear a mask. >> right. fantastic. >> that's what the science says, doctor. >> again, liz cheney though, showing it is not that hard to stand up for the truth or to stand up for someone when it is the right thing to do. it's just not that hard to stand up to trump in the face of basic science that is endangering the lives of the american people. people are really scared. they don't want to get this virus. those who know someone who did know it is a living hell if you can survive it. like, this is basic. the president is not going to win the battle against the virus. it's going to undermine him, and it is going to expose him every day. the question for republicans is, do they want to join the president on that perilous, nevere never-ending, badly ending journey for him? it is not going to work. this is one area where the president can't brand his way
out. do you really want to stand with him? >> willie, liz cheney told the truth. and she has been pretty consistent during this pandemic, taking it seriously. other republicans, off the record, are taking it very seriously. other republicans, off the record, are very concerned. you just wonder, why don't they say things publicly like liz cheney? why don't they look at mike dewine in ohio, who has an 86% approval rating for not plien y blindly following donald trump. you can be a republican and follow he donald trump, be brian kemp, and have a disastrous approval rating. or be mike dewine, follow dr. fauci, and follow your own scientists and your own doctors and your own nurses and have an 86% approval rating.
this, politically even, is not a difficult choice to make if you're a republican. >> well, it's one of the enduring questions of the trump years, why? why is it so difficult to come out and say the truth? because they fear a tweet. they fear the wrath of donald trump supporters, i guess. i can't speak for them. think about where we are, that it is exceptional, that we had to hold up one tweet from one united states congresswoman stating the obvious, that dr. fauci, who as kasie said, worked for republicans and democrats over 35, 40 years, is just delivering his scientific opinion based on the data. the president can do whatever he wants with it. governors can do what they want with it. the role of dr. fauci is to explain to political leaders what's happening, where he thinks it may go. as we know, in this white house, the only measure that really counts is your loyalty. now, we have this paradox, where you have the leading infectious disease expert in the country, dr. fauci, delivering his
scientific opinion of what's happening and where it is going. it is running counter to the white house narrative that it is time to move on. science is viewed as disloyalty. >> loyalty, blind, deadly loyalty at this point. still ahead on "morning joe," former presidential candidate pete buttigieg joins the conversation. plus, the vice chair of the senate intel committee, mark warner, will be our guest. and former fda commissioner, dr. scott gottlieb, with his essential analysis of the pandemic. jo you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. tempur-pedic's mission is to give you truly transformative sleep. so, no more tossing and turning. because only tempur-pedic adapts and responds to your body... ...so you get deep, uninterrupted sleep. during the tempur-pedic summer of sleep, all tempur-pedic mattresses are on sale! make family-sized meals fast, and because it's a ninja foodi,
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nationally, 51% to 46%. that includes a 15-point lead among voters 65 and over. trump won the voting group over clinton in 2016 by seven points, according to exit polls. a new internal poll in georgia shows joe biden and president trump in a dead heat in that state. the poll conducted by public opinion strategies, commissioned by a political action committee supporting georgia governor brian kemp, shows joe biden and donald trump separated by one point, 47% to 46%. >> boy, i'll tell you what. >> whew. >> that polling out in georgia is so suspect, willie. public opinion strategies has only been one of the top republican pollsters for years. they were my pollster, by the way, been doing it a long time. usually get those races right. willie, somebody said yesterday, you can't really trust georgia. i mean, a lot of libtards down there. that's a left-wing coastal elite
state. actually, it is the second state, the second time, second poll thin a row that donald tru is basically tied in georgia. we saw the "dallas morning news" poll last week, showing donald trump -- or was it this week -- tied in texas. he's losing poll after poll after poll, and here's a news flash. donald, i know you hate it when i tell you the same thing over and over and over and over again. >> please don't tweet. >> say it again, donald, these senior citizens you're lying to, you're putting their lives at risk. >> they know it. >> now they know it. as i told you months ago, i think it was, donald, donald, hey, donald, put down your phone and listen for a second. these seniors go to doctors they've known for 25, 30 years, and they say, "is the president telling truth or is fauci telling the truth?"
doctor says, "listen, i voted for trump last time, but he is lying to you about your health and this is dangerous." i warned you about that, and you got really mad, i guess. i don't know. it's happening, donald. it's happening. seniors are breaking away from you in swing state after swing state. even states that aren't swing states, like georgia. willie, you look, and every poll we're showing, senior citizens are just saying no to the lies of donald trump. the deadly lies of donald trump about their health. he's got, you know -- he's also got his economic people saying, "hey, go out. seniors are going to die. it happens." donald trump himself said, "people are going to go, so go out and start working." there's no balance. there's no nuance. there's no safe steppi inping b into the economy. it's all donald trump saying, "ignore the white house
guidelines." we're seeing in the polls again, willie, senior citizens, they know what's going on. they've been around a while. they're kind of smart. they talk to their doctors. they realize donald trump is putting their lives on the line. >> yeah, and it is affecting either them or someone they know. we saw the poll a couple days ago in wisconsin. 20-point spread for biden among older voters. this has it nationally with 65 and older. what's interesting, president trump, because he doesn't have the economy to lean on, which was going to be the theme of his re-election campaign, he's now moving toward, and there's been a lot of reporting the last couple days on this, a campaign theme against joe biden. that joe biden is old and dottering, because he is 77 years old and will be 78 on inauguration day. donald trump, one month from today, turns 74 years old. we don't need to roll out the clips of his presentation often to show it is equally dottering
many times to joe biden's. is that an effective campaign theme, number one, given his comparison on that matter to joe biden? number two, given his standing with older voters, which is slipping in the middle of this pandemic. >> the trump campaign thinks it is. they've been laying the groundwork for this for months. the tweeted clips, the videos, the president calling joe biden sleepy and so on. although, of course, living in glass houses seems to be the warning here for that line of attack. what the trump campaign is also really leaning into, and this is another one that feels like rubber and glue might be the best analogy, is trying to lean into joe biden's ties to china when he was vice president. he was too soft on china. he was president obama's point person to asia, suggesting that he supported a lot of global trade deals that were beneficial for other countries and hurt some of the manufacturing and factories in the midwest.
they leaned into that in 2016, as well. obviously, the president, as has been well documented on this show, has also been very full of praise for china and xi jinping, the leader there, for its handling of the pandemic in the early stages. he since, of course, has become critical of that. the trump campaign has been saying in recent days that, as they've leaned into the ad, they've unleashed attack ad, they're seeing movement there. they're seeing room to grow there. they feel like, right now, there's not much they can do to improve the president's standing among voters. they need to focus, therefore, on driving down joe biden's standing with voters. senior citizens, a real concern. their internal polling shows real slippage there. they know they can't afford that. seniors supported the president last time around. he had a rather healthy margin against hillary clinton with that age group. he needs to duplicate that now. one other piece of news, the same cnn poll that has biden up nationally, in the 15 battleground states, trump has a
lead. the poll, greater margin of error, but the poll shows trump up seven in the 15 battleground states, the states that are probably going to determine this election. the trump campaign, they're hopeful they've stopped the president's slide, even though, as you point out, a place like georgia, if that's in play, that opens up more paths for biden to the white house. the battleground states, they remain close, and they'll be ones to watch. the president's team, for what it is worth, feel better now than a couple weeks ago. >> they clump together 15 states. you look at every individual state poll, whether wisconsin, biden is ahead there. michigan, biden ahead there. florida, bide season ahead there. pennsylvania, biden's ahead there. georgia, in this poll, biden's ahead there. tied in another georgia poll. tied in texas. arizona is tight. the senate for republicans slipping away by the day, they think. a lot of very bad things going
on. it is very interesting. in 2016, mika always brought up the fact that all of donald trump's weaknesses couldn't be exploited by hillary clinton because, if it was about being honest and trustworthy, hillary's honest and trustworthy numbers were just as low as donald trump's. she'd been in office 25, 30 years, battered in public for 25, 30 years. she couldn't debate him on that. whenever she talked about sexual harassment, then donald trump would start attacking bill clinton. that always neutralized that argument. all the arguments always seemed to be neutralized. jeffrey goldberg, we now find donald trump in the same position in 2020 that hillary clinton was in 2016. he wants to say joe biden is dottering? there's about ten minutes of "daily show" clips that show donald trump forgets, like, what he's saying halfway through his sentence, time and time again.
he sort of fades away. he walks to wrong doors. there are times that he has to be guided around by mike pence by the arm because he's so disoriented, lost, and confused. it's the same thing with china. i don't know if you've seen this tweet or not, but the most critical time in this pandemic early on, this is what donald trump said about china. i don't know if you've seen this. it is fascinating. if you're going to attack joe biden on china, i mean, it's hard to do that. i don't know if you've seen this, jeffrey, this was january 24th, 2020. donald trump tweeted this out at 5:18 p.m. he was wide awake when he tweeted this out. he said this, donald trump did, "china has been working very hard to contain the coronavirus." that's what donald trump said. "the united states greatly appreciates their efforts and china's transparency," that is
what donald trump said. "it will all work out well," donald trump said, "in particular, on behalf of the american people." donald trump said, "i want to thank president xi." those are the words of donald j. trump. that is what donald j. trump said. jeffrey goldberg, i know you were moved by that lincoln esque reading of donald trump's words. they're clips. time and time again, he's talking about how much he loves president xi. what a great job china is doing. great transparency. he's been darting back and forth. there's no attack on joe biden. on china either. like, this is a guy -- and i guess it goes back to your conspiracy theories. at the end of the day, he's just going to have to make stuff up to stay competitive in this race. >> joe, two things. one, that was a very stirring
reading, by the way. >> yes, thank you very much. >> point two is, you hit on this, the conspiracy issue, donald trump's superpower is that his legitimately believes absurd conspiracy theories, or at the very least, has the facsimile of believing them. leans into the acting, but i think he really believes them. so you're right, he tweeted this. but to a large number of his followers -- remember, a large number of his followers believe in this phenomena, which we have a great piece on it. "atlantic" plug. pardon me. it's up today. they believe absurd things, some of his followers, and so does he. look at obamagate. quote, unquote, obamagate.
