tv Morning Joe MSNBC August 11, 2020 3:00am-6:00am PDT
energize young progressives without tying joe biden to her agenda, which could be weaponized against him by president trump. she will have a prime time speaking slot, that will help with fund-raising but it's two days before joe biden will speak. and i think that's strategic. >> great to see you this morning. we'll be reading axios in just a little bit. that does it for me on this tuesday morning, i'm yasmin vossoughian. "morning joe" starts right now. >> if we didn't close up our country we would have had 1.5 or 2 million people already dead. we've called it right now we don't have to close it, we understood the disease. nobody understood it because nobody has seen anything like this. the closest thing is in 1917, they say, right, the great -- the great pandemic. certainly was a terrible thing
where they lost anywhere from 50 to 100 million people. probably end of the second world war all the soldiers were sick. that was a terrible situation. >> war's over, man, dropped the big one. >> what? over? did you say over? nothing is over until we decide it is! what sit over when the germans bombed pearl harbor? hell no? >> germans? >> forget it. >> i tell you what, he probably would be doing a better job right now than the current occupant of the white house. mika, you know, this is -- there are just not words -- >> so sad. >> -- first of all, he hasn't yet figured out the year for the worst pandemic in modern world history. he says it wrong all the time.
i don't know if he doesn't have any staff members that can come up and tell him that it was 1918 and 1919, sir, since he likes people to say sir. this reminds me of joseph stalin who nobody on his staff had the courage to tell him, after they had gone into the netherlands, he said let's invade holland next. nobody had the courage to tell stalin. obviously nobody has the courage to tell donald trump that sleepy, don, it wasn't 1917. it was 1918 and 1919. and mika, i just have to say, point of personal privilege here. >> point of person privilege. okay. >> donald trump always mocked jeff sessions' law degree. he mocked the university of alabama. he always mocked people with
southern accents from alabama and says that he wished that he would have gotten somebody as attorney general that went to a better school than alabama. let me just say, we in alabama may not be as flashy as some of you ivy league boys, but we at least know the difference between world war i and world war ii, don. sleepy don. wake up and read some history. is that not fascinating, mika, he really does. he's ignorant of history and has been ignorant of history, of course, his entire life. he's been ignorant of government of diplomacy, and we have seen the effects of it now for over 3 1/2 years. and there are still people that want to elect him for another four years. so there you go. >> and that ignorance of history is so dangerous. i remember it was right after he
was elected jared kushner was quoted as saying, i think as he was giving a -- talking to a group of people in the white house, we don't care about history. i remember that sticking out as something that seemed obvious. they don't seem to follow any of the rules of history, learning from the past. we'll talk about this more -- >> but that's a great point. that's a great point. because i remember talking to them -- i remember other people going and talking to them, and jared's opinion and donald trump's opinion was, we don't need to know history because -- >> yeah, don't tell us. >> -- look what happened in the past. they were saying they didn't need to know about middle east history. tried to talk to jared about 1967 boundaries, about the '73 war. about camp david.
i mean, just about all of it. and the attitude remained. i don't need to know about history. stop talking about what's been done in the past because everybody failed. we have a new way to do it, and this has been one of the great failures of this administration, at least diplomatically, because there's so many other failures, but diplomatically, they were ignorant enough -- nay, they were stupid enough to believe that the world began on january the 20th, 2017, and didn't realize they were part of a 240-year history where policies build upon other policies. and you improve upon other work that's been done over 240 years. best example of that, harry truman starts, actually, having to do things in 1947 to stop soviet expansionism. and he creates the doctrine that
nine presidents follow, whether they're republicans or democrats, liberals, moderates or conservatives. they understand the truman doctrine, they understand that leaning on nato. they understand all the things put in place were put in place for a reason. and there was this string of continuity that ran through nine presidencies and it caused the berlin wall to collapse. and it caused the united states to prevail over the soviet union in the cold war. and it created -- and this is what donald trump will never understand -- it created the american century. it laid the ground work for a foreign policy construct that made possible not only growth in europe and growth in japan and growth across the planet, but
exponential growth in america. that's the stupidity of his view in this american first view. oh, no. nato may get something out of this. oh no we can't do a trade deal with the eu, they may -- hey, hey, donald, sleepy don, we benefit more from all of those jobs. look our gdp. look at the growth of our country economically since 1945. we are the country that consistently rises exponentially. and we have done that because we've had a system in place. if you had listened to james mattis when he tried to explain the world to you since 1945, and
you got up and yelled instead because you had your alternative reality and it just didn't fit with that, we know you like putin, we don't know why -- i got to say, that's got to be one of the most fascinating things years from now when we figure out why you act the way you do towards vladimir putin, it's really sort of shameful, donald. you should be ashamed of yourself. but when we find out, it's going to be fascinating. but if you just listened to what general mattis said, what your other advisers were trying to tell you about the world since 1945, we'd be in a much better place right now. but no, you had your own ideas. you had your own ideas about north korea. you told us we never had to worry about north korea again. in 2018 you said sleep well tonight you never have to worry. because you were stupid enough
to believe you could go there and talk to a communist that put people through paper shredders. you were stupid enough to believe you could play apprentice with him. and guess what you got used. and guess what, america is in in more danger from north korea than ever before. you thought you could invite the chinese over to mar-a-lago and say this is good dessert, have you ever had dessert this good? the cake was fabulous, president xi and you thought somehow you were going to win over president xi? you followed him around like a little puppy dog. you even said on january 24th of this year, the american people -- you're thinking of that cake still. you're still thinking of that cake, and thinking that's the greatest cake i ever had. you said on january 24th in a
tweet, i don't know if you remember this because you don't even remember the difference between world war i and world war ii, but you said, the american people would like to thank president xi, he's done such a fantastic job. and we really are grateful that he's been so transparent. you said that on january 24th. two days after you said the coronavirus was one person coming in from china and it was going to go away. but how could you have known, right? it was early. you only had everybody in your administration warning you about th this. but you don't listen to them. maybe you should have listened to joe biden who at the same time you're praising president xi actually wrote an op-ed. that's the thing, donald, you create your alternative realities the rest of us live in the real world. we can look on our google
machines and see that joe biden wrote an op-ed in january and that op-ed said, mr. president we're not ready for this pandemic. we're not ready for this pandemic. you need to listen to your doctors and you need to listen to your scientists and you need to follow their advice or we are in trouble. you didn't do it. >> all right. >> you didn't do it. you couldn't figure out testing. you couldn't figure out hydroxychloroquine. you couldn't figure out bleach and disinfectants. you can't even remember what year the first pandemic was, donald. and you can't figure out what people don't like you, that was your comment, why don't people like the job i'm doing? because you're not doing the job. and you're historically ignorant. and you're making no efforts and you made no efforts over the
past three and a half years to learn, to improve and to save american lives. and over 155,000 americans are dead now, donald. 155,000 americans. it is time for you, in these closing months, to start doing your job and saving americans' lives. mika, what do we have on tap for today's show? >> the other option is he could leave. it would be better. good morning, everyone, hello. great job sweetie. welcome to "morning joe," it is tuesdaying with august 11th. with that we have white house reporter jonathan lemire. columnist for "the washington post" eugene robinson. and contributor to time magazine and msnbc political analyst, elise jordan. great to have you all on board.
thank you, joe. that's a great backdrop to this. several governors are expressing their outrage this morning over the lack of clear directives from president trump's executive orders aimed at providing coronavirus relief. most notably they've taken issue with the states being responsible for 25% of the unemployment measure as tax revenues plummet and costs continue to increase. democratic governor andrew cuomo of new york estimates it would cost his state $4 billion by the end of the year said it would be look handing a drowning man an anchor. a spokesman for republican governor mike dewine said yesterday ohio has no plans to spend the additional $100 per unemployed american that trump's orders demands.
the national governors' association which has requested 500 billion in unrestricted state aid is calling for a cohesive national strategy to address the economic fallout. the group chaired by governor cuomo and vice chaired by asa hutchinson of arkansas called on congress to come up with a workable solution. we are in the middle of a pandemic. we are now in the phase that experts are calling depression. we need to help the american people. this doesn't seem to need to be so hard, joe. >> but the thing is, again, it was all show biz. as john lennon sang, nobody loves you when you're down-and-out. it's show biz. jonathan lemire he knew he couldn't get what he needed from
democrats. he knew he wasn't going to get the negotiations going in the direction he was going to go in. so as i reported yesterday he made these announcements that were pretty remarkable achievement, they were both unconstitutional and meaningless at the same time. as we move forward and speaking of alternative realities, that the president lied through his teeth about democrats wanting to come back to the table. it was like we didn't call him. like when china called him last summer, no they didn't. he lies, he makes things up. so now that we find ourselves in that position, jonathan lemire, what's going to happen today with negotiations and also negotiations going forward through the week with so many americans suffering? >> joe, you're right. there seems to be a lot less to these executive actions, not
even executive orders, than the white house initially framed. this was a political move in many ways. this was the president trying to stay on the sidelines for the first few weeks of the negotiations trying to insert himself in the center of it. to make himself a man of decisive action, breaking through the washington gridlock. it follows the pattern in the stretch run of this year, three months until the election, really betting big on himself. he's been one who's reluctant to cede the spotlight. he's seen himself as his best press secretary, not just trying to win a news cycle but a moment. and we have seen him now, once again, push himself forward alone for the daily coronavirus task force briefing thinking that is his best opportunity to show a somewhat somber approach to the crisis, as well as replace the fact he can't have
any sort of campaign rallies. this is his outlet to address his supporters, soak up media attention. he and his team are betting big on the debates later this fall, thinking that's his best chance to turn around things against joe biden. we have seen him try to promote his convention speech which he is now floating at the white house or gettysburg, which has drawn condemnation -- >> why did it draw condemnation from places other than it would be a breech of eith you cai oat? both places would be a breach of ethics. we have found this administration doesn't pay attention to the hatch act, and now it doesn't totally apply to
the president, there's some precedence to using the white house as a backdrop for political events but nothing as grand as the acceptance speech. and gettysburg being a sacred place, a cemetery, and a controversial choice for a president who has spent a lot of time and energy in the recent weeks and months defending confederate generals, statues, and monuments. back to the executive actions. there's nothing schedule. the white house is sending signals that's what they're saying the president is trying to get across, trying to restart talks. they want democrats to come to the table, republicans to do the same. there's a gap of well over
$1 trillion between the two. and right now the president is trying to just sort of step into almost a public relations move with governors, of course, upset about what he has laid out before them. >> all right. well, we can all see some of the results of all this in new polling from morning consults showing joe biden leading president trump in every gender and age groups. biden holds a lead of 8 points, 51% to 43%. among women biden is up 53 to 48%. now when looking at the age breakdown, biden leads among voters under age 34, 57% to 34%. among ages 35 to 44, biden bests the president again 50 to 42. age 45 to 64, biden up 49 to 45.