hillary clinton was limited in her behavior, campaign was limited in their behavior by -- say what you will about hillary clinton -- but adherence to a set of facts, adherence to reality, at the titethered to s of understanding of the world. you couldn't go out and make up obamagate if you're hillary clinton. trump's superpower is that, is that he really embraces this, and he is his own fog machine. so people are going to -- and, look, we have a role here in the media. we have to be careful not to say, "well, you know, trump raises interesting questions about obamagate,"s a or however might get phrased. it's not there, but he believes it's there and he sells hard. that's where joe biden will face a uniquely difficult challenge. >> it is. it is interesting. donald trump plays by his own rules, plays by his own set of facts, makes them up, lies
repeatedly, over 18,000 lies. it is interesting. all of his followers, too, play along in this game. the media online, on tv, they don't call him out on his 18,000 lies. when the press makes a mistake, when jimmy kimmel tweets a video -- >> made a mistake. >> -- and i made a mistake of re-tweeting the video. apologized and took it down. >> yeah. >> chuck todd does something over the weekend. these people that ignored the 18,000 lies, and all the lies he did on monday at the press conference, and the racist statements, they get their anti anti-trump fainting couches. let me just tell you, they're beautiful fainting couches. >> really? >> they've absorbed impact from anti anti-trump experts over the past four years. brilliant fainting couches. they take the falls repeatedly. and i had -- the fainting by
these anti anti-trumpers, they'll never come out and defend him and the rheinous, racist things he says, but they'll get really angry. jimmy kimmel, the video! how are we going to move forward as a republic if we can't trust what jimmy kimmel says? >> i said freaking nuts, and people went crazy. >> mika said, freaking nuts. >> all the tweets. >> the fainting couches came out in loser places. they get their fainting couches out. anyway, i'm giving you a point here. i know it is hard to believe, i'm getting to a point, willie, but i'm getting to a point. >> it's a good one. >> this is the point. a guy i respect greatly tweeted, a former republican, he said, "oh, what are we going to do? jimmy kimmel and chuck todd, what are we going to do?
this is the wrong time, the middle of trump's" -- wait a second, hold on. hold on. there's sort of this falling into this moral equivalency bull you know what, this b.s. >> it's a headline. >> that the trumpers push. there is a moral equivalency about donald trump lying about a pandemic and a late-night comic screwing up an edit on a video and pushing it out, even though he apologized. donald trump never apologized. >> immediately apologized for. >> yeah. you see, that's the thing. so, yes, the media shouldn't follow along with donald trump's lies. or when ron johnson, head of homeland security for the united states senate, decides not to hold hearings on keeping americans safe going into the fall but, instead, wants to hold hearings on what, obamagate? on hunter biden, yi think it is.
burisma. there is a reason your approval ratings are low in wisconsin. you should be ashamed of yourself. i know you're not, but you should be. you should hide your head in shame. over 80,000 americans are dead. going to have maybe 120,000, 130,000, 140,000, according to some models, may be dead in the coming months. and you're investigating hunter biden. shameless. shameless. listen, i say to the media, because i know they listen to me, go, "what's joe going to say?" ig authnore those with the anti anti-trump fainting couches and conspiracy theories, and charge straight ahead on what matters. that is, who is telling truth about the worst crisis america
has faced since world war ii, and who is lying every day? that's the news story americans want to hear. jeffrey goldberg, thank you so much. we'll be reading the new issue of "the atlantic" and your great piece. coming up, what is is going on in the world while we're all focused on the coronavirus? richard haass joins us next on "morning joe." can my side be firm? and my side super soft? yes. with the sleep number 360 smart bed, on sale now, you can both adjust your comfort with your sleep number setting. can it help me fall asleep faster? yes. by gently warming your feet. but can it help keep me asleep?
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it is 50 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." kasie hunt, couple of things to get to before you go. what's the deal with senator richard burr, having his cell phone taken by the fbi last night? >> reporter: nbc news just confirmed this "los angeles times" scoop. our pete williams reporting via law enforcement official that the fbi seized richard burr's cell phone. they obtained a search warrant for it and took it from him. in the course of their investigation into his stock trading, we had learned a few months ago, that burr made some very fortuitously timed stock sales that were right before the coronavirus pandemic really hit the u.s. between about 600,0$600,000 and million worth. it is hard to know the number because of the way the reporting works for these disclosures. most of the stock he sold then
dropped precipitously. this raised questions, obviously, in his role as the senate intelligence committee chairman. he is privy to a lot of non-public information. not just more than you and i in the public, but also more information than most members of congress. he is part of the gang of eight that receives special briefings from the intelligence community. a lot of questions around, you know, those transactions. this has been an ongoing investigation. this is a significant development. it is extraordinarily rare, and it is likely, if you speak with legal experts -- and, you know, i've been talking to folks a little overnight. this broke late last night -- but it is likely that this would have had to have been authorized, you know, basically at the top of the department of justice. obviously, this is something that deals with a separate and co-equal branch of government. it is not something we see every day. we also know that this president has been pretty frustrated with
some of the things that richard burr has done as chairman of the senate intelligence committee. most recently, his committee incurred in the assessment that the russians interfered in our 2016 election, not just generally, but specifically to help donald trump win the election. so a pretty high stakes showdown here. of course, i think a lot of americans, very frustrated that it would seem as though burr, and perhaps another colleague, kel kelly loeffler of georgia, made well-timed stock trades that benefitted her family financially. more serious in the case of r h richard burr right now. >> we'll keep reporting that story out today. also, we've been talking about dr. fauci's testimony to the senate two days ago. on capitol hill today, rick bright, the former head of the biomedical research and
development authority, who was ousted from his job last month, you'll remember, is expected to testify before congress today, that the trump administration was unprepared for the coronavirus despite several early warnings. according to his prepared testimony, bright will tell congress, leadership at the department of health and human services, quote, forgot important pages from our pandemic playbook. now, our window of opportunity is closing. bright's testimony refers to claims made in his whistleblower report, the one he filed last week, that alleges he was ousted over his attempts to limit the use of hydroxychloroquine, the unproven drug touted repeatedly by president trump to treat the virus. the testimony also claims he urged the hhs to ramp up production of masks, respirators, and medical supplies as far back as january, but the warnings were dismissed. he was, quote, cut out of key, high-level meetings to combat covid-19. bright's testimony warns that without clear planning and implementation of the steps
outlined by him and other experts, 2020 will be the, quote, darkest winter in modern history. very dramatic quote there that we'll hear in testimony before a house subcommittee today. kasie, this is a man, who was, who has moved ut ed out of his couple weeks ago because, he said in the whistleblower report, he refused to push hydroxychloroquine the way the white house wanted him to. >> reporter: he is essentially arguing he was demoted because he failed to toe the partisan political line on that, and he has criticism on the way some trump administration fesofficia were, in his view, using their positions to give contracts to people that were well-connected, cronyism, if you will. as you point out, this is going to be before a house hearing. i think it could potentially be pretty dramatic, as he kind of underscores, you know, for all of us, the points we've been making all morning.
these questions about whether our government is listening to scientists. some republicans, mitch mcconnell appeared on the trump tv with lara trump, suggesting that the obama administration didn't leave them a pandemic playbook. you could go on to ron klain's twitter. he was the ebola czar. there are pictures of the pages from the pandemic playbook that was left behind by the obama administration. i think you can expect to see those themes throughout the testimony today. >> you know, kasie, quickly, i want to circle back to the richard burr story. obviously, the president very upset that richard burr did his job on the intel committee. they said that, actually, vladimir putin was trying to interfere with the u.s. election. kelly loeffler also was i implicated for making money off of this pandemic. any reports? did they seize her cell phone, as well, or did they just seize -- did barr and the
justice department just seize the cell phone of the republican that donald trump doesn't like? >> reporter: as far as we know now, joe, our reporting is that senator burr's cell phone has been seized. as far as we know, kelly loeffler still is in possession of hers. we should underscore, i absolutely take your point. kelly loeffler is not the chairman of the intelligence committee. she's not privy to the same information as richard burr. her trades were larger in number. however, a much less significant portion of her net worth. it is true that this president and this white house has been frustrated with how richard burr has run the operation at the center of the intelligence committee. while he's not been show y or public about it, he's disagreed in key moments. he was weary with burisma and hunter biden. he has allowed the probe to go on. i think it is important to note that burr is still working on the final iteration of the russia report that his committee
has now been working on for years. we expect that in the next couple of months. there are a lot of things potentially there that have angered -- oh, and the other thing i would say, joe, too, is the incoming, expected new director of national intelligence, ratcliffe, a congressman, widely viewed as very partisan. trump nominated him before richard burr said, "this guy can isn't right for the job," and he was withdrawn. after the news comes out, ratcliffe had another hearing in front of the intelligence committee and is expected to be confirmed. that has changed in light of the information. >> interesting. also, grenell, the least qualified person to ever sit in any intel position in washington, d.c., of course, declassifying names to try to prove donald trump's point, that
obamagate, obamagate is the worst political crisis in history. worst scandal in history. by the way, go to the "washington post" and read a hilarious column on that topic. nbc's casey lukasie hunt, we ap it. >> great job. let's bring in richard haass, author of "the world: a brief introduction." soon, i think, when they reopen broadly, i am sure it is going to be a broadway musical, destined to give "hamilton" a run for its money. in terms of the pure gross receipts. it is going to be massive. richard, i know we talked about it yesterday, but i just -- i want to spring bring it up agai because it's a story that struck a chord with the american people, who i'm sure are reading "the world: a brief introduction." that is, people saying, "what's going on with china?" they're really trying to hack
in, interfere with our development of vaccines, our development of drugs that will make not only americans but people across the world safer? again, this is the sort of thing you would expect from north korea, not the sort of thing most americans would expect from chi china. after hearing for 20 years from ceos from a great trading partner and economic partner china is. why would china take such a risk? >> joe, i think the most likely explanation of what china is doing is not so much so interfere with what we're doing but profit from it. there is civilian, technology, military, chinese see what they can gain from the united states, bring it into their own laboratories, and see if they can't be the ones to come up with the vaccine.
that would be a major game-changer for them in terms of recouping their reputation around the world. they're, for good reason, getting a lot of blame, given that the pandemic started in china. the chinese have mishandled it. they haven't been open. i think for the chinese, somehow being associated with the vaccine would be a major win for them and xi jinping. my guess is they're trying to use us as a shortcut. >> this, of course, as you said, they've done this before. i remember back in '95, '96, '97, we had fierce debates about whether to extend most favored trade status to the chinese or not. nancy pelosi and i were on the same side, fighting against extending it. in part, because the chinese, even pack thback then, were steo much of american companies' property. has nothing really changed over the past 25 years? is it still business as usual? i guess a bigger question is, if
we're going to share the global stage with this country over the next half century, is this who -- are we really going to be sharing the stage with bandits, with thieves, the serial human rights abusers, or can we expect china to start evolving towards something more mainstream at some point? >> well, look, they have stolen all sorts of stuff, even though they've signed agreements not to. one interesting development is that more and more patents are emerging in china, rather than the united states and europe. it's quite possible that as this process continues, that china is in a position to benefit from the patents they develop and initiated. they may become slightly more conservative, a protective of intellectual property. my guess is that, over time, they are more successful.