above age 65, biden leads 49% to the president's 46%. this won't bode well for trump, joe. i envision and predict and usually get a vision of him reacting in some extreme, horrific way with his behavior. >> well, we'll see what's happening. right now it looks like he's trying to undermine the post office's ability to effectively handle the mail-in voting and the absentee ballot voting coming in. but looking at the poll numbers, obviously we heard time and again, we don't know if it's correct or not, that donald trump is going to -- or joe biden is going to win the popular vote but it won't matter because it's going to come down to -- breakdown state by state by state. but if you look at the demographic breakdowns and you have a growing gender gap and as
we've seen in polls over the past couple weeks, just an incredible, sizable lead, especially in the suburbs among women. talk about what you see in those polls. >> well, look, joe biden is ahead in every age group, including the over 65s. and if the gap is eight points nationally, it is highly unlikely doesn't say it, it is like trying to thread a rope to the eye of a needle to how donald trump wins the electoral college this time with numbers like this. this is a big gap. it should be point out this is a bigger and more consistent gap between biden and trump than we ever saw four years ago between clinton and donald trump, where the polls were much closer.
this is -- these numbers are different. they simply are different. and these are not the kinds of numbers where you manage to somehow eke out 270 electoral votes by plucking off, wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. trump is behind in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania, he's also behind in florida, behind in arizona, behind in states that he absolutely has to win to have any chance of being re-elected. >> elise, it highlights the selection which "the washington post" is calling imminent, the selection of joe biden's vice presidential selection. any thoughts on what he should do? do you think he should play it safe? should he take a chance and go outside, you know, kamala harris, i guess, is expected to be the safest choice for him
right now. but is there a chance he moves beyond that? should he move beyond that or just keep it in between the guardrails? play it safe? >> joe i'm so impressed with the field of women who could potentially be this vp pick. and i don't see how joe biden can really make a mistake here. i think that leans towards a safe choice at this stage in the game, someone who's been vetted, goes in line with joe biden and how he operates. i doubt we'll see something radical that really shakes up the conversation and the race, which right now frankly joe biden doesn't need. he needs attention to still be focused on donald trump and his short comings leading us through the coronavirus pandemic. you look at the polling numbers and that's really what it's coming down to for these voters who are not coming out for
donald trump and saying their support to pollsters when they're contacted. it's all about the coronavirus pandemic and donald trump's handling of it. that is the main issue for voters in november. >> still ahead on "morning joe," an exclusive first look at the headliner set to address next week's democratic national convention. and the "new york times" reports that joe biden could announce his running mate as soon as today as pressure mounts for him to pick a black woman to be his vice president. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪
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>> that's joe biden's new ad hitting president trump for his response to the coronavirus pandemic. that comes just ahead of next week's democratic national convention and "morning joe" is getting a first look at the headliners. monday's lineup includes bernie sanders and katherine cortez mas row, andrew cuomo and gretchen whitm whitmer. former republican governor john kasich. senators doug jones and amy klobuchar. and former first lady michelle obama. tuesday we hear from sally yates, chuck schumer, john kerry, alexandria ocasio-cortez, lisa blunt rochester, bill clinton and dr. jill biden. wednesday's headliners are,
nancy pelosi, among many others. so it's going to be -- elizabeth warren is going to be there. gabby gifford barack obama. look at thursday, cory booker, mayor keisha lance bottoms. kamala harris, the biden family and joe biden himself. it'll be fun. it'll be great to watch. good to hear from everybody. restrictions and a curfew in chicago -- we're going to stop here. go ahead, joe. what do you think of the speakers? >> i think the speaker lineup looks interesting. going to be fantastic. of course, you know, conventions even in the best of years when human beings could show up at conventions don't necessarily sway things. the democratic convention in 2016 i think most people considered, at least that weren't on the far left or the
far right, run extraordinarily well with great speakers, moving speeches. the end didn't have a huge impact. but this will be good. i think americans will be tuning in. a lot of americans will be tuning in for both of the conventions. but back to the ad. it's interesting -- >> powerful. >> -- mika, i was thinking of asking gene robinson if he wanted to go on a road trip with me, kind of maybe bring a video camera, do a buddy movie, a documentary, gene and joe's excellent adventure. we could go to canada. then i realized -- >> we can't, joe. >> they don't want our types in p canada. americans not allowed there. >> i know. >> but then we were talking, gene, about getting on a boat and going to the bahamas because the bahamas lets any american in with money. they'd even let me in. and then, gene, we can't even go
to the bahamas. our money's not welcome there. seriously. did you ever think, gene, in all of your years that the united states of america would be in such a poor condition, a third world condition when it came to health care and the government's handling of a pandemic that we wouldn't be able to go to other countries? the bahamas would put up a do not enter sign. that canada -- canada, they won't even let americans in. we can't get out of the country, joe. >> no. >> it -- it is -- i never -- to answer your question, never in my life, in my wildest imagination did i think we could
conceivably be in this position. and we don't have to be. it didn't have to be this way. we could have done what other developed countries did. we could have properly shutdown the economy, driven the infection rate very low and by now we would be cautiously reopening and we'd have a caseload that was similar to those of other -- of the rest of the world, basically, because we can't go anywhere. and donald trump didn't do that, because he thought the virus was a hoax or he didn't understand it or reconfused world war 1 and world war ii and 1917. whatever. it's just appalling and shocking really that we're in this position. but this is where we are. we are pyorrheas. we are the s-hole country
that -- >> yeah. >> -- nobody wants people from. that's us now. >> yeah. it's amazing. donald trump's ignorance of history. donald trump's ignorance of medicine. donald trump's ignorance of epidemiology. donald trump's refusal to listen to his experts have put us in this position. led him to tell cnbc on january 22nd, that it was one person from china, that it was going away. led him to tell a group in michigan a month later, at the end of february, a full month of joe biden said we're not ready for the pandemic, donald trump you better listen to your medical doctors, you better listen to your scientists, a month later it was donald trump saying at the end of february, it's only 15 people, soon it's going to be down to none. in march he was saying it was going to be going away in april. in april he was -- is that when
he was telling people use disinfectants? he kept saying, it's almost gone. don't worry about it. we're going to get back to work by easter, by memorial day. we're going to reopen by this. it's going away, believe me. it's not coming back in the fall. well, donald trump was right in that respect, jonathan lemire. it's not coming back in the fall, because it never went away in the summer like he predicted. it's still here. and it's still going to be here in the fall and as we move towards reopening schools, where you want to send your kids to school and i want to send my kids to school, we can't do that because the infection is sweeping across america still and guess what, surprise of all surprises, donald trump saying that children don't really get infected, that was a lie too. and we're finding out more every day just how much of a lie that was. and because of this horrific
leadership, we are completely banned from going to countries like canada. to even going over to the bahamas. i mean, what's the white house response to that, jonathan, a president that was bragging about shutting down travel from china when he let 400,000 people in from china from the start of the pandemic because at the end of the day, his so-called ban was not a ban at all. or if it was, it was way too late. so what's donald trump, the great ban travel leader, what's he saying about the fact that americans are being banned from going to other places across the world because he's done such a lousy job in america. >> the list of countries americans can travel is short, i think an teague wau is one of them. you can gene can go, maybe i'll join you at some point. the president is sticking to his talking points.
sticking to somewhat nonsensical arguments about testing and mortality rates, things that aren't true. obviously it's a white house that's still trugstruggled to g their hands around the virus, seen it rip through the sun belt and encroaching rapidly through other parts of the country. the midwest is looming as a potential hot spot. officials said if it can't be clamped down in the next week or two, the midwest sites could be the next outbreak. on schools, the president was pressed on the claim that children were immune to this and he stuck to it saying they're largely immune, not transporting the virus. that's not true, it seems children not as impacted as adults but still impacted. and as part of the executive orders, there's still no funding for schools. despite the fact the president took up yesterday the crusade for college football and sports
over the ability for students to be safely in school this fall. >> president trump continues to spread misinformation about children and the coronavirus. he's out and out lying. >> that's actually -- that's actually the word. i think lying is actually a more accurate way to put it instead of misinformation. yeah, he is out and out lying, as he has from the beginning of this pandemic. he's continuing to lie about hydroxychloroquine. continuing to lie despite the fact his own fda said don't take it. it's dangerous. trump's fda said that. and admiral brett giroir, who's in charge, in charge, he's like the czar of testing said let's move beyond hydroxychloroquine. it doesn't work. dr. scott gotlieb said the same thing. and yet you've got these quacks, you've got these cranks, you've
got these fphonies, still going around i guess for financial reasons, talking about anecdotal evidence where the overwhelming weight of science says hydroxychloroquine is not the drug to take for covid-19. it's really shocking. but it's one more example of these alternative facts we've been talking about that autocrats use, for whatever reason. and donald trump is using a pandemic and spreading misinformation in a pandemic. and guess what that misinformation and the lies in the pandemic do, mika? they kill people. >> kill people. >> and that's what's happened. >> there you go. that's what i was going to say, his lies are going to lead to the deaths. and i could say, to be a good journalists, scientists say. but we understand the basic science. we can do the math. follow his lies, people will die. we will be right back. lies, pel die. we will be right back.