they actually will become a little bit more of a conser conservative country in that one regard. you raise a basic point. american foreign policy, dealing with china for decades is come, is how do we deal with a country that is increasingly impressive at home, authoritarian in ways, trying to change the map physically like places as the south china sea. as the same time, we want and need their cooperation, dealing with everything from climate change, given it's the world's second largest economy. 1.3 billion people. we need their help in dealing with north korea, which hasn't stopped for a second in developing nuclear weapons and missiles. we need their help with iran. that's the challenge for american foreign policy. how do we push become on mondays, wednesdays, and fridays with china, and how do we carve out areas of cooperation on tuesdays and thufrsdays? >> we're going to continue our trip around the world with richard haass in a moment. first, it is a few minutes
past the top of the hour. let's bring in msnbc contributor mike barnicle. msnbc national affairs analyst, co-host of "the circus," and editor of "the recount," john heilemann. and yamiche alcindor of pbs news hour. jonathan lemire is still with us, as well. >> let's talk about polls. one poll after another is showing donald trump get routed by joe biden when it comes to senior citizens. as we predicted, you lie to senior citizens about things that can kill them, senior citizens probably less likely than more likely to vote for you in the upcoming election. it seems to make sense to me. i don't know much about politicians, but i do get that. 57% to 42%. general election matchup. these are numbers we haven't seen. seniors used to be trump's base. another georgia poll by public
opinion strategies. joe biden ahead by a point in a republican poll. texas this week, biden tied with trump in texas this week. this map is breaking hard for biden and democrats. what are republicans to do? >> you know, joe, this is not -- i feel like there's a little bit of a -- in the same way we talk about trump the last three years, there's been a little bit of that quality to the discussion. we now are in the same phase around biden and the polling, just because there's been such consistent movement over the last few weeks in the middle of the pandemic. it is unmistakable. you're right. whether it's -- i moean, if you're donald trump and you understand that you are going to lose the popular vote. you lost the popular vote the last time by 3 million. you'd think you're probably going to lose the popular vote by more than that.
before the pandemic, you were destined to lose the popular vote. i have to pull an inside royal flush this time, right? i have to string together a narrow path, a narrow selection of states in the electoral college that will allow me to repeat what i did last time. that's why the polls are discouraging. it is not the national poll number. no one cares about national polls. what they care about is the state by state polls. they care about the president's approval rating on the central issue of the day, his handling of coronavirus. and they care about the demographic breakouts, these groups the president was able to drive up numbers with. again, it's a fragile thing for him to get to 270. as they look at this at the polling coming in, they're not paying attention to the headline numbers on the national polls, the head-to-heads. they're looking at things like the georgia poll, the texas poll. you think about the six key battleground states. both sides admit, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, north carolina, florida, and arizona.
we've seen numbers coming out of all six of those states, whether on the metrics i laid out that have been bad for trump the course of the last three weeks, and then you plthrow in the democratic states that aren't really battlegrounds but you'd want in play if you're the biden campaign. georgia, texas. both states you pointed out have had discouraging numbers for donald trump. >> add arizona to that. >> well, i think arizona is a core battleground state a this point. not a democratic reach state. joe biden looks good in arizona, too. you think about it right now, the president's people sit around saying, "joe biden is in his basement." i'll tell ya, i don't recommend you do this, but if you watch trump tv, their youtube channel, they have an hour every night on trump tv right now, reaching a lot of people. go spend time and watch it. mcconnell was on there the other night, attacking obama. if you watch the channel and see what the messages are they're driving on joe biden, it is,
he's in his basement. he's old. he's infirm. he's sleepy joe. might be senile. it is over and over and over again, they're hammering this stuff. think about that message. then look at what's happening in the polls. joe biden is sitting in his basement, according to donald trump, and still beating him on almost every metric that counts in terms of the data right now. that does not mean donald trump can't win this election. he can win this election. but right now, if joe biden is the infirm one, the sleepy one, the mentally debilitated one who can't get out of his basement because he is afraid, why, donald trump, is he beating you in basically every battleground state and every key demographic? >> it also could be that the vice president is observing the guidelines put out by the white house by staying home. john heilemann, you have a big fruit salad over your future there. let you get to pineapple dicing while i turn to yamiche. yamiche, the president criticized anthony fauci's
remarks, that reopening the economy too soon would cost lives and set back the economic recovery. here is dr. fauci on tuesday, followed by president trump with his criticism of dr. fauci yesterday. >> there is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may not be able to control, which, in fact, paradoxically, will set you back. not only leading to some suffering and death that could be avoided, but could even set you back on the road to trying to get economic recovery. it would almost turn the clock back rather than going forward. >> dr. fauci yesterday was a little cautious on reopening the economy too soon. do you share his concerns? >> about reopening what? >> reopening the economy too soon in some states. >> look, he wants to play all sides of the equation. i think we're going to have a tremendous fourth quarter. think we'll have a transitional third quarter. i think we'll have a phenomenal next year.
i feel we are going to have a country that's ready to absolutely have one of its pest years. next year, with all of the stimulus and all of the fact that it is a pent up demand like i haven't seen. >> when you say dr. fauci is playing both sides. are you suggesting that the advice he is giving to you is different? >> i was surprised by his answer, actually. you know, it's just -- to me, it's not an acceptable answer. especially when it comes to schools. the only thing that would be acceptable, as i said, is professors, teachers, et cetera, over a certain age, i think they ought to take it easy another few weeks, five weeks, four weeks, who knows, whatever it may be. >> yamiche, we see something spilling out into the open that, as you know covering the white house, has been discussed privately for a long time, and that is president trump's frustrations with dr. fauci, going out and telling the scientific truth. it crosses the president's narrative that we've turned the corner, that we've prevailed on testing. it's time to move on and get kids back into school. if you go back and listen to dr.
fauci's full testimony to the senate two days ago, he basically said, "we have to be humble in our analysis and our predictions. we don't know where this is headed." no, dr. fauci said, i'm not prepared to say everyone should rush back into schools come august and september. >> that's right. dr. fauci also said he didn't have a confrontational relationship with president trump. yesterday, we heard in a remarkable moment, what president trump was saying there, was that he was making his most biting criticism yet of dr. anthony fauci. before this, he'd never really publicly criticized dr. fauci. yesterday, he said his answer being not acceptable on school openings. he also suggested, president trump, that older professors, older teachers, they could stay home while younger students go back in. what we know now is dr. fauci has said clearly, do not be cavalier when it comes to children and the effects the virus can have on them. you have dr. fauci warning what president trump just did, which
is that dr. fauci is telling us, don't think too hard about the fact -- or think very hard about the idea that students, while they not be the ones that die of the virus, they can spread it. if a student goes to school, they might come home and infect their grandmother or parents. while president trump is eager to reopen america, he's really contrasting what dr. fauci was saying. dr. fauci, again, warned against exactly what president trump did yesterday, which is really say, children, they're okay. the rest of the country, maybe we can take a little slower. >> yeah. again, it goes against what the president has said himself. willie brought up earlier, by the way, john heilemann's pineapple dicing. let's go now to a man whose articles on pineapple dicing and cleansing appear weekly on goop, mike barnicle. >> goop? >> thank you for taking time-out from being your goop articles on pineapple dicing and a certain kind of cleansing to answer
these questions. >> horrible. >> isn't that a horrid thought? >> yes. >> anyway, mike. >> yes? >> i have a quote here from donald trump. he said, quote, i was surprised by fauci's answers. not an acceptable answer. dr. fauci's answers followed donald trump's own guidelines. followed the white house's own guidelines, that donald trump announced to fanfare from one of his afternoon press conferences a few weeks back. so when donald trump is saying that it's not an acceptable answer, and he was surprised by dr. fauci's answer, what donald trump is saying is that his own white house guidelines that he announced weeks ago are not acceptable guidelines. again, this is a guy who is darting left and right, a day trader who is reading polls. now, he is freaking out. he is avoiding and undercutting
his own advice to the american people. >> joe, you know, shameless plug here, you don't have to go to mike's daily fruit bowl.com, which is where i sell fruit on. >> great site. >> in order to get insight on this. to your point, joe, everyone in this country now knows something that donald trump refuses to acknowledge publicly. sickness and death are bad for the national economy. people don't like that, sickness and death. he is dealing with that. he is also dealing with the fact that he's never stood up in front of the nation and articulated a national policy on testing, a national policy on contact tracing, a national voice on basically where we're headed, where we've been, how bad it is, how much it's improving. it is improving a bit in certain states. you just don't hear the kind of words from donald trump, who
fancies himself a commander in chief, but seems to have forgotten the principle objective of any commander in chief, the safety of his troops or, in this case, the people of this country. >> well, the sentencing judge in the case of former national security adviser, michael flynn, has asked a retired federal judge to challenge the justice department's motion to withdraw charges against flynn for lying to the fbi. u.s. district court judge, emmett sullivan, has appointed former new york judge, john gleeson, to provide a non-binding recommendation on whether flynn should face a criminal contempt hearing for needing guilty to a crime he now says he didn't commit. the appointment follows a co-authored opinion piece in the "washington post," in which gleeson wrote, "the law provides that the court, not the executive branch, decides whether an indictment may be
dismissed. the responsible exercise of the authority is important here, where a defendant's plea of guilty has will ever bealready accepted." >> jonathan lemire, things are looking a bit more complicated for general flynn and donald trump and for attorney general barr than they were a few days ago. they actually pushed something that really was without precedent. basically lied, said they couldn't win this in open court. said new evidence came forward, the fbi notes, when they had had the fbi notes from the very beginning. it is going to be a rough ride, not only for general flynn and barr, but also for whatever hack decides to come in and try to defend what the justice department is doing. of course, career prosecutors all refused to follow along with barr's political decision, to drop this case.
where donald trump said he lied to the fbi. vice president pence said he lied to the fbi. flynn himself said he lied to the fbi. so what's the next move for the white house? what's the next move for barr? >> joe, first of all, beyond the fruit bowl, i should let you know that mike is in discussions to installing an omelet station behind his shot there. >> oh. >> where we are -- >> got it. >> where we are now though, things have certainly gotten -- i'm hungry. we're all hungry. it's that time. things have gotten a little less clear, joe, to your point. yesterday, as you saw, the judge has appointed another former prosecutor to argue the government's side of this, as the doj has basically withdrawn their argument on the flynn case. flynn, of course, the biggest witness to flynn's guilt, as some have said, was niek flynn. he confessed, admitted to lying to the fbi.
of course, that is why the vice president and the president himself, you know, playing the president's words when needed. he is in an interrview in 2017 saying, "i fired michael flynn because he lied to the fbi, and that was the right thing to do." i'm paraphrasing. we're now seeing an attempt to bring him back, and his legal future remains uncertain. not clear what will happen to flynn in the days and weeks. what is clear is the president and his team are trying to score political points here for two reasons. one, it is, again, part of their years long crusade to try to undermine the findings of robert mueller's special counsel probe to russia. there are indictments and guilty pleas brought by robert mueller. there are people associated with the president who have pled guilty and who are in prison, although in paul manafort's case, now home confinement, in relation to that probe, even though it did not find conspiracy in terms of criminal charge with the president
himself, in terms of his work, any connection with russia. secondly, of course, they're trying to weaponize this as another attempt to take shots at the deep state, the obama administration and, in particular, obama's former vice president, joe biden. who just so happens, of course, now to be president trump's general election opponent. we saw some stories yesterday about how joe biden was one of the number of americans who asked for the so-called unmaski unmasking, which is a common procedure when an american, in this case, michael flynn, is picked up on surveillance of a foreign official. in this case, the russian ambassador. expect to see a lot of smoke generated from the white house in nmaga world on this case on the days ahead, in an attempt to confuse another bad headline for the president. >> it is ham fisted, john heilemann. you have all these other charges that can moss by be brought against general flynn. you had that meeting, that a former cia director was a part
of with flynn, where they talked about actually kidnapping a man from pennsylvania and shoving him on a plane and sending him back to erdogan in turkey, where he'd be tortured, imprisoned, and thrown in jail. there were a lot of things that were thrown to the side like that for a plea deal with flynn. i'm just not so sure he wants to open all of this back up. it does appear that barr messed with the wrong federal judge here. >> yeah, yes, it does. i think, you know, this judge has -- the signs have been clear for a while that, if you were paying attention, this wasn't a judge who would accept this, just given the circumstances, given the egregiousness of what's going on here. i think, you know, there's some times where -- the one thing you can say about the attorney general is that his political
maneuvering on this and other matters has the virtue of abject ruthlessness. there are times in washington, joe, where you can, by sheer brazenness, and if you have enough actual power, you can accomplish things on the basis of just -- i'm just going to use bullhead. there are other times when that can be a dangerous strategy, a dangerous tactic. i think in one of them is when you start to mess around with the federal judiciary. i think this is a case where, you know, bill barr has kind of combined ruthlessness with sk d shrewdness, much to donald's benefit. in this case, it is barr. i think in this case, he's been out of court for a little too long. the ruthlessness was there in making this decision about mike flynn, or pushing for this decision about mike flynn. it is not clear to me that -- it is certain to me that he was clear-eyed enough about what this judge was going to -- how this judge was going to react
and how disabliangerous this co to not only himself but the president, if this blows up in various ways. >> yamiche, wondering if there is any word from the white house on this, and also the president is headed to pennsylvania today. if you can tell us what's planned for the trip and if the president plans to use the white house guidelines, including wearing masks, when he interacts with people on this trip. >> what the president -- it seems as though the president is likely not to wear a mask because he says that he's tested every single day, and that he is negative for the coronavirus. now, there are, of course, people that have urged the president to wear a mask. of course, the white house policy now is that everyone who walks into the west wing, the staffers who walk into the west wing, that they all have to wear ma masks, except for the president. today, the president is going to a crucial battleground state. we can expect the president is going to be talking about the importance of reopening america. he'll also be touting his own opinions. this is about the president leaning into his own political
instinct, leaning into this idea that he knows what's best for the american economy, what's best for the american people. again, it's really -- you can't go without saying, there is going to be a whistleblower who will be testifying while the president is making this trip. on capitol hill, saying the president fired him, bright, because he thinks the president wants to put expediency over science. you have the split-screens, where the president is going to tout his message which, of course, will be tied to his re-election bid. you have a scientist saying, look, this is an administration that doesn't value science. this is an administration that's trying to do whatever it can to get president trump elected, including, if needed, usurping science and really skipping things in order to get some treatment and vaccine out to the american people. >> yamiche, thank you. joe, the only problem with the president saying that he gets tested every day, and that means he dubt haoesn't have it, is th there are tests that come back
with inconclusive or incorrect answers. we have a colleague who tested negative five times. some of these tests don't come back with the positives they should. it is not really the safest way to interact with people without wearing a mask. >> there's no doubt about it. we're learning that the abbott labs test that we've heard about, and that a lot of people cheered about, for good reason. >> think the white house uses those? >> we heard it could turn results around in 24 hours. we're learning that this rapid coronavirus test missed positive cases in some instances, as many as 48% of the time. this is, of course, what happens when you have to rush fda approval for tests and for other things. it happens. it's one of the trade-offs. there is a reason why the fda has a madingdeninmaddeningly,
excruciatingly long process for this. we're in a crisis. we have to move a lot of the guidelines up faster. when we do, we're not going to have tests that are quite as accurate. as dr. dave said yesterday, there is a test coming online now that is almost 100% a accurate. that's fantastic, moving forward. we're going to talk to scott dlo gottlieb about all of this coming up. alex, i'm sorry, who did you want me to go -- richard haass. richard haass is here. richard, why don't we end up where we began, with you talking about "the world." what hot spots do we have? you talked about north korea still moving forward with their missile testing program and their nuclear program as quickly as possible. hasn't been stopped. donald trump, of course, wrong there, too, saying we didn't have to worry about north korea's program anymore. we do. what other hot spots across the globe are we taking our eyes off
of right now because of the coronavirus? >> let me just suggest a few things that people are missing that are really interesting. one is afghanistan. any pretense of a peace process there has been stripped away. we're still talking about getting out, but essentially, the government there has given up on the taliban. they've resumed offensive operations in the wake of horrendous terrorist attacks. that's one thing that is interesting. secondly, in europe, the most senior port in germany issued a ruling that raised fundamental questions about the privacy or superiority of the european union, what it was doing in the realm of economic policy. this probably represents the biggest legal and political challenge to the eu in its history. essenti essentially, the government of germany saying, we can't take our lead from what the eu does. lastly, joe, an interesting set of realities in places like retu russia, iran, saudi arabia, where the countries are truly
dependent upon oil. they're in serious, serious trouble. they're battling the coronavirus. in the case of russia and iran, they're also battling american sanctions. the question is how they're going to get through what is probably, for putin, the most difficult moment of his presidency. for iran, probably the greatest threat to the revolution in four decades. interesting things are taking place in the world while, understandably, gaze is elsewhere. >> richard, you said a fascinating quote, you said the coronavirus is not going to change history, it is going to accelerate it. i wonder if that's not what we're seeing with the eu. of course, britain moving away from the eu. germany now, they have economic incentive for moving away from the eu. one of my biggest concerns about the eu, as we've discussed through the years, had to do with borders. you could move freely across the borders. it seemed like a great idea in
europe. americans have never quite understood, most americans haven't quite understood that mindset. i wonder if the pandemic has made nation states in europe understand that sometimes borders, or the lack of borders, come with certain consequences that can be troublesome. >> as you say, this crisis has accelerated history. every trend we could see before covid-19 was something any of us knew about. virtually every trend has been accelerated, intensified, from the deterioration of u.s./chinese relations that you and i talked about over the week to the weakening of the european project. germany doesn't want to make massive cash transfers to the poor r cower countries of europe italy.
it is showing the disparity between the wealthy and less wealthy. it creates a crisis. the stakes are enormous. the european project, the european union, essentially brought unprecedented peace, prosperity, and wealth to europe through the present. the last thing in the world we want to see is for europe to become interesting again. the last time europe was interesting was during the first half of the 20th century. that was not a pretty movie. >> no, not a pretty movie at all. the book is "the world: a brief introduction," soon to be a broadway musical, i'm sure. we thank you. see you back here tomorrow as we round out the rich affordard hak on "morning joe." mika, quickly, as the president goes to pennsylvania -- i was distracted before richard came back on. pennsylvania governor, 72%. people approve of the way the governor is handling the coronavirus a heck of a lot more
than they approve of the way donald trump is handling the coronavirus. as he goes up there, and i'm sure doesn't wear a mask, doesn't follow his guidelines, all he's going to do is be hurting himself. again, this day trading, he just can't stop it. i understand. he's been doing this 74, 75 years. he can't help himself. every day, he just digs himself deeper in a political hole. >> when you're not wearing a mask, the mask is not to protect you. it is to protect others from you. it shows a certain care when you wear a mask and follow the guidelines. >> certainly, when you're with groups. if you're out walking with family, if you're walking even on the beaches, if you're walking through parks -- >> 6 feet apart. >> if you're 6 feet apart, that's one thing. the president goes to these meetings with groups. >> fly on planes. >> like mike pence, people all around. we saw the vice president's press secretary around a bunch of people with masks.
she ended up with coronavirus. the president loves to say he's been tested every day. he's getting tested by the abbott tests. sometimes 48%, 49% accurate. he doesn't know for sure if he has the coronavirus or not. again, i want to underline this, this is a trade-off we make. scott gottlieb will talk about this more. the abbott tests, guess what, they aren't that accurate right now, but i'm sure the people at abbott, as well as fda and everybody else, understood that as they were being pushed and rushed in. by the way, i don't know a buddy at abbott. i'm saying, this is a trade-off we have to make. i'm not so shocked that it's not as accurate as it should be. >> working in real time. >> everybody is working together. everybody is trying to get this done as quickly as possible. but, as we move further along in the process, obviously, the tests are getting more accurate. what baht erothers me, mika, th
president being cavalier saying, "we're being tested every day." yeah, it is a test that sometimes is only 48%, 49%, 50% accurate. >> wearing a mask would keep people safer from you if you are carrying it. coming up, withe know pete buttigieg is backing joe biden and not stopping there. the former presidential candidate rolled out a series of endorsements. he'll explain that. we'll be right back with more "morning joe."