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the coronavirus, 97,000 children tested positive for coronavirus in the last two weeks in july, according to the american academy of pediatrics, does that give you any pause for schools reopening for in-person learning. >> no, because you may call it a case, it's also a case where it's a tiny fraction of death. tiny fraction. and they get better very quickly. yeah, they may have it for a short period of time, but as you know, they -- the seriousness of it, in terms of what it leads to is extraordinarily small. very, very much less than 1%. >> you still believe that children are essentially immune? >> yeah, i think for the most part they do very well. they don't get very sick. they don't catch it easily. they don't get very sick.
and according to the people i've spoken to, they don't transport it or transfer it to other people or certainly not very easily. so yeah, i think schools have to open. we want to get our economy going. we have incredible numbers despite this. if we can get this going, i think it's important for the economy to get the schools going. >> as public schools grapple with the challenge of reopening during a pandemic, public education advocates are criticizing education secretary betsy devos for remaining largely absent from key decisions while working remotely from her michigan waterfront estate with her around the clock security detail paid for by taxpayers. let's bring in heidi and
dr. dave campbell. heidi, what did you find? >> even as devos is following trump and demanding that schools reopen, mika, she has a public schedule that has been empty for weeks according to nbc's review of her schedule. she's not touring those public schools that she's demanding reopen, even though we know many of them have poor ventilation systems which is a concern in other buildings, like restaurants for spread. she's not raising any funding alarms about the severe shortages that public school says they're facing. and last week she declined to testify before congress on a hearing specifically on school reopening. so i reached out to her office and asked what she's doing, they said she's been in constant contact with officials and superintendents. however when we reached out to
the superintendent association, which represents superintendents in all 49 states they said they have not heard from her all year. this is all the more notable because she does have the around the clock armed security detail which in theory could take her anywhere she wants to go, mika. nbc first reported on this in 2018, the amount of money this is costing taxpayers. we checked back in with the u.s. marshal service that tap is now $25 million and counting. betsy devos is a billionaire heiress, and this is coming to a head with schools targeting her in michigan with a billboard that should be arriving in grand rapids, the area she has her primary residence and summer es skate a -- estate. and on that billboard they're
imploring her stop hiding in your mansion. >> heidi, thanks. moving to dr. dave. with heidi's reporting on the lack of leadership there, possibly, kids going back to school, is what the president said correct about how literally no impact on them? because there are some schools that are opening and kids have gone back. what has happened, dr. dave? >> first, mika, we scientists know that kids are not immune to the coronavirus. they catch it, they transmit it, they've even show more recently that some of the youngest children, under 5, have up to 100 times more viral particles in their nasal fair nix than adults. we know that just in florida over 250,000 kids have been
swabbed. there have been 42,000 positive cases of children. seven have died in florida. many, many have been hospitalized in florida. i think it's over 400. so that's just down here in florida, imagine spreading that across the country. and we know that the virus has spread across the country. so as schools reopen, we might be able to take the georgia high school that everybody saw just a if you have days ago with the viral photo that showed kids walking through the hallways, that school in georgia, which was a high school, was found after a couple of days to have six kids positive, three students -- three teachers positive, they shut the school back down. so that's just one example. everybody has heard about the camps that have shown positive cases with kids kind of clumped together in cabins. no one doubts that there will be
surges and outbreaks caused by children coming back to school and while it is true that children generally have a more favorable clinical course when they develop covid-19, the bigger concern, truly, is those children then going home, often to multi-generational homes where there are grandparents and parents and who knows who else, passing that to the older folks with underlying health problems and then finding, in september and october, that we're seeing more serious, severe, and critical cases of coronavirus, covid-19, in those older folks or those that are sick. and, of course, some of the children have underlying diseases also that will be hugely impactful on their health. >> there are a lot of different problems there, dave.
let's line them up one by one. first of all about children getting the disease and then transmitting the disease. "the washington journal" had a story a day or two ago, latest research points to children carrying and transmitting coronavirus much more than was initially expected and that was just "the washington journal" from a day or two ago and it's study after study showing the children get it, they carry around a high load of it. and, of course, you look at what happened at the summer camp in many georgia, where, i guess, hundreds of children that went to the summer camp got the coronavirus and it had to be shutdown quickly. and again, the grave danger, the biggest concern for these children that are going to school. and again, something that we're having to grapple with, with a diabetic in our family and another child with upper respiratory issues, you can send healthy children to school.
and perhaps the percentages are lower that they're going to have really adverse impact from it in the short run, but there are two things we have to worry about. one, they transmit it, of course, to their parents, to their grandparents, to their siblings with underlying conditions. and two, dave, here's the great unknown, we don't know the long-term impact of covid on children. we -- all these people worried about vaccines, we -- we have decades of scientific knowledge that disproves those conspiracy theories, but we don't know the impact, the long-term impact of covid on young, healthy children. and let's just -- i can point to the boston red sox best pitcher, who's 27 years old, healthy athlete, got covid-19, was ready to come back and he's now out for the season because he's
having heart -- he's having a very serious reaction with his heart. and so, there's that great unknown as well. you don't know what you're sending your children to. maybe they have sniffles, maybe they have a cough, maybe they pass it to grandma, grand dad and maybe those children themselves, down the road, have more extensive problems from this. we just don't know, do we? >> no, we don't know. and what we do know is that this virus is not likely to go away. vaccines will come, vtherapeutis will come, maybe they work, maybe they won't. but we can be sure we'll be dealing with the potential of transmitting the covid-19, coronavirus, for months and years to come. so schools need to be reopened, but they need to be reopened
carefully and collectively in school districts where it's safe. i think it was gene robinson that made it clear, that you can mandate that kids wear masks in school. you mandate what they wear for their clothes. you can direct them to wear masks like they did not do in the georgia high school. and we saw what happened there. so there are ways tom minimize the risk of this virus being transmitted to teachers, to staff members. they're older. aalso have to go home at the end of the day, and could transmit it to their own families. there are ways to approach this carefully and thoughtfully. and some of the ways, joe, involve parents being responsible for their own children's behaviors and mandating things that make it safe for them. that is wearing a mask and washing their hands.
and this whole thought that you can't have children -- you can't control them, they're going to do what they want to do. i don't buy that, joe. i believe that -- >> no. >> -- kids have to wear clothes, they can't go to school without clothes on. mostly they have to wear shoes, and they can certainly wear face masks when they go to school and when they come home and when they're on the bus. and that will go a long way to helping us move through the fall and winter, joe. >> it's just unbelievable that we have to explain this. but dr. dave, thank you for doing so. dr. dave campbell thank you. heidi, thank you as well for your reporting. still ahead we'll discuss the effect of the pandemic on mental health amid a dramatic rise in the number of calls to suicide and crisis hot lines. we'll be right back. is hot lines we'll be right back. wayfair has everything outdoor
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>> what's happening? >> that was the moment yesterday when secret service abruptly es sko -- escorted the president out of the white house briefing room. it happened moments after officials say a 51-year-old approached a secret service officer at a post on the perimeter and said he had a weapon. they say he then ran aggressively toward the officer, grabbed something out of his clothing and crouched into a shooting stance as if he was going to fire on the officer. that's when the officer shot the man. the man and the agent were taken to the hospital for injuries. officials say at no point was the white house breached and at
no point was anyone inside the complex in danger. still pretty scary. >> jonathan lemire -- let's go to jonathan quickly. if something happened to the officer, we're thinking about him. our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. we greatly appreciate his service to this country. jonathan, can you give us any insights on the incident? >> sure. i was in the briefing room, when that scene that you showed unfolded. without warning a secret service agent approached the president, told him he had to go, the president asked why and then was whisked away. he stepped off stage though the reporters starred shouting question we loo outside and at that moment secret service agents surrounded the perimeter of ft building here and locked the briefing room doors. the building went into lockdown we were stuck inside. you can see us on the clip looking outside trying to figure out what's going on.
the position i'm standing now, in the tv position on what's known as pebble beach on the driveway, the reporters here were also rushed inside. those that were outside heard the gun shots. that's when we found out what was going on. there was no announcement from the secret service. the incident was over in a few minutes, there was shots fired. the president returned to the briefing room a few minutes later. it's not clear yet whether or not the president was considered the target of this accideincide. the man did approach the officer threateningly and the president after a few minute's break, continued his briefing, which included misstatements about the vaccines and questioning whether joe biden believed in god and wanted to hurt god. so it was more of the same from the president after this this incident. >> i really hope that
evangelical leaders will call out donald trump's -- it's blatant anti-catholicism, jesuit leader who's the editor of american magazine talked about how there's been a long assorted history of people of other faiths suggesting that catholics are anti-bible, anti-god. that is the sort of hateful bigotry against catholics and the attacks against catholicism that i hope republicans will call out and evangelical leaders will call out. and joe biden, mika, as you know, is a man who unfortunately has been called upon time and time again, through one personal tragedy after another to lean on his faith in jesus christ and to
pray to god just for the strength to continue moving forward every day. losing a wife and a daughter in a tragic, tragic accident. losing a son to cancer. my god, to suggest that this man of deep faith, quote, hates god and hates the bible -- >> it's sick. >> -- it's just -- it's unspeakably vile. and i ask those people who consider themselves the men and women of faith on the hill to call this type of hateful bigotry out. what would jesus do? remember those little bands that we all wore around your wrists for so many years? yeah. just ask yourself if jesus would do such a thing to a man who's
suffered so much during his life and suggested that he hated god and he hated the bible. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 11th. jonathan lemire, eugene robinson and elise jordan are still with us. and joining the conversation, chief white house correspondent for the "new york times," peter baker and director of institute of public service. we're going to start with republican senator ben sasse who called the president's executive orders unconstitutional slop. said that over the weekend. and he's hitting back after being called out by the president on twitter. the president tweeted this. rino ben sasse who needed my support and endorsement in order to get the republican nomination for senate from the great state of nebraska has now that he's got it, thank you president t, gone rogue again. this foolishness plays right
into the hands of radical left democrats. senator sass responded by tweeting in part, quote, i understand you've been frustrated i didn't join your re-election committee and that i ran a primary ad admitting to nebraskans that we sometimes agree and sometimes disagree. you also know i never asked for your endorsement nor did i use it in the campaign. none of my disagreements are personal. he went on to say, on the topic that had made you mad this weekend, no president, whether named obama or trump or biden or aoc, has unilateral power to rewrite immigration law or to cut taxes or to raise taxes. this is because america doesn't have kings. okay. ben sasse. >> and then there was -- and then there was one. >> yeah. >> you know, peter baker, it's
remarkable all the whining and -- that we've heard from donald trump on any republican who ever says anything about him. but you remember very well, as do i, that republicans were almost uniformly critical of barack obama using executive orders too aggressively. i was critical of it myself on this show because it drained away power from congress, from the legislative branch, that the president, whether his name was obama or trump doesn't have. the question is this, though, if you now have ben sasse willing to speak out against donald trump's radical extreme anti-conservative actions, like trump is trying to do here. and you have mitt romney who occasionally does the same thing. mitch mcconnell doesn't have that large of a majority in the
united states senate for donald trump to keep attacking one republican after another who may be offended he's following in the footsteps of barack obama when it comes to executive orders. >> this is an issue that goes to the prerogatives of individual branchs it's not about partisan politics, generally hasn't been in the past, every congress resents it when a president basically encroaches on their territory, usually without regard to political party. it's only in the last few years it's been made into a party line issue. you see the president going after sass is habit of enforcing discipline and punishing anybody who strays from the flock. if he allows one to stray, the theory goes, then others will be encouraged and you punish one and others will feel afraid of joining them. of course, ben sasse isn't the only republican who thinks this in the senate. many republicans in the senate think this, they were offended
by president obama's executive overreach, what they saw about overreach, and they don't like it with president trump and they don't speak out because many of them, don't want to get in a fight with the president and has shown a willingness to go after enemie enemies, even inside his own party. >> and the president attacking you not a bad thing at all. peter, let's set up the week right now. obviously our economy is still stumbling along, staggering along. a lot of people, millions of americans still out of work. this pandemic, as robert samuelson wrote is not a pandemic recession, it's a pandemic depression. so if we are in the middle of a pandemic depression, what's congress going to do about it? what's the president of the united states going to do about it? the house passed a bill months ago, mitch mcconnell and the senate have refused to do
anything on it. and right now there seems to be a standoff when americans, who are in big trouble buying their groceries, paying their rent, getting their kids' supplies to get them ready to go back to school, they're not able to do that because they don't have a job and they don't even have any assistance from the government. so what are you hearing on the ground? is there a possibility that the white house and congress can come together and we can have a deal to help these americans who are suffering so much? >> well, you wouldn't think it would be so hard, right, because everybody agrees that the country is in trouble, that all the people feeling the pain of this recession or depression, or whatever we want to call it, and yet this is washington today. this is washington that managed to close government for 35 days just about a year ago for no particular reason over a fight over border wall money which could have been solved without having to inconvenience and
punish so many americans who work for the government. now we're affecting a wider swath of people, tens of millions of americans out of work. they're not going to affected by the president's payroll tax defederd defefrl, if it even happens because they don't have work. right now the issues is they have rent to pay, need to put food on the table. but the executive orders that the president signed made it more difficult because it's requiring the states to input into it, states that may not have the money and it makes them put in a new system. >> jonathan lemire, with so much at stake, pandemic depression, where do the negotiations stand
in terms of congress being able to get something done? >> right now, mika, negotiations stand nowhere. there are no negotiations right now. there are both sides expressing a willingness to continue. the president claimed the democrats approached him and said they want to start talks but the president has not provided a list of which democrats we pressed treasury secretary steve mnuchin on that, too. the executive actions, even aides acknowledge, are stop gap measures they hope it delivers good headlines for the president. but we asked about unemployment aid which went from 600 to 400 and some cases may be 300 if the states can't chip in that remaining piece although the federal government may try to fund the whole thing. it's going to require an application process and it's going to be slow, several weeks
likely before those americans who need that money so desperately actually receive the paychecks. i will say, there's a lot of eyes right now on chief of staff, mark meadows, a real fiscal conservative, that he's the one holding back some of these negotiations. "the washington post" wrote on this today that others in the room want to spend bigger and the chief of staff is trying to keep the budget down even at a time when a larger stimulus might be beneficial to the president's re-election chances. >> speaking of the election, with just three months to go until election day, the latest georgetown institute of politics battleground poll is out and finds president trump facing eroding support on a number of issues. just 23% feel the country is headed in the right direction. with 72% saying it is on the wrong track. and if the election was held
today, 54% would vote for joe biden as president. the poll also found president trump's approval rating at 42%, with 55% disapproving. that's pretty low, joe. >> yeah. that's pretty low. but we've seen, it's fairly consistent with other polls out right now. i was talking to a long time political pro who's been around a lot of campaigns. we both said the same thing. we both believe donald trump could win in 2016 but after 2017 we've been absolutely baffled why a president who just barely squeaked past the finish line would work so aggressively at offending people and actually not work one single day to expand his base. so you look at that 42% number and i guess the question is, how
does a president get from 42% to 47% when he has been -- when he started at a disadvantage and has only made that situation worse. >> it's interesting, joe. if you look at his -- you're right. it's fairly consistent with other polls. we have seen for a while that the president's job approval numbers are upside down. but what has kept him in the game up until now has been general approval, not on his overall job but on his handling of the economy. up till now, he's had a net positive approval rating when it comes to the economy. our latest poll shows that since october, between october and now, that net approval rating on the economy has almost completely eroded. that when -- in october he had like a $114-point lead or net
approval rating on the economy. in this poll voters trust joe biden over donald trump by two points when it comes to the economy. it shows on the issue of the covid economic recovery, his job approval is way upside down and voters trust joe biden over donald trump. this is hurting him with independent voters. it is hurting him with suburban voters and with middle class voters. a group that he used to hold a lead with, they are now -- that lead is completely eroding and if he can't change the fundamentals of this race, he's in real, real trouble. >> elise jordan, i fear the answer to this question but knowing donald trump's patterns what do you think he does with this information? how do you think this will play out? >> mika, we've seen donald trump's increasing desperation
over the past couple of months as he tried to enforce political solutions on what is a medical pandemic in need of answers of science. and he's going to try a travel ban. you look at how he's trying to ban americans with coronavirus from reentering the country, a travel ban is always his solution for everything. a travel ban that won't be upheld in the courts. we'll see antics similar to the caravans that were going to overtake the country in the 2018 midterms, the strategy that didn't play out so well for him at the ballot box that go around. it's more fear, hysteria keeping the cameras on him. it's going to be a rocky couple of months until the election. and certainly it will not be devoid of senseless panic and nonsense from the commander in chief. >> we're seeing a lot of that right now.