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36 past the hour. live look at capitol hill, as the sun comes up over washington. joining us now, former presidential candidate and former mayor of south bend, indiana, democratic pete buttigi buttigieg. great to see you. his new pact, when the era, rolled out endorsements yesterday with the focus of electing down ballot democrats to local positions across the
country. we want to hear a lot more about that. mayor pete, mike barnicle has the first question. >> morning. >> pmayor pete, good to see you today. thanks for joining us. local down ballot elections. let's talk local and statewide stuff. as you know, i'm sure you know, we're living right now in a country filled with anxiety and vulnerability about what might happen to your individuals in your family in regard to the virus. washington, d.c., we get a series of mixed messages from the commander in chief, the president of the united states, who opposes one day what his experts have said the prior day. what can joe biden do about restoring the trust, not just in government, but in leadership of this government going forward? >> well, i think what we have in joe biden is somebody who is not just describing what a different
presidency could be, he is modeling it. every time he speaks up, it is with a basis in fact. it's with a fundamental compassion and empathy and dekrd decency joe biden has been known for throughout his career. you know, that kind of empathy should be more of the basics, that we expect from our american president. right now, we don't have it, and i think it is costing us. having a president that does not care. with the contradictory messages coming from a white house where, you know, the first rule of dealing with an emergency is to be clear, to be straightforward, have a consistent message. we just don't have that now. it's costing lives. i think back to early in the trump administration, talking to conservative friends who knew he wasn't a good leader, but kind of consoled themselves by saying, "it is hard to sink a ship. doesn't matter that much who the president is."
now, we're seeing why it matters. having said that, the presidency isn't the only office that matters. that's the message we're trying to send with win the era.com and win the era pact endorsements. in addition to doing everything in my power to make sure joe biden is our next president, i also want to make sure we don't take our eye off the ball with the other critical races going on. with our health on the line, we're seeing how governors and mayors are stepping up to protect their residents and constituents. with our democracy on the line, we're reminded how, in this country, for better or for worse, elections are run by state and even county officials. this is a time for us to make sure we not only have the right presidential leadership, but that we're getting great people elected and re-elected up and down the ticket. >> john heilemann has the next question. john? >> hey, mayor pete. i want to ask you, we talked a little on the show in the last, well, today and in days past, you know. you look at the numbers in this presidential race, and joe biden
has a lot to be encouraged by. there are a ton of democrats out there who tell me every day that they are nervous about one particular aspect of how this is all playing out. that is, the sort of image that donald trump is trying to capitalize on, of him being kind of a man in motion. he is out there, he is going to pennsylvania, he is going to arizona, and he has the white house podium. he's in the middle of this giant story on the pandemic. obviously, in many cases, making more problems than he is benefitting himself, but he is still there. he is in the middle of this thing. joe biden is in his home, observing cdc guidelines, but he is basically in his basement in delaware. the sense of him being kind of pinned down there and not having an official or unofficial way to get into the story. i hear from democrats every day that they worry about that. i ask you, as someone who ran a very strong digital campaign, who built a kind of movement around your candidacy, what kind of advice are you and the people
around you, who helped you with that, giving to the biden campaign, to help him deal with the challenges that he has in running this campaign in this environment, as someone with no public office? >> yeah. i mean, the first thing to remember is that being in constant motion doesn't serve you that well when the motion is that you're just chasing your tail. the president certainly is getting more attention, but that's not always going to be to his benefit, especially when things he's doing and saying don't make sense. having said that, it's definitely the case that this is a time that calls for innovation and new ways of reaching people. i think it's going to be very important for the biden campaign to continue to find ways, even if there's not the kind of usual shake of the hands and getting out on the trail that we think of as part of presidential campaigning. we do have to make sure that the message is getting everywhere, even when a candidate can't get
out everywhere. that's where things like, for example, i think they've been doing a great job adopting an approach that we found served us very well on the campaign, having digital captains. getting out to people who organically, spontaneously, on their own, on social distancing, show they're being supporters. kind of the equivalent to the person who would, in real life, walk through the doors of your campaign office on their own because they were excited about you. finding those same people online, then giving them the kind of toolkit from the official campaign to help enhance their ability to get out into their social networks, reach out to their friends and family. end of the day, that's the most convincing way a message can reach somebody. one thing to hear about a candidate on a campaign ad or through a speech on tv. it's another thing when someone you know and trust in your life says, "i'm voting for joe biden.
you should, too, and here's why." >> mayor buttigieg, willie geist. great to see you on the show again. i want to ask about indiana in regards to the coronavirus. as much as we talk about the failures at the top of the federal government to address this, and rightly so, this is a war that is being waged inside of states, like indiana, inside of states like yours in south bend. decisions being made between public health, business, and jobs, and getting people back to work. how is indiana doing? there's been some national attention given to the state of indiana for the good job the governor has done there, slowly reopening, keeping the number of cases down, assuring hospitals are not overwhelmed. what does coronavirus look like on the ground in south bend, indiana? >> you know, here in south bend, my successor has done, i think, a great job of making sure there is factual information about how to stay safe and treading cautiously. making sure we don't just try to snap back to normal before we're ready and wind up right back
where we started with more human and economic damage. this shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it is disturbing to see how, especially when the president started embracing these so-called reopen or liberate protesters, even though it was a fringe, it was like a signal went out to republican governors across the country that made, i think even those trying to do the right thing, have a harder time doing it. a lot of them go off the rails. i think the response here in inii indiana has been mixed. it's not a state where governors are preemptives mayors making decisions. texas, the state has their boot on the throat of mayors and county officials, trying to save lives. we've seen it in georgia. it's shocking to me to see, in case after case, governors overruling those who are on the ground, closest to the people, who really should be those that
you listen to. both in terms of public health officials and in terms of mayors. i'm looking not only for governors who are showing strong, clear leadership, but governors who are showing the ability to listen. >> pete buttigieg, it's always good to see you. we love what you're doing. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. this programming note, tonight on a "last word" special, lawrence o'donnell speaks with joe biden. they will be joined by stacey abrams, her first joint television interview with the presumptive democratic presidential nominee. that's tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern, right here on msnbc. coming up, roughly 2,500 inmates have been released to home confinement because of the pandemic. among them, president trump's former campaign manager, paul manafort. that conversation is next on "morning joe."
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it's 49 past the hour. we've got scott gottlieb coming up in a moment. first, a cross during our show yesterday, that president trump's former campaign manager, paul manafort, was being released early from prison to home confinement, due to the coronavirus, which has raised some questions about how some inmates might be able to get a sweet deal and others who are non-violent might be stuck in prison during a pandemic. joining us now, host of msnbc's
"politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. also, chief officer for the reform alliance, jessica jackson. jessica, i'll start jackson als. i'll start with you, jessica. is there a concern that there's sort of a inequality literally in the prison system during this pandemic between those who have the lawyers and the money to cut a sweet deal? >> absolutely. i mean we know that there's a disproportionate impact throughout our criminal justice system on african-americans and hispanics. for example, you have a state like mississippi where 37% of the population is caucasian. you have a prison where 66% of the population is african-american, 37% of the state is african-american, 66% of the prison is african-american. you've got a virus sweeping through that is basically a
death sentence, so, of course, people are going to be disproportionately impacted by the virus inside. >> but before i get to reverend al, what is the process that's being used to make these decisions? because if the pandemic is spreading across prisons equally, why wouldn't all nonviolent offenders be treated the same way and be separated out, if possible? >> so this process in the federal system has been murky at best. they issued guidance initially that was then revoked. in fact, people were told they were going home and then were told when their families got there to pick them up that they weren't able to go home. department of justice issued new guidance that have five different factors to look at. one of the factors is a risk assessment. in prison you are given a risk assessment every year and you are determined whether you are a high risk, medium or low risk. we know many of the factors on
the risk assessment are proxy for race. they look at whether or not you have been arrested in the passed, highest level of education, employment history. so it is more likely somebody who is caucasian will be a minimum or low risk. those are people they're letting out right now. they're not letting out people who are medium risk, even if they pose no public safety threat. >> reverend al, is this what you are seeing? what can be done about it? >> this is absolutely what we're seeing. as we started in this pursuit with the reform movement with jessica and van sometime ago, it was to say, first of all, you have the moral issue of you have people confined that literally are facing death because they are confined. they cannot do social distancing and they are not a threat. we are talking about nonviolent offenses. they're not a threat to release them and they are not a health
threat to those working in the jails or those that are likewise confined. but to impose on them, many of them there because of an unfair and disproportionate criminal justice system that led to many of them being oversentenced in the first place, to now put these kind of requirements on who qualifies to come out, we need to change the requirements and we need to deal with the federal guidelines on who gets out as long as they are fair and equal and they are low risk, what is the problem? why is it selective? i think when we saw manafort come out it began to raise this issue, and we raised this moral issue from the beginning, mika. i called president trump as well as reverend jesse jackson had called him. both of us had several conversations saying, you can't -- can't leave people incarcerated without testing them and releasing them.
so this is something that we worked on with van and jessica and we will continue to work on because you are literally talking about people's lives at stake, and in the middle of that you have an unfair and unequal guideline system that just is not working. it seems to favor some, and others are treated much differently. >> i mean this is where money talks again because this virus is going to spread fairly across the prison. you would think you would just want to separate anybody that might be able to survive it and is nonviolent. what is, i guess, your recourse, reverend al? who would you turn to do try to make change in the middle of a pandemic with so much chaos for prisoners? >> you have to go to the bureau of prisons and you have to deal with the attorney general. i think public pressure, that reform movement that national network and others are trying to
put a spotlight on, puts a spotlight on how do you justify so many people of color, so many people of backgrounds that clearly come from where they were graded differently on the guidelines than others. how do you justify keeping them in and a paul manafort can walk out? i think this is a moment that puts the spotlight on it. >> absolutely. reverend al sharpton and jessica jackson. thank you both very much for the work you are doing. thanks for being on this morning. up next, what is the best testing strategy to reopen the country? former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb explains his plan. that is just ahead on "morning joe."