mo, gene robinson is with us and has a question for you. gene? >> mo, did -- does this poll look with any specificity at the battleground states in particular or is it a general national poll? what can you tell us about the battleground? >> the poll is a general national poll. but it does take a look at some key groups and some key constituencies, including the rural, urban, suburban divide that we all know is so important in a lot of these battleground states and fairly consistent with a lot of other polls, it shows that the president's support in the suburbs that can turn a lot of these battleground states that we're all keeping an eye on, that is completely gone. his support in the suburbs, particularly among suburban women, has taken a huge, huge
hit. again, fuelled by some of the same issues that we were talking about earlier, the general economy, jobs, the economic recovery, the handling of covid, and one thing we haven't talked about, dealing with the summer of protests and race relations in suburban communities across the country they are abandoning the president. he's mhemorrhaging support ther because of his mishandling and joe biden is stepping into that void. >> thank you very, very much, mow. and peter baker, thank you very much as well. still ahead on "morning joe," the impact of covid-19 on mental health what we know and don't know. before we go to break "the washington post" is again highlighting the urgent case of freelance journalist austin tice. during his last summer as a georgetown university law student, tice travelled to syria
to document that conflict, eight years ago this week he was taken captive and has been missing ever since. the post's publisher and chief executive fred ryan is calling on president trump, just as he did with president obama, to stand up for america's values and bring austin home safely without further delay. ryan writes today is austin's 39th birthday and he will celebrate it as he has the previous seven, alone and imprisoned thousands of miles away from his family, friends and the country he served. no american deserves this. and no one who believes in in the values of a free press should tolerate it. >> amen. >> we'll be right back. e it. >> amen. >> we'll be right back ♪ ♪
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returning to the united states from abroad if authorities believe that person could have the coronavirus. according to the "new york times," the proposal would expand the government's power to prevent industry into the country in individual limited circumstances. the times notes under the proposal the government could block a legal citizen from crossing the border into the u.s. if the official believes the individual may have been exposed or is infected with the communicable disease. federal agencies have reportedly been asked to submit feedback on the proposal to the white house today though it's unclear when it might be approved or announced. so now countries don't want us so we can't leave and we may not let americans back. this is where we are because this virus has been so poorly handled. and that is such an understatement. on the effects across the board
to the health of the people of this country. >> so for future leaders watching this show. actually, leadership matters. six months ago, nine months ago, even going back to his first week in the office of the presidency. donald trump thought that throwing out travel bans against muslims, travel bans against china, travel bans belatedly against europe was somehow a sign of strength. actually, it wasn't. because his first travel bans were ruled unconstitutional. his travel ban against china ended up being a joke. 400,000 people flooded in. 40,000 people flooded in even after the ban from china. so, yeah, now we're six months into this and what do we see? we see other countries banning the united states, american citizens from going to their
countries, even though they desperately need their tourist dollars because donald trump's leadership has been so terrible. so there you go. >> all right. let's get now to the impact of the covid-19 coronavirus on mental health. joins us psychologist dr. gillian galand, she teaches at harvard medical school. first of all, i know it's too early for really accurate suicide numbers to be tallied up and for data to be coming in, but what are you hearing, even anecdotally among your colleagues about the concerns in an uptick in suicides during this pandemic? >> yeah, you know, think it's something that everyone is really concerned about. currently it's the tenth leading cause of death in america. it's the second leading cause for adolescents' death in
america. it's too early, we don't have any actual data yet. the things that are worrisome is right now we're seeing a significant uptick in the number of calls to crisis and suicide hot lines. so it's great that people are calling for help, but it's worrisome and something we have to keep an eye on. >> so -- >> what are the -- go ahead, joe. >> i'm sorry. i was going to say, we heard some reports, anecdotal reports of more college students complaining about depression. of course, as you've always pointed out, this was a growing problem even before the pandemic, but what are some of the signs that not just parents, what are signs that loved ones should look for in this age of pandemic, which, you know, could last another year? >> sure. i think some of the things that are worrisome are the risk factors around suicide. one of the biggest risk factors is social isolation. with the quarantining with
taking kids out of school, with taking, you know, adults out of their job, you know, its's very, very worrisome that people are much more socially isolated. they are relying on technology to connect, which is absolutely better than nothing. we want people to use the technology to connect. but it's different. it's a very different feeling than being with people. you know, we know -- so sense of loneliness and isolation are significant risk factors. we know that feeling a burden is a real risk factor, thinking about people that have lost their jobs so that economic burden maybe on their family or not being able to support the people they love. you know, there's also a group of people that are -- you know, that are more at risk with the sense of they're working really hard, trying to make a difference, and they're not really seeing the impact. so you're looking at a group of
front line workers that we're worried about. they're working, doing the best they can, doing what they can with the resources that they have. but, you know, they're seeing a lot of deaths. and, you know, now we're thinking about going into the fall and even starting to see early in the summer, you know, with no return so not a lot of break for those people as well. >> and we saw many stories of health care workers who faced tremendous burdens and some unfortunately took their lives. for people watching the show right now who may be isolated, may be alone in their apartments in a larger city or even in rural communities because they can't travel, what are some of the things americans need to do to protect their mental health? >> so, you know, one of the benefits of us having to go virtual is actually that for
many treatment is much more accessible. so people now just using their smart phone so people that have that as a resource can access online support groups. they can access individual therapy and treatment. they can -- so you can connect and get treatment in that way so if there are people that need that and you're worried about, you made it so you can have treatment without leaving your house. and then i think there's all the things we can do to work on our own vulnerability factors, what can i do to take care of my emotional foundation? they're basic things but they're hard. we can balance our sleep, we can get enough exercise. we can go outside. we can find things to contribute. find small ways in which we think that, you know, give us the feeling that we're making a difference. we can reach out to people that
we're concerned about. we can really be careful. there's been a significant uptick of people using substances to manage. so we can really monitor that and make sure we're using more effective skills and not, you know, the kinds of skills that are like substances to get us through the moment that haven't really produced significant impacts on our mood. we have structure, we can get up in the morning and get dressed and build the structure of our day. we can get outside. these are all the things we need to do that keep us healthy and we can do it with not as many resources. >> elise jordan has the next question. elise? >> dr. galen, specific to children i'm worried about how we can help children deal with this moment that so many adults are struggling with, but i just can't imagine if you're a child and possibly not going to school, not seeing friends.
so what can we do, as adults, to help the children in our lives deal with this as easily as possible? >> this is a great question. i worry about this for my own kids. i think what we need to do is first we need to make sure we're talking to our kids about what's going on. i think for adults, as adults i think most of us are having a hard enough time with like all the changes. we can go here and there's this restriction and this, we think we plan for one thing and then they pull back and now all of a sudden we can't go there or we have to wear more masks or school is going to start and then for us they delay the start date. i think the first thing we can do is talk to your kids about it. so we do the best we can do help them manage the uncertainty about what's going on. you know, depending on the age of your kid, there's some -- you know, there's some nice resources online about what
coronavirus is. i know there's been some "sesame street" episodes that have sort of helped younger kids where it's harder to figure out how do i talk to them about it, answer their questions? i think you have to let them ask a lot of questions. remember, a lot of their anxiety comes off their parents' anxiety. so we need to regulate our anxiety and worry and be clear with our kids because otherwise, as we get more anxious they start to get more anxious and they're not going to really understand what's going on. and for older kids, it's thinking about different resources for them. how do they connect safely with their friends? you know, that's a really important, you know, part of school for kids. it's the other side of the academics. >> doctor, i want to drill down a little bit more on something you just said about the uncertainty and children. we know often are so desperate to have routines, they're used
to certain structures. it seems there's younger kids who aren't aware what's going on, might be delighted to be home with their parents all the time. then there are older children, 8, 9, 10, 12, whatever it might be, who are old enough to know what's happening and what they're missing, sports, schools, friends. what is your advice to parents as how to manage that sort of tricky age group? >> it's a great question. you have to validate and recognize their worries. so we have to balance some reassurance with everything is going to be okay. we'll try to find ways to problem solve these things for you. and recognize their worry, upset, anger, sadness, disappointment makes sense and then the best to do is work with the kids and think about a structure, how can you be involved, how can we see your friends, do we do socially distanced play dates, do things over zoom?
how do we acknowledgement that this is really disappointing and you are really missing a lot of stuff that's so important. and then, you know, make sure we don't get stuck there but move to let's think about what we can do about it and can we be creative as a team together so we're feeling involved and empowered to do something. it's up to the parents' creativity to think about these ideas of what we can do, how can we do it safely and do things that the kids are missing so much back to them as best we can. >> as we go, last question. what's one thing that people watching this show should do today? if there's somebody they haven't heard from, somebody who seemed to retreat during this crisis? somebody they're just a little worried about? what's the one thing each of us should do today? >> i think the one thing that each of us should do, me included, is reach out to
somebody. if you haven't heard from them, reach out to them. let them know you're thinking about them. ask them if they need anything. tell them that you care about them, tell them that you love them. and try to open that line of communication so that they know if they do need something, you know, that you're somebody thinking about them and if somebody is really, really lonely, that text or that phone call or even if you feel like writing a letter to somebody that you think that would make a difference to them, it goes a long way. it's a little thing, it takes us hardly any time. so reach out to people you haven't heard from and maybe they're just fine and they're going to appreciate the connection and maybe they're struggling and they're going to appreciate to have somebody they can reach out to. >> dr. gillian galen, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. coming up, evil geniuses, the unmaking of america, author curt anderson joins us with his new
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joining us now best selling author and novelist curt anderson. his new book out today is titled "evil geniuses, the unmaking of america a recent history". and joe, a very recent history. so much has been undone in the past few years. >> my god we're talking here, curt, obviously about a generational problem. and it is -- man, it is the problem of our time. i'm so glad you spent so much effort digging into it because, you know, even back in the early 1990s, you'd have what 30,000 people going into a gm plant, working for gm, and now today, you know, you take all the
employees of apple and google and go down the list and they don't even add up to just the employees that were able to support a family through general motors. so a lot of this is consolidation, a lot of it is technology, i understand. but where does this greed part -- how does that play into the bigger picture? >> well, there was this moment and i was a kid you were probably not even born, but in the '70s and '80s, this -- >> hold on. hold on. i was born in the '70s, man. come on. >> okay. you were that little dude on the street and i was a teenager. okay. >> exactly. >> but this paradigm shift happened and, you know, america -- the american political economy, the system was working really well
economically. economical economically, leaving aside racism and my soldierny. as equal as, you know, the scandinavian countries really now. but then this change happened and it didn't just happen. it wasn't accidental. there was this whole range of tweaks and big changes, hundreds of them, that were made by the political right, by the economic right, that made inequality worse than it had to be. inequality increased in european countries as well, but not like it did in this country. and you look back, and i did look back, i was oblivious, i was complacent things were fine for me as they were for lots of people, liberals who thought this isn't so bad. it's going great. but you look back and i started waking up, i guess, in the '90s,
late '90s, and saying wait, how is this happening? finally with this book, "evil geniuses" i'm trying to do a forensic play by play of how greed was unleashed. it was a do your own thing, find your own bliss, principles, ideas of the late '60s that got unfortunately weaponized into business and greed and market values overrode all over american values. >> okay. so how is it, though -- i come from, obviously, the economic right. i don't know if you're left, center left, exactly where you are, but obviously we grew up on different sides of the political divide and we both find ourselves in the position now, concerned about the future of western democracy, liberal democracy when you look at
what's happening to the united states, britain, look at what's happening in poland, in hungary. and in all of those countries across the west you've had deindustrialization, and it's been followed by a technological revolution that have made the rich richer and the poor poorer. so i'm wondering, if we had done everything the way you think we should have done it in the '80s and the '90s -- i'm not arguing that we shouldn't, i'm just asking how much of a difference would that make between what's happening now in the entire western world? >> let's leave britain and france aside. but so much of europe, northern europe and australia and canada for that matter right here next door. you look at where they ended up and where we ended up, and they have in their very different ways health care systems that work. yes, those countries too over the last 40 years have developed
more inequality but a tiny bit more because through government means they buffered that through tax codes and the rest. they made those problems not so severe. and -- whereas we didn't. so it's what really we've done since. what we haven't done over the time. we let -- we had petal to the metal hyper capitalism and only the top 20% got richer. you look back and for 75% of americans, median income has really been flat lined. that didn't just happen. nor did it just happen that we decided -- or private companies decided no more pensions, no more fixed benefit pensions, we'll let health care get out of control, we'll let higher education get expensive. those things didn't happen in the rest of the rich world. we did a lot of things wrong.
it's going to take what i think looks radical to fix it. as i say, i was a centrist, i was a centrist liberal democrat, not very far left on economics. but once you look at the facts as i spent the last three years doing, once you look at what happened and how and why it happened, it really was the rich and the economic -- and the ideological right and big business deciding we're going to do everything we can, by any means necessary, anything we want, to maintain and increase our power and wealth. in addition to being unfair and un-american, it isn't good for the american free market system. as we found out in the '30s. both roosevelts saved the capitalist system from itself, from its excessive greed and i'm afraid that's what we need now. >> and gene robinson, speaking of rich, how rich the donald
trump campaigned in 2016 as a populist and you still have republicans running around claiming to have populist credibility and yet they all supported a tax bill that was so extraordinarily weighted to the richest billionaires and millionaires and multi-national corporations like amazon and microsoft and facebook, you name it, and twitter, that donald trump said after signing the bill at mar-a-lago to all of his rich billionaire friends, i just made you all a lot of money today. >> yeah, he sure did. and it continues to this day. i have a question for kurt, which is, kurt, was this a boiling the frog sort of situation? a gradual increase of things or is there any one moment, any one decision, any one person that sort of jumps out at you as being key and necessary for this
transformation you've seen? >> it's both of those things. there were individuals, that's why i ended up calling it evil geniuses from milton freedman t as the supreme court justice who didn't get confirmed in 1987, he transformed anti-trust to make anti-trust something we no longer did. he was pivotal. but there was a lot of frog boiling among affluent and liberal democrats especially, as we all basically dropped -- we no longer had any big differences economically with conservatives. i mean, i always bridled when people said republicans and democrats, they're the same. no, they aren't, look at the supreme court, look at that. but economically, i got to say, i mean, if there's a progrefrog
boiling, it was that. we, the democrats and liberals, when we no longer -- after we abandoned the kind of fdr new deal ideas, we just like, oh yeah, let's move to the center, let's move to the center. the center in economics kept moving to the right and there we were. that was the frog boiling part, i guess, that there was a lot of complacency among affluent people whose jobs weren't being outsourced or offshored or automated until the 21st century when, for instance, that happened to journalists and lots of other white collar people. so there was that. but these shocking memos that i unearthed and stick in, from this amazing memo that louis powell wrote in 1971, laying out the plan of how the right and business should take it back and defeat the revolution they were all worried was coming to this memo in 1980 that the
billionaire commission to figure out what they, what the economic right, should do about the law and judiciary and, again, laid it out and two years later there was the federalist society executing that. so it really was kind of a class war. don't take it from me it was a class war. warren buffett wonderfully says that, this is a classist w isisd it's my side, the rich side winning and it shouldn't be. and it was free markets are good and free markets are good if they're properly regulated and control, everybody will benefit but they just didn't and it just kept being the rich got richer and only the rich got richer and then of course you had the corruption of the politics by unlimited campaign contributions
and lobbying expanding by ten, 20, 30, 50 times in washington over the 80s and 90s and it got harder and harder to have the normal democratic pendulum swing go back the other way. >> so, kurt, obviously there's been more of a focus on the distance between the richest americans and the poorest americans, even greenspan a few years ago said it was a threat to american capitalist. you talked about anti-trust laws which reminded me of a conversation i had with somebody a couple of months ago, i've never invested in the stock market, it's gambling and a friend said you should invest in the stock market. i said what companies should i invest in? she said the monopolies.
which led me to ask the question why and let's start with facebook, why shouldn't facebook, which is a monopoly, be broken into a thousand little pieces like we saw the government do with ma bell in the 1970s? we're better because bell was broken up, we're better because of the anti-trust statutes were actually followed. why not do that with facebook and some of these other monopolies? >> well, bingo. and one of the green shoots of hope i see in the last few years is certainly on the left but also on the center and among righteous people like you, joe, on the right there is an ascendent revival feeling of anti-trust. if we want a free market, it has to be a lot freer than it is now
with these monopolies it. >> it's not free. >> and make prices go up. again, i had these hunches but until you look at the facts and see how much more expensive things like cell service and phone service and airline service are in the united states versus europe because they took our lessons, the europeans and said oh yeah, we should little r -- liberalize our economies and have free markets but also have tough anti-trust laws and they do. so this greed power to us, power to us is going to wreck the system. the pigs feeding at the trough are going to knock over the trough, are already knocking over the trough. it's horribly short sighted. >> it's an important book, mika,
made more important by the fact that kurt suggested i wasn't even born in the 70s. he should get into the politics. >> well, there you go. kurt anderson thank you very much. coming up, stephanie ruhle joining us with her interview with jpmorgan ceo jamie diamond. we'll get his read on the state of the economy and efforts to secure a relief package. o secure a relief package. because i can still make my own insulin. and trulicity activates my body to release it like it's supposed to. once-weekly trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. it's not insulin. it starts acting from the first dose. and it lowers risk of heart attack, stroke, or death in people with known heart disease or multiple risk factors. trulicity isn't for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. don't take trulicity if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop trulicity and call your doctor right away
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if we didn't close up our country, we would have had one and a half or two million people already dead. we've called it right, now we don't have to close it. we understand the disease. nobody understood it because nobody's ever seen anything like this. the closest thing is in 1917 they say, right, the great pandemic certainly was a terrible thing where they lost anywhere from 50 to 100 million people. probably ended the second world war. all the soldiers were sick. it was a terrible situation. >> the war's over, man. dropped the big one. >> what? over? did you say over? nothing is over until we decide it is! was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbor? held no! >> forget it, he's rolling. >> hey, i'll tell you what,
president pluto probably would be doing a better job than the current occupant of the white house. mika, you know, this is -- they're just ruling out words. >> it's sad. >> first of all, he hasn't yet figured out the year for the worst pandemic in modern world history. he says it wrong all the time. i don't know if he doesn't have any staff members that can come up and tell him that it was in 1918 and 1919, sir, since he likes people to say sir. this reminds me of joseph stalin, who nobody on his staff had the courage to tell him after they had gone into the netherlands, he said let's invade holland next. well, nobody had the courage to tell stalin, obviously nobody has the courage to tell donald
trump that sleepy don, it was in 1918 and 1919. point of personal privilege here, donald trump always mocked jeff sessions law degree, all mocked the university of al bam, all mocked people with southern accents and said he wished he would have gotten somebody's attorney general that went to a better school than alabama. let me just say we in alabama may not be as flashy as some ivy league boy, but we least know the difference between world war
i and world war ii. he's ignorant of history and has been ignorant of history his entire life, ignorant of government, ignorant of di plopplop -- diplomacy and we have see the effects of it and there are still people who want to elect him for another four years. >> and that ignorance of history is so dangerous. i remember it was right after he was elected, jared kushner was quoted as saying i think as he was talking to a group of people in the white house, we don't care about history. i remember that sticking out as something that seemed obvious, they don't seem to follow any of the rules of history, learning from the past. we'll talk about this more and the possible consequences. >> that's a great point -- that's a great point because i remember talking to them. i remember other people going and talking to them and jared's opinion and donald trump's
opinion was we don't need to know history because look what happened in the past. in fact, they were saying they didn't even need to know about middle east history. you know, tried to talk to jared about 1967 boundaries, about the '73 war, about camp david, just about all of it. and the attitude remained, i don't need to know about history, stop talking about what's been done in the past because everybody failed. we have a new way to do it and this has been one of the great failures of this administration, at least diplomatically because there are so many other failures but diplomatically they were ignorant enough, nay, they were stupid enough to believe that the world began on january the 20th, 2017 and didn't realize
they were part of a 240-year history where policies build upon other policies. and you improve upon other work that's been done over 240 years. the best example of that, harry truman starts having to do things in 1947 to stop soviet expansionism, that nine successive presidents follow, whether they're republicans, democrats, liberals, moderates or conservatives, they understand following the truman doctrine, they understand that leaning on nato, they understand that all of these things that were put in place were put in place for a reason. and there was this string of continuity that ran through nine presidencies and it caused the berlin wall to collapse. and it caused the united states
to prevail over the soviet union in the cold war, and it created -- this is what donald trump will never understand, it created the american century. it laid the groundwork for a foreign policy construct that made possible not only growth in europe and growth in japan and growth across the planet but exponential growth in america. that's the stupidity of his view and this american first view. oh, oh no, nato may get something out of this, oh no, we can't do a trade deal with the eu. hey, hey donald, sleepy don, we benefit more from all of those jobs. look at our gdp.