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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is just about the top of the hour on this thursday, may 14th. let's dive right in. joining us now, former fald commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. >> hey, doctor. thank you so much for being with us it let's start by talking about the tests that are being used at the white house right now. those are the abbott tests. obviously a lot of people excited about the fact that they rolled out one of the first tests that could provide quick results. now we're finding out that not as accurate. you tweeted about this yesterday. not as accurate as it once was
hoped, but can you just talk about this process? and it is a messy process where fda guidelines, because it is a pandemic, maybe they've been lowered and things have been sped up as far as regulation goes much more than usual and the sort of trade-offs we will be making like this? >> i don't think it is so much a regulatory trade-off as it is a trade-off between different kinds of testing technology. the machine being used at the white house or the imaging machine cleared over the weekend or a similar machine installed in doctor's offices, these are tests typically used to test for strep throat or flu. the virtue is they're cheap and easy to use in the doctor's office. they're highly specific meaning if they say you have strep throat, flu or coronavirus in this case, then you do but they're not that sensitive. meaning a certain number of people who have the tests done
who have the infection, the test will say they don't have the infection. used in the hands of a doctor, in a doctor's office by a provider where a physician may have the suspicion that the patient may have a condition, the doctor knows if they get a negative they might send off a con fir torr confirmation test to be sure. if you get back a negative results, you are going to count on that and say that person is all clear. for that kind of a situation you want a much more sensitive test that's unlikely to miss anyone. >> so we have an nbc colleague who tested negative four times, ended up with the coronavirus anyway. obviously an outbreak in the white house, a few people have gotten it in the white house despite being tested every day. is there a specific test that you think should be used in the white house? >> well, it is a tough call because the white house wants a test with a high through put.
they want a test they can get a quick result because of bringing people in and out of the white house and that's why they like the abbott machine. the other machine with higher sensitivity but is a pretty quick machine is a gene expert. that takes about 45 minutes as opposed to the abbott machine which takes between a 5 and 15 minutes. the sefi gene expert takes longer to give a result but the sensitivity is much higher. that's a better machine if you want to use a point-of-care machine and you don't have a margin in terms of making a mistake in terms of having a result that says you don't have coronavirus when in fact you do. it might be a better machine for that kind of a purpose, but the point is we need to make sure that the technology we are using is fit for purpose. there's different tools that could be used for different purposes. for example, if you are a business owner and you want to do widespread screening in the workplace, it is a situation where you might use high through put pcr or do next generation
sequencing where you can have pool samples. you can have 50 people spit in a tube and then if you get a hit and you find someone has a virus, you test people individually. there's different technologies suited to different purposes and you need to make sure you are using the right tool for the right purpose. >> you testified yesterday in front of jim clyburn's committee on the coronavirus crisis. the hearing was focused on reopening the economy while we still have the coronavirus. so how are we doing right now? what are the recommendations that you gave jim and the rest of the committee, and what do you suggest we do moving into the summer, making summer plans and even as my family did yesterday, not only make summer plans but starting to make plans for the fall and school? what are we looking at? >> yes, it is really hard to tell what the fall is going to look like. you know, it is hard enough to know what the next month is going to look like. right now if you look at what is
happening nationally, even when you back out the statistics from new york you see a declining epidemic nationally. over the last two weeks we have actually started to see a decline in new cases and in hospitalizations, even against the backdrop of more testing. that's the good news. what we're also seeing an epidemic that in certain states is expanding. if you look at states like minnesota, nebraska, missouri, alabama, arizona, wisconsin to some degree, kansas, kentucky, tennessee, texas, you are seeing cases go up in those states. so nationally the trend is in a positive direction but there are still states that are pretty hot and we're still seeing localized outbreaks. that is likely to be the case. this will not be a uniform epidemic. even as the national trends improve we will still see hot spots and there's still a risk that a state can have an outbreak which can lead to a more regional spread. i think as we go into the summer i'm hopeful there will be a seasonal effect here. so as we get into the summer months of july and august the virus will start to dissipate it
it probably won't go away, especially since we are opening against the backdrop of a lot of spread, but i am hopeful there is a seasonal effect there. once we come back in september that will be a new risk, especially as it starts to collide with flu season. it is too early to tell what it is going to look like. i think there will be an attempt to open schools in the fall. this will be something probably made on a local basis, state by state and locality by locality, depending on the background spread in the community and that's probably the right way to make the decisions. >> we are hearing reports, i think it is out of south korea, where there was spread in workers' dorms. is there a possibility that maybe officials split the babies and they allow people to go back to school, but maybe you are far more suspect of sending a bunch of college students or high school students into dorms. >> you know, the colleges right now are starting to contemplate what they're going to do about residential college campuses and i have had some discussions.
they're looking at things like testing everyone before they come back on college campuses. that's only going to provide so much protection because the virus spreads and testing everyone as they enter doesn't mean you won't have an outbreak after the fact. i think south korea reinforces it is at risk communities that face the highest risk of the virus. so people working on production lines, people who work in grocery stores, they're at higher risk of contracting the infection and we need to make sure we have testing at those work sites. that's been a challenge, to make sure we are getting the resources where they're needed the most. >> dr. gottlieb, i want to ask you more about reopening colleges. my first question though is somewhat related. can you explain why it is important to wear a mask and, more specifically, how important is that measure compared to other measures in the list of guidelines being put out by the government, the white house? >> well, the mask is really to protect people from you.
so the cloth mask we talk about, it might provide some partial probation to you as an individual, but what it is really doing is it is cutting down on the risk that someone who has the infection may be asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic and know know they have coronavirus, so it cuts down on their respiratory droplets and ability to transmit. if are wearing an n95 mask, that will afford more protection for you as an individual but there's been a shortage of that equipment so we haven't been able to get those masks out to the people. that hopefully will change in the future and we can make it available to consumers, but the main benefit of the mask is to cut down the risk of transmission from the individual that might be infected to others. it is an important measure. if we can get people to wear mask on a widespread basis it can cut down on transmission. we had one study that showed 50%
reduction in a community that wore masks. it is a simple intervention, wearing a mask. >> absolutely. what does it look like in u.s. colleges? you had said that you think u.s. colleges might be able to welcome students back in the fall. i have got a girl going to uva in the fall so i'm personally -- i mean are these kids going to be asked to wear masks? how is it going to be possible that college kids are going to not mix and spread the coronavirus? >> yes, you know, this is always -- you think of, like, barracks, people coming back in the military and college dorms because you have a lot of people coming from a lot of different communities, mixing, living in close quarters. >> yes. >> coming from communities where there might be more spread so these are high-risk situations. i think really the decisions around this will be made in july and august and are going to depend on what the spread is in the country at that time. you know, again, i happen to believe as we get into july and
august there will be a seasonal effect here so you will start to see spread dissipate a little bit hopefully. hopefully we don't reopen and reignite another large outbreak or epidemic. we get into july and august, there is a seasonal effect and there might be an attempt to reopen college campuses and schools. but if there's outbreaks and widespread transmission of the virus in the fall, you could quickly see decisions reversed and schools closed again. but i think there will be an attempt made to try to do it. colleges might make decisions to try to do more distance learning, try to bring back fewer students. they might make decisions in terms of how they keep students in the dormitory. you have seen some proposals come out to try to separate students more. public schools might make decisions only to have classes two to three days a week and stagger it more so you are not bringing the whole class back at the same time. you might see communities try to make decisions to create social distancing in the context of reopening schools. i think there will be an attempt made to try to reopen in the
fall. >> willie. >> dr. gottlieb, it is willie geist. you and other doctors have said it is all but certain coronavirus will return in the fall. with that in mind i know a lot of school districts were thinking of moving up the school year so they can get school year moved up. do you believe that the coronavirus will be back in our lives in the form it is right now, in the form shutting undown in the fall? if so, what should superintendents and school boards be thinking about as they plan to go back? >> well, this isn't going away. this is probably going to become endemic. you know, hopefully we will get a vaccine but it is something we will have to contend with for a while. if we have good testing in place going into the fall where we're able to detect outbreaks while they're still small, we have good track and trace. we are tracking down people who are sick with the infection,
trying to lies late thisolate te able to prevent large outbreaks, this can be a local endeavor. you might have to shut down a community, to take mitigation steps within a state, but you don't have the national epidemic we had this time around. that's the hope. that will depend on good screening in a community so if there are 30, 40 cases in the community, you can detect at that level before you have 1,000 cases where you have an epidemic that the only thing to do is really shut down the community. hopefully we will go into the fall and be able to detect where this is spreading. i think you will see local school districts close. you will see outbreaks within states and local communities and you will see a rolling mitigation effort. hopefully it doesn't become an national epidemic. the rifb is wh risk is when it collides with the flu season, that becomes a real challenge. we should try to get more flu vaccine into the system, which
we've done. manufacturers have made more vaccine in anticipation of higher demand but get people vaccinated early. >> as you say, so much depending on testing. i want to ask you, dr. gottlieb, about the states of georgia and florida. there's been a lot of focus on those two places, did they reopen too soon. the governors there slowly reopening the economy to some retail business. if you look at it the last couple of weeks, specifically in the last week they've not had an explosion of cases. in fact, the cases have gone down over the last week. what should we be reading into the cases of georgia and florida as other states try to decide when it is safe to go back into the water? >> well, one thing that those states did well was they got their testing up. so when you look at the data from georgia, the positivity rate, the number of people who were positive has come down as testing has gone up. that's a good measure they too. florida did the same thing.
they were able to grow their testing quickly and the data looks good over the past week. i looked as i came on the air and you are seeing hospitalizations not tick up and the number of cases come down and the positivity rate come down even as testing increases. that's a hopeful sign. that said, what we need to watch is hospitalizations and deaths because they're more objective measures whether or not you are having an expanding epidemic. there's a lagging effect on those two indicators. so the time to hospitalization is about eight days. really when you are looking at hospitalizations today, it is telling you what happened eight days ago. time to death is about 18 days, so people who succumb to this infection typically do ten days after they're admitted to the hospital on average. those are lagging indicators. i think we need a couple of weeks of data to know what direction this is going in, but so far the initial data out of georgia and florida look encouraging that they've been able to restart economy without
an up surge in cases. it could be an indication that there is a seasonal factor. we know that activities held outside are lower risk than activities held inside, and so localities should be trying to move things like religious services, gym classes, even restaurants, trying to move those things outside whenever we can. >> doctor, if there's social distancing on an airplane, if the passengers wear masks, if passengers wear gloves, is it safe yet to get back on airplanes or would you recommend that americans wait a little bit longer? >> i think if people have to fly they should fly but they should take, you know, proper precautions like wearing a mask, like making sure they clean their seats and surroundings, practice good hygiene. you know, the overall amount of infection right now is starting to come down nationally, so your
risk right now is probably lower than your risk was in late february, you just didn't know it because we had an expanding epidemic at that point. right now you have an epidemic point that is coming down so it is always lagging. the data that you are looking at is always lagging the direction you are headed in, so things are probably better than you perceive from the data as you come down the curve but there's still risk and people should still be taking precaution. wherever we can do social distancing, we should. a lot of the states haven't lifted the social distancing mandates and stay-at-home orders because they're still in the declining throes of an epidemic. we are trending in the right direction and the risk is getting lower each day as we move in a better direction, but there's still risk. there will continue to be risk. a lot of the things we're doing now, we need to continue to do. if we can continue to take good precautions in our daily lives, that is what ultimately will keep this epidemic from
expanding. the reproduction rate, the r is probably 1.1. you still have an expanding epidemic but better than it was. the doubling time is 45 days when you look at this particular model. it is still doubling,, it is still expanding so we haven't gotten the r below one. we haven't started to contract, we are still expanding, but expanding less than, say, three weeks ago, four weeks ago. >> so, doctor, final question. it is more of a general question, 30,000-foot question. just advice to parents, advice to households. i think a lot of people probably like us when this hit in march, we got our family together. we told them there's a lot about this we don't know, and so obviously we self-isolated, especially us because we have a couple of kids that are at risk, have underlying condition,
diabetes, upper respiratory problems. so we said don't do this, don't do this. i am wondering, two months later what are we finding as far as packages coming to the door, do we still need to wipe them down, going to grocery stores, what sort of risk is there. are we finding when you go out in public, is there data yet that people are catching this virus from takeout food, from packages coming to the door, to all of the things that we were concerned about at the beginning of the pandemic that reminded me a lot of the concerns people had at the beginning of the aids crisis and everybody was wiping everything down, thinking that it might has gonically jump from a server to a person eating through, obviously we found out later that wasn't the case. what have we learned two months in about in pandemic? >> that's a great question, and, you know, unfortunately we don't
have the kind of data we would hope we would have at this point. but it does appear most of the transmissions through respiratory droplets, and certainly when you look at clusters of infection it appears it is through respiratory droplets. contaminated surfaces are playing a role. so if you are using public transport or you are out in public, wash your hands as much as possible. let it dry, because it is a drying a bit of the alcohol that disrupts the virus and kills it. more is through respiratory droplets than stuff on surfaces. it doesn't appear to be spreading through food. probably packages are relatively low risk. remember, as the overall infection rate falls, your risk of contracting it through any one casual interaction goes down as well. your risk of encountering it goes down. you can have always bit more confidence in your interactions but we need to define a new normal where we take more caution in our daily lives we
didn't do before. wear a mask probably. we probably will be wearing masks for a period of time. i think they will become more socially acceptable. cleaning your hands. being careful if you go out socially, watching your circle of friends as well. people are starting to define their circles more narrowly, people that they trust. i think we have to think about these things differently until we get to a place where we know that it is not spreading in our communities that we're staying in and then we can be more relaxed. >> dr. scott gottlieb, thank you for being here. >> thanks a lot. still ahead, the senate intel committee has been making headlines recently. we will talk to its vice-chairman mark warner next on "morning joe."