look at the growth of our country economically since 1945. we're the country that consistently rises exponenti exponentially, and we have done that because we've had a system in place that if you had listened to james mattis when he tried to explain the world to you since 1945 and you got up and yelled instead because you had your alternative reality and it just didn't fit with that. we know you like putin. we don't know why. i got to say that's got to be one of the most fascinating things. years from now probably, but when we figure out why you act the way you do towards vladimir putin, it's really shameful, donald, you should be ashamed of yourself. but when we find out, it's going to be fascinating. but if you had just listened to
what general mattis said and other advisers were trying to tell you, we'd be in a much better place right now. but no, you had your own ideas about north korea. you told us sleep well tonight, you neff have to worry about north korea -- you were stupid enough to believe you could go over there and talk to a communist who put people through paper shredders, you were stupid enough to believe you could play apprentice with him. you got used and fooled and america is in more danger today from north korea than ever before. you now the you could -- you th could invite the chinese over to
mar-a-lago for dessert. oh, isn't this good dessert? you thought you are going to win over president xi? you followed him along like a little puppy dog. you even said on january 24th of this year, "the american people, you're still thinking about that cake and it's the greatest cake i ever had." and you said on january 24th in a tweet, i don't know if you remember this because you don't even remember the difference between war warorld war i and w war ii but you said the american people would like to thank president xi, he's done a fantastic job and we're really grateful he's been so transparent. you said that two days after you said the coronavirus was one person coming in from china and it was going to go away. but how could you have known,
right? it was early. you only had everybody in your administration warning you about this. but you don't listen to them. maybe you should have listened to joe biden, who at the same time you were praising president xi actually wrote an op-ed. that's the thing, donald. you create your alternative realities, the rest of us live in the real world. we can look at our google machine and see that joe biden at the end of joe biden wrote an op-ed and that said, mr. president, we're not ready for this pandemic, we're not ready for this pandemic. you need to listen to your doctors and you need to listen to your scientists and you need to follow their advice or we are in trouble. you didn't do it. >> all right. >> you didn't do it. you couldn't figure out testing. you couldn't figure out hieven
what year the first pandemic was, donald. and you can't figure out why people don't like you. that was your comment? because you're not doing the job and you're historically ignorant and you've made no efforts over the past three and a half years to learn, to improve and to save american leives. >> still ahead, president donald trump has issued executive orders for coronavirus relief but governors across the country are concerned about the cost and want congress to act. we'll talk about where negotiations stand on capitol hill. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.
several governors are expressing their outrage this morning over the lack of clear directives from president donald trump's executive actions aimed at providing coronavirus relief. most notably the leaders have taken issue with the states being responsible for 25% of the administration's unemployment measure, as tax revenues plummet and costs continue to increase. andrew cuomo of new york compared what he estimates would cost $4 billion to, quote, handing a drowning man an anchor. while michigan governor called on trump to stop playing political galemes. mike deweine has no plan to sped the $100 that trump's order
deman demands. there is call for a national s cohesive strategy. the group co-chaired by asa hutchison of, arkansas, called n congress to come up with a workable situation. we are in the pandemic, we are now in the phase that experts are calling depression. we need to help the american people. this doesn't seem to need to be so hard, joe. >> yeah, but the thing is, again, it was all show biz. as john lenin sang in "nobody loves you when you're down and out," it's all show biz. and jonathan lemire knew he
couldn't get what he needed from democrats, he knew he wasn't going to get the negotiations going in the direction he wanted them to go in. so as you reported yesterday, he made these announcements that were, again, pretty remarkable achievement. they were both unconstitutional and meaningless at the same time. so as we move forward and as we find out, again speaking of alternative realities, that the president lied through his teeth about democrats wanting to come back to the table because they said we didn't call him. just like when he lied about china calling hill from last summer? china called. no, they didn't. he lies, he makes things up. he did that again yesterday. now that we find ours seelves i that position, jonathan lemire, what's going to happen with negotiations going through the week with so many americans suffering? >> joe, you're right. there seems to be a lot less to these executive actions and not
even all executive orders than the white house certainly initially framed. this was a political move in many ways. this was the president trying to largely stay on the sidelines for the first few weeks of the negotiations to insert himself in the center of it, in the white house's framing making himself a man of decisive action. it follows a pattern, joe, of the president here in this stretch run of this year, under three months until the election, really betting big on himself. he's always been one, of course, to be reluctant to see the spotlight, has always fancied himself his best prep secretary, trying to win a news moment, chang that cable chyron on the bottom of the screen. and we have seen him now once again push himself forward alone for the daily coronavirus task force briefing, thinking that it's his best opportunity to show a somewhat somber approach
to the crisis as well as replace the fact that he can't have any sort of campaign rallies. this is his outlet to address his supporters to soak up media attention. we have seen him of course, he and his team were betting big on the debates later this fall, thinking if that's his best chance to turn around things against joe biden, we have seen him try to promote his convention speech, which he's now promoting at the white house, perhaps gettysburg, which drew a lot of condemnation -- >> wait, wait, let's stop right there, jonathan. why did it draw condemnation from a lot of places other than it would be actually a breach of ethics, right, if he did it at the white house or if he did it at gettysburg? >> both of those options, joe, would indeed run afoul of ethics violation. this administration has not paid attention to the hatch act, which prohibits lobbying at the
white house and there's some precedent for using the white house for back drops for political events but certainly nothing as grand as a convention acceptance speech and gettysburg, too, a federal left-hand mark would also not necessarily be appropriate, in addition to being what it is, a sacred place, in many ways a cemetery and a controversial choice perhaps for a president who has spent a lot of time and energy in recent weeks and months defending confederate generals, whether it's statues or military bases. of course there are plenty of confederate monuments at gettysburg, in addition to remember bran rememberances of the civil war. the white house is sending signals. they're saying the president is trying to get across they're trying to restart talks, they want democrats to come back to the table and republicans in the senate to do the same and want
to be a participant in negotiations but there's a significant gap of well over a trillion dollars between the two and the president is trying to step in a public relations move with governors upset with what he has laid out before them. >> coming up on "morning joe," new polling showing joe biden leading president donald trump among several voting blocks. "morning joe" is back in a moment. and can't wait until you are too. universal orlando resort. buy now and get two days free at the parks. restrictions apply.
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new polling from morning consult showing joe biden leading president donald trump in every break down of gender and age groups, among likely voters biden holds a lead of 8 points, 51% to 43%. among women, biden is up 53-40%. among money biden holds a narrower lead, 48 to 46. now when looking at the age break down biden leads monday voters under age 57 to 34
percent. age 45-64, biden up 49 to 45. above age 65 biden leads 49 to the president's 46%. this won't bode well for trump, joe. i usually envision and usually get a vision of him reacting in some extreme, horrific way with his behavior. >> well, we'll see what's happening. right now he's trying to undermine the post office's ability to effective handle mail-in voting and the absentee ballots that are going to be coming in. gene robinson, obviously we've heard time and again and we don't know if it's going to end up being correct or not that donald trump -- that joe biden is going to win the popular vote but it won't matter because it going to break down to state by state by state. you look at all of those
demographic breakdowns and you do have a growing gap, growing gender gap. as we've seen in polls over the past couple weeks, just an incredible sizable lead, especially in the suburbs among women. talk about what you see in those polls. >> well, look, if joe biden is ahead in every age group, including the over 65s and if the gap is eight points nationally, it is highly unlikely, it is like trying to thread a rope through the eye of a needle to imagine how donald trump wins the electoral college this time with numbers like that. this is a big gap. it should be pointed out this is a bigger and more consistent gap between biden and trump that we ever saw in four years ago between clinton and donald trump
where the polls were much closer. this is -- these numbers semimp are different. these are not the numbers that you somehow eke out votes in michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania. he's behind in florida, and in states that he absolutely has to win to have any chance of being re-elected. >> elise highlights the selection of joe biden's vice presidential selection. any thoughts on what he should do? do you think he should play it safe? should he take a chance and go outside, you know, kamala harris
i guess is expected to be the safest chase for him right now but is there a chance he moves beyond that? should he move beyond that or keep it in between the guardrails and play it safe? >> joe, i'm so impressed with the field of women who could potentially be this v.p. pick and i don't see how joe biden can really make a mistake here. i think that leaning towards the safe choice at this stage in the game, someone who has been vetted probably goes in line with joe biden and how he operates. i doubt that we'll see something radical that really, you know, shakes up the conversation and the race, which right now frankly joe biden doesn't need. he needs attention to still be focused on donald trump and his shortcomings leading us through this coronavirus pandemic. and you look at the polling numbers and that's really what it's coming down to for these
voters who are not coming out for donald trump and saying their support to pollsters when they're contacted. it's all about the coronavirus pandemic and donald trump's handling of it. that is the main issue for voters in november. >> coming up on "morning joe," jamie diamond was at the helm of jpmorgan chase for the 2008 financial crisis, and now he's weighing in on what business leaders must do during this time of crisis. msnbc's stephanie ruhle jones us with her exclusive interview next on "morning joe." on "morn"
effect of seeing the effect of a recession. it will affect incomes, it hasn't yet because of the government larges, home prices with people realize they may not have a job. >> that was exclusive interview with jpmorgan ceo jamie diamond on the lasting economic impacts of this pandemic. chase is monday dozens of banks, consulting firms and technical companies who have pledged to hire 100,000 people from low-in low-income minority groups by 2030. joining us stephanie ruhle, eugene robinson and elise jordan are back with us as well. so, steph, what more did jamie diamond tell you about how things are looking during this pandemic?
>> mika, juxtapose what jamie diamond said that one of the reasons we're not in a worse economic situation is because of all the government support and just yesterday the president of the united states said he thinks the economy could grow by 20% in the third quarter and he sees no barriers, there's no reason why that wouldn't happen. remember it was jared kushner who said the economy is going to be shooting up like a rocket ship in july. neither of those things are happening, so i did ask jamie diamond because he is the only ceo that was there through the financial crisis and now while he's very complementary of j powell at the fed and steven mnuchin, he acknowledged congress needs to do much more now. >> what is congress is determining the next economic relief package, what do you think they need to do? >> i don't think we have that much influence. congress speaks to everybody, a lot of groups they speak to, i
do think there will be unemployment insurance extended. they should split the difference, move on, $300, $400. there should be ppe, particularly focused on the folks who need the restart money or the ones who doesn't get it -- minority businesses got muff less than they actually needed. >> here's what's a little ridiculous. jamie diamond is saying that ppe, that smalls about program did save upwards of 30 million jobs jobs, but to say small business, minority owned businesses didn't get very much money, well, news flash, if you're jpmorgan, if you're steven mnuchin, you slight know this information. so the next relief bill has to be completely focused on getting knows who are left out in the fold. it's not up in the media to tell you who was left out. >> and i don't really understand
why the negotiations are so difficult at this unbelievably stressful time for the american people economically. gene robinson has a question. jump in, gene. >> yeah. steph, my only question is jamie diamond understands the economy, he understands how it works, he understands what the problems are now. why aren't he and others in his -- in similar positions putting more pressure on the president and on congress to do what they believe needs to be done to get us through this awful pandemic and the depression that steps from it? >> well, i would say two things. for their own situation, remember, when the financial crisis happened in 2008, it was banks who were hit so hard, the whole system was broken. of course if you're jamie diamond, a big bank ceo, what the fed has done thus far is really good for you. it's small business that has been hurt so much and individuals. just think about this for a second.
when we we talk about the stock market doing so well, one of the reasons big business is doing so well, it at the behest of small businesses going out of business. when you want to go down the block to the sporting goods store to pick up sneakers and they've been closed for months and months, you're going to go to dick's sports goods. thing about companies are filling the void where small businesses are going under every single day. one of the reasons i sat down with jamie diamond, they are taking action. he said for years businesses could ignore the fact that the people on the bottom are suffering, it didn't need to be a focus for them. he said that's changed, woo don -- we don't have an option at this point. even a company like jpmorgan, with thousands and thousands of job openings, if they do not address the openings from an education standpoint, it is only
going to get worse. you're seeing ceos partnering with city colleges to figure this out. those low wage jobs are going away and were going and even before covid because of automation. >> all right. elise jordan jump in. >> stephanie, i've been following your tweet and the rising stock prices of just the stock that i wouldn't have thought to have bought. i wasn't one those people who really decided to go in big in june and july. can you explain to us what's going on there with kodak? >> nobody would have thought to go and buy kodak in june and july. why? because the company's own executives were advising shareholders saying we don't know if we can't go on. things don't look good. then we saw the governor walk in with a nasimassive proposal to
kodak, a company that went bankrupt in 2011, ne hathey havn struggling. they got into crypto currency. they've been going nowhere. they're going to help revive kodak and they're going to get into the drug business. that makes no sense. now there's a huge amount of scrutiny because you saw the ceo of this company be given a huge amount of opgs the day before the deal was announced. the stock went from 2 to 60, objection? the government organization said to our colleague, we don't see any foul with this deal, it looks okay to us. then there was an investigation going on after senator warren urged it. this cannot be forgotten. the department of justice, the sec and d.o.j. need to look into this. i cannot think of another stock in history that you see go from
2 to 60 like that and i assure you, you've got board members and family members of board members who own a huge amount shares and lo and behold they've sold out in the last two weeks to the tunes of making tens of millions of dollars. this thing stinks. >> yeah. nbc stephanie ruhle, thank you and great interview. we'll see you at the top of the hour. >> and gene, your latest piece entitled "the wreckage that joe biden might inherit in november" you write no one should take for granted that trump will lose to joe biden in november, but the more likely this result appears to be the more clearly we can see the wreckage that bide wrn n would inherit. trump's tenure has been a disaster all along but it is getting worse, with long-term implications are dire, with
schools opening willy-nilly, without a national strategy in place, there is no chance that the novel coronavirus will simply go away as trump fantasizes. so if he wins, biden's biggest challenge might be to take the decisive and effective action against covid-19 that trump has neglected. he would also be left with a social crisis. cities across the nations are still robbed by the black lives matter protests, police violence and systemic racism. none of the harm done to the nation will automatically repair itself if biden wins. this the only worse prospect is the unthinkable, trump wins. and, gene, it hard to put into words even, you know, when i
think about the work that my dad did and many like him, geo st strategic relationships that take 10, 20, 30 years -- >> 50 years. >> so much has been torn down in an instant. >> it is amazing. it is what a toddler can do to the lego construction that his older brother or sister has painstakingly built over the courses of hour and ths and it gets knocked over. i feel so sorry for the memory of your father and how much of that has been blown away or neglected or forgotten and brent scowcroft the other day. i thought of that when he died.
look, if he inherits these huge overlapping crisis of the economy, the pandemic and black lives matter, he gets those. it almost seems as though trump in some instances in unwittingly and in some instances wittingly making all these crises worse than they have to be. and it's going to be a mess that the next administration and one hopes there is a next administration because if it's another trump administration, i can't imagine where we would be four years later. but if it's a biden administration, the mess that's going to have to be cleaned up is going to be -- is huge. and it's going to take time and effort and resources that otherwise i'm sure a new administration would want to spend in enacting a program and moving us forward, just to get
us back to point zero is going to take a whole lot of work because we are in the hole right now. >> up next, how to crush coronavirus until vaccines arrive. dr. michael oesterholm jonan -- joins us right here on "morning joe." us right here on "morning joe. to order and pay. america runs on dunkin'. to order and pay. try wayf♪ r. you got this! ♪ perfect. -you're welcome. i love it. how'd you do all this? told ya! wayfair. let's talk dining tables. yes! blow it up. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪
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dr. michael osterholm. he wrote an op-ed in "the new york times" entitled, here's how to crush the virus until vaccines arrive arguing, quote, to save lives and the economy, we need another lockdown. >> so doctor, thank you so much for being with us. i often -- >> thanks, joe. >> -- quoted you from a previous interview where you said months ago we were in the second inning. i move that up to the fourth, fifth inning, a few months after that. i think i'm back in the second inning. this thing could be around for another year or so. what are your thoughts? >> well, i think you're right. somewhere in between there. the third inning. we'll split the difference. just to remind people the context for this conversation that when you think about all the pain and suffering and death and economic disruption we've experienced to date, only 8% to 10% of americans have been infected with this virus, and it's not going to slow down until we get to at least 50% to 70%. we can get through it through
natural disease or through a vaccine. we can't count yet on the vaccine being there. we have to come to grips with this virus. we have to learn to deal with it. we're ignoring it thinking it's going to go away, and it's not going to happen. >> so talk about why the united states has fared so poorly when you compare us to other european countries. we were watching italy closely, spain, britain, very concerned. but, my gosh, that seems like years ago. now, of course, we're carrying far more cases than the entire eu. why have we failed so miserably? >> well, i'll add a caveat to that. 49 states and the district of columbia have failed. ironically, new york, the state that was on fire back in march, because of the fact that it did what all these other countries in the world have done, is that when we had such a major challenge, back in march, they locked down in a way they drove the virus down to the point to
where it went from a huge forest fire that then was largely contained to now cleaning up brush fires. what we did in the united states, outside of new york, we got to the forest fire about 80% contained and said, ah, that's enough. let's go. in may, we gave up. we went from 32,000 cases a day in march down to about 22,000 cases in may. but hardly extinguished the virus and watch what happened. it came back up to 65,000 cases just a few weeks ago. now we're going to come down with this short-term change in how we're interacting with each other. i can see cases being in the high 40s, low 50ss until we get to labor day. schools are going to hope at the higher ed level. high schools in particular, grade schools, are not likely to be nearly the problem. and we're going to see another explosion, joe. it's going to go way beyond the 65,000 level. we just don't understand that. and the op-ed you talked about that i did, i co-wrote with neil
cashkari. we did marry economy and health together. it's going to be much cheaper to really deal with this and lock down than it is to continue to watch these cases increase for the next 6 to 12 months. >> you've talked about, along with other epidemiologists, other scientists, other doctors, dr. fauci, dr. gottlieb, people that devoted their entire lives to following pandemics. you've been warning about what happened in the fall. what was going to happen when the flu season collided with this pandemic. donald trump, of course, several months ago said it was going to be gone by the fall. nobody -- no scientists or doctor that i've spoken to agrees. and do you still believe that the fall could actually be the most catastrophic time for us because the flu season is going to collide with this pandemic? >> yeah, well, first of all,
we're going to see an explosion of cases in september, just related to the reopening of colleges, universities and high schools. so that's going to be the next kind of big fire line that we're going to have to deal with. the second thing is, it's indoor air. influenza may or may not be a in the southern hemisphere. but for certain, indoor air is going to be a huge challenge. the more we're together inside, the more we're together with people we'll see major transmission issues. these superspreading events that we see. so i see the fall as being a kind