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welcome back to "morning joe". joining us vice-chairman of the select committee on intelligence, democratic senator mark warner of virginia. senator warner, good morning. it is good to see you. you are a businessman. >> good morning. >> you have been successful in your private life. i just want to ask you about how you are dealing with virginians concerned about their businesses. small businesses in particular. we have, you know, $3 trillion over the course of four bills poured into the system of stimulus, some of that into the paycheck protection program. house democrats now looking for $3 trillion more. how are small businesses in your state who have not gotten their money worried about survival going to deal with the next weeks and months as the economy continues to be shut down? >> well, i think you are seeing enormous uncertainty with this absolutely devastating economic loss. 33 million americans losing their jobs. unemployment levels i'm sure above 20% at this point, and
somewhat a level of confusion. you hear about the numbers, you know, $2.7 trillion that we've appropriated. other $4 trillion in federal reserve lending, and most response is, that's great, but where is my money, where is my check? while i think the ppp program was well-intentioned, i think there were design flaws. i think there was a problem from companies too big receiving money, public companies, and companies with no demonstration of revenue loss. so what i proposed -- and i have folks like bernie sanders who has been supportive of this idea and under the right josh hawley, the republican senator from missouri that has a similar plan that says before we simply refill the bucket of ppp or other unemployment, make we take a pause and do direct paycheck support. i have a program called the paycheck security act. it would pay up to 90% of -- i
am sorry. up to 100% of each salary of $90,000, from small businesses, to medium, to large. we would only go to businesses that absolutely had revenue loss. big businesses would not qualify. we think this approach which reconnects the worker to the employer would, one, give us a quicker startup when we do reopen and, two, would make sure that the 27 million americans who lost their health insurance as well as losing their jobs would be reconnected and keep that health insurance. so we actually -- i know it would be a major transition of all of these problems to something that i think would be simpler and cheaper, all in. but my hope is we will be introducing it next week, and i think you're going to see support across the political spectrum because it might give -- to answer your question directly, it might give that small business owner some
certainty that their payrolls are going to be protected. candidly, what it would also do is we have a whole -- one area we've not talked about, our mid level businesses, those businesses, 500 to a few thousand, not big enough to get to the public markets, too big to qualify for ppp, they've gotten nothing so far. >> yes, this public fight we've seen at top of the federal government between dr. fauci who testified he is worried about going back too soon in terms of reopening businesses and going back to school an donald trump, the president, rebutting him yesterday and saying he disagreed with that view of things. that obviously comes down to the ground level in places like richmond and towns all over the state of virginia. so what do you say? where do you come down on that debate when a small business owner comes to you and says, i understand the public health risk but the alternative here is my business closes, everybody i employ loses their jobs and i don't have food on the table in my house. what do you say to the business owners who are desperate right
now? >> i say that is a very real problem that is playing out right now. what i wish we'd have is less sniping at the top and more data, more data in terms of not only rate of infection. we get data, pretty good data on hospitalizations. we don't have it year over year comparisons, but i think all of us would agree -- and i say this, who wants to open the economy responsibly, we need more testing, testing, testing. one of the things that i have urged the administration, begged the vice president is why can't we create a master database that has by jurisdiction the amount of testing capacity, what type of tests, whether they are swab tests or whether they are the blood tests that measure your antibodies, why can't we figure out what is in the fda pipeline of being approved? if we had that kind of transparency around testing -- remember, every testing component has to have some level
of fda approval. so we have that knowledge. it is knowable. that would be helpful to policymakers. it would be helpful to the small business person if she thoughts, well, we might be able to triple test next week because we knew something new is coming online. the administration refused to do that. i started working with johns hopkins university who got a great brand name. they have created the definitive site for the virus. my hope is they will create the definitive site for testing. that would be helpful in terms of the economy. >> it is amazing states are having to hustle on the side to figure out their own testing because there's no program. mike barnacle is here with a question for you. mike. >> senator, are you surprised in the united states of america we are so inat quad in terms of what we're combatting. it seems we are so inadequate.
does it surprise you in this country in this day and age? >> mike, it shocks me. it shocks me when we look at the fact that is correct you know, that united states has roughly i think 3% to 4% of the world's population yet we have a third of the cases world wild. it shocks me that in this kind of international crisis what normally would happen -- and we think about the 2008 fiscal crisis, 9/11 or even earlier, outbreaks like ebola. it has always been america that's been coordinating the world's response. for the most part we seem totally absent from the leadership roll. i believe it has been a national embarrassment where the administration failed to use the powers this congress gave them -- this president who likes power -- to take control of the distribution and supply of ppe, the failure to take control and distribution of our testing
capability. we are seeing the kind of almost dog-eat-dog competition between hospitals and states. it is obscene, both driving up the cost of ppe and not getting the testing out to the right folks. unless we see a better command and control position take place, when we get to a vaccination we could have exactly the same crisis. if we are not right now acquiring a supply chain on things like glass vials and other tools necessary when we get a have of vaccination to distribute fairly across the country, shame on all of us. >> so in this crisis we are receiving an inordinate anounmo of mixed messages from the white house as compared to dr. gottlieb who we just had on the air, who is highly credible. in one message it seems the president is desperately trying to blame the virus on a perhaps
planned virus out of china, out of wuhan, hoout of a library. you are on the intelligence committee. have you seen any evidence of where in vaccine came through? >> it come from a laboratory intentionally in wuhan? >> mike, we have constantly pressed the intelligence community. we started hearing in january about this. candidly, most of the intelligence at that point was not that much different than what was appearing in the -- in the open press and open sources. but clearly the vaccine -- i'm sorry, the virus originated bring china, and china has been very opaque about letting other international scientists in. but we have actualsed the -- ma
chairman bure and i wrote a letter to all of the leaders of the intelligence community when we heard the president of the united states in one of his press conferences make statements, and alluding to the fact he has some level of intelligence that would indicate it may have originated from a lab or may have escaped from a lab. we then heard the secretary of state make similar comments. as a member of the so-called gang of eight, the group that's supposed to have privy to even the most stop secret information, i have not seen any evidence of that, and the champ and i in a bipartisan way made that request and we're waiting for a response from the intel community. >> senator mark warner, thank you very much. thank you for coming on this morning. the labor department just released the latest numbers on jobless claims. nearly 3 million americans filed for unemployment benefits last week. that brings the total of requests since the pandemic to
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1619 project in an attempt to reframe america's history through the lens of slavery. the name marks the arrival of the first enslaved people brought from africa to the then-virginia colony. the sweeping project analyzed how slavery shaped american political, social and economic institutions. its authors sought to place the consequences of slavery and the contributions of black americans at the very center of our national narrative. demand for the issue was intense with new yorkers lining up on the street to obtain copies. it was one of the most red piec -- read pieces of journalism produced by the times the entire year. the project grew to include a special section in the paper, a live event series, podcasts, books and an ad that ran during the academy awards. but a backlash ensued.
princeton historian generally considered to be a liberal criticized its cynicism and began circulating a letter objecting to the project. four leading scholars in their field, james mcpherson, gordon wood, james oakes signed on. a letter was sent to "the times" which was printed. they wrote, we are dismayed at some of the factual errors in the project and the closed process behind it flts these errors which concern major events cannot be described as enteration or framing. they are matters of verifiable fact, which are the foundation of both honest scholarship and honest journalism. they suggest a displacement of historical understanding by ideology. dismissal of objections on racial grounds that they are the
objection of only white historians has affirmed that displacement. they labeled other material as misleading and asked "the times" to issue prominent corrections of the errors and distortions presented in the 1619 project. the paper responded, writing in part, we are familiar with the objections of the letter writers as four of them have been interviewed in recent months by the world socialist website. we disagree with their claim that our project contains significant factual errors and is driven by ideology rather than historical understanding. while we welcome criticism, we don't believe that the request for corrections to the 1619 project is warranted. then in february, a counterproject emerged. the 1776 project was launched by robert woodson, a black conservative and long-time community activist in washington. woodson said the project intended to counter what he
called the anti-america propaganda of "the times" endeavor. what is troubling about 1619 is that it defines america as being incurably racist, he said. it insists that all white people are beneficiaries of privilege and victimizers and all blacks are victims. woodson recruited a number of leading thought leaders including glen lowery, harold swain, jock mcquarter, jason hill and wilfred riley to write essays that provide an aspirational and inspirational counter-narrative to "the times". for instance in an essay entitled "we cannot allow 1619 to dumb down america in the name of crusade," john mcquarter, an associate professor at columbia university writes, "the new york times" "1619 project" is founded on empirical sand. the fundamental claim that the revolutionary war was fought to
preserve slavery simply does not correspond with the facts. so we leave it there. we will bring in our guests. joining us for this conversation, we have the reporter for "the new york times" magazine, nikole hannah-jones joining us now. also with us for the discussion, professor of history at northwestern university lesley ann harris. she wrote an opinion piece for polite k "politico" outlining one part of the "1619 project" she disagrees with us. we also have with us columnist clarence page. he contributed to the "1776" website with a piece. eddie claude jr. rounds out this incredible panel. >> you know it is an important
panel if eddie is here. first of all, let me just say this has been -- and we have been trying to book this now for two months, and this has been the singular most difficult panel to book, only because people on both sides didn't want to come on to talk about it. so we really appreciate you four coming here today and having this really important discussion. nicole, first of all on the pulitzer prize. secondly, thank you for starting a debate that i think is going to be going on for quite sometime. how do you respond to your critics who suggest that this is more driven by ideology than historical facts? >> well, let me start by saying i think that intro kind of super up where we are, which was there was a great deal of time spent on the detractors and almost no
time in the intro spent on the historians who have stood behind the project. this project states explicitly the ideology. we are a journalistic organization and we said we were going to do a project that was looking at the legacy of slavery and placing slavery at the center of the narrative, and that's what we did. it is not that we were hiding anything. i find the backlash in some ways unsurprising and in some ways surprising. for instance, you know, with respect to mr. page when one suggests that the "1619 project" is a project about black victimization and not patriotism, it makes me wonder if mr. page read the project or my essay because my essay is about how black people despite undergoing legal apartheid, segregated schooling and housing, segregated military, believed fervently in the
founding ideas and have fought generation after generation to make those ideals true. in fact, had a faith in a country that didn't treat us as citizens and expanded democracy for all americans. i don't think it is victimization at all. in fact, i think it is one of the most patriotic papers one could read. >> clarence page is here. how do you respond? >> thank you very much. i want to say first of all i have always said history is for arguing. people say that history is written by the winners, that is also true. the fact is i was delighted to see "the new york times" make this big of a commitment, first of all, to history. as you mention earlier, people were lining up to get copies of this which tells me a lot about the hunger out there, not just limited to black folks, the hunger for more of a complete picture of american history. but my word for my reaction to this series was disappointment.
i was disappointed that it didn't go enough beyond victimization into our overcoming. we have always had a struggle in this country for black liberation, and it cuts both ways. nikole is right about the achievement in this chronicle. but a lot could be said about the achievement of black and white folks working together. i think one of the biggest objections to the series was in her introduction where she essentially says that slavery was -- well, the american revolution was fought to preserve slavery, that that's why the colonies broke away. that's a simplistic view that needs arguing and it is being argued now as well as the questions that were referred to. >> nikole, how do you respond to
that? >> i understand, one, let me just say if you read what i say in the essay i say that one of the reasons that colonists and now we clarified some colonists decided to join the revolution is to preserve slavery. we have documentation of colonists in south of south carolina, georgia, who were reluctant to join if revolution who did so out of fears of what britain might do around the issue of slavery. you can agree or disagree. i understand it is a controversial claim, but it was a 40,000 word project, ten essays, 25 pieces of fiction written in the piece, an entire special section of five to six historians helped write for the project. dozens of historians fact-checked for the project. yes, history about arguing. i did not just make up that claim out of thin air and sit down at my computer one day and say, "let me make up something about the american revolution." whether or not historians want to agree with that and someone to argue with that, that is the
nature of historiography. the attempt to discredit the project is what has been surprising. >> eddie, you and i have talked a good bit about balancing the ideas of the founding as far as talking about madisonian checks and balances that we hope keep donald trump in check, and we are seeing it unfold in the flynn case and the judiciary checking the worst instincts of the justice department. how do we synthesize it all from slave holders and, in fact, majority of the early presidents were slave holders, is it possible for us to separate the abominable personal behavior that they exhibited at the time
with some of the high ideas that we still refer to in checking people who would want to run over constitutional norms and constitutional guarantees that have actually gotten us to where we are today? >> i think the question, joe, that we would have to worry or the point we would have to worry is your choice of the verb "separate." we don't separate our -- from the fact that we can, in fact, be virtuous for some of us who are christian, right. we are deeply flawed. part of understanding the human endeavor is to understand those contradictions that make us who we are. i think what nikole and the folks did with "the 1619 project" was initiate something that is very important, and that is that we have to in some ways tell a different story about who we are as americans, to tell a story that brings into views our
contradictions as well as our aspirations. we are not simply the shining city on a hill, we are not simply the redeemer nation. we are a country determined by the brutality of slavery, the ugliness of what happened uglin how, in fact, we have tried in so many ways through a struggle from below to overcome that. in some ways, i'm thinking of the second chapter of revelations verse 5. we have to do our first works over. and that requires telling a broader story to account for who we are. america, joe is not a white nation. and we have to tell a story that reflects that fact. >> yeah, we certainly do. by the way, elijah cummings might call you a counterfeit mississippi preacher. we love you preaching. so let's go to northwestern university, professor leslie harris. you made headlines earlier this year when you talked about
fact-checking the project and then were concerned a lot of your fact-checking items were ignored which, of course, seems to be central to the controversy of where we are now. talk about those concerns and talk about the project generally. >> first, i want to say that the 1619 project is rhetorically brilliant. it's historically brilliant. it does what the best historians want to do which is to bring this history to the general public. i think that nicole hannah jones' essay is excellent and it reflects what many african-americans experience in this country, that we are in a country that's full of ideals, that's full of possibility and yet we have been locked out of it. and so my concern was that i knew the critique would focus on the small errors, and that is
exactly what happened, as i say in my essay. what i try to do was show where i thought there was an error, and i had expressed that. and i knew that people would read the essay if i put that out there like that. but the greater problem for me and this was not nicole's fault, this was the historical profession's fault. even as the historical profession began to address issues of slavery, there are those who ignored the history of slavery and history of african-americans and their contribution to democracy, to our country, to the wealth of this country, the ideas of this country. and the two critics that i focused on in particular, gordon wood and sean wallence were the people in the '70s, '80s and '90s had not taken seriously how slavery affected our founding. most of our founding fathers owned slaves or were connected
to the slave trade. that this country was rooted in the wealth created by slave labor. that, to me, is the bigger problem. and i really wanted people to grapple with that as eddie has said and as nicole has demonstrated. i couldn't agree more with nicole that there is so much in the 1619 project magazine that's been overlooked because of the narrow focus on what is almost one sentence in that opening essay and that is really disappointing to me. it's disappointing to those in the historical profession. i would say very few in the historical profession who focused on the 1619 project in that way. most have taken it up as a serious intervention into our public history and something that we will continue to debate and discuss for many years from now. >> you know, nicole, there's been much written about abraham lincoln and the criticisms of abraham lincoln who we all grow up and learn about the
emancipation proclamation and the words lincoln freed the slaves rolls off at least used to roll off the tongues of all -- most students. but i just recently saw frederick douglass' -- i heard frederick douglass' words read on the death of abraham lincoln. and he talked about how, from the eyes of a lot of black people, abraham lincoln was too cautious, was white person's slain hero. didn't go fast enough, but then fr frederick douglass went on to say, for his time, historically, he was nothing short of a liberator. he did great things. and isn't that the balance that we're having to sdrik, not just
here but as we look back to abraham lincoln's time and look back to the time of this nation's founding. how do we balance the time of abraham lincoln specifically? was abraham lincoln a hero? was he a liberator of the slaves or was he too cautious? was he too fearful of the general population? >> i mean, i'm not a historian. i am a journalist, but this is what i will say. what the project attempts to do is complicate the narrative. my daughter, my 10-year-old daughter asks me all the time. was this person good or was this person bad? and i tell her, where are these people who are one or the other. that people are capable of holding contradictory views. they are capable of doing both amazing things and things that are really devastating. and abraham lincoln was a man. i think -- and he was a man of his time.
so we have defied our founders and abraham lincoln and i was not saying that abraham lincoln did no good. clearly he did and clearly his views on black americans were evolving right before his death. that's one of the reasons he was assassina assassinated. but we have to have a more complicated narrative because the narrative has been extremely harmful to black americans. we're told we're responsible for the conditions we live in. we're told these stories of these great men who did horrible things to us and that means our stories are invisible. we are part of the story and that's all that this project was trying to do was turn the lens a little bit to focus on something that is -- a story that's truly been marginalized but that really is central. yes, i think abraham lincoln was changing and i think that abraham lincoln who started the civil war or -- not started the civil war but at the onset of the civil war was a different abraham lincoln at the end and that's what this project is
trying to uncover is that complexity. >> and i love that. trying to add to a complexity. by the way, your daughter sounds like my young children. i hate those questions. are they good or bad? it's not that -- >> things can be -- >> for a lot of us, the most fascinating thing about abraham lincoln for me, if you read, for instance, sandberg's biography on lincoln, you have lincoln wringing his hands at the beginning of the war saying, you know what if preserving the union requires slavery in the south, i'll do that. if preserving the union means abolition of slavery all across the country, i will do that. i'm here to abolish -- to preserve the union. but through the war and you always get a sense that lincoln's writing this volatile wave and people don't realize that in new york, there were
huge protests against the civil war. but you saw his movement through the war. just violent. and just like lbj was an out and out segregationist, yet what he did, nothing short of politically. yet they are complex and we have -- how do we accept them as a whole, their entire legacy as we teach our children going into the next generation whether abraham lincoln was a good man or bad man, lbj, james madison, all these people. >> well, joe, thank you for calling on me for that question because my newspaper endorsed abraham lincoln. we also were the big abolitionist paper in town. i don't personally remember it, joe, but that legacy was a very strong one. and abraham lincoln was -- his
main goal was to save the union as you referred to and was ready to do anything in order to do that. it was frederick douglass was a very important figure in persuading lincoln to stop at nothing short of the right to vote, the liberation of the slaves, et cetera. and that -- in three fascinating visits between the two of them. he helped to persuade lincoln to write that emancipation proclamation. it did not apply to the states that did not secedy isecede fro union. maryland and virginia? i didn't even hear about frederick douglass, joe, until i was in college, and i had a wonderful school system back in middletown, ohio, but the only black folks i learned about were booker t. washington and george washington carver. and frederick douglass was a
great journalist and role model as well and the relationship is emblem attic of the way blacks and whites worked together in this country to end slavery. >> so we have to continue this conversation, but we thank you for now. reporter for "the new york times" magazine, nikolle hannah-jones, leslie harris, professor eddie glaude jr. and clarence page. thank you all. >> and nikole, congratulations on the pulitzer and thank you so much for having this debate and coming on and talking about this. and actually starting a much bigger debate than i think is going to allow us to debate this in the open instead of having people like all the people who were afraid to come on this show, afraid to speak up in college classes. afraid to speak up in high school classes. afraid to speak up on this really important topic. thank you, and congratulations. >> that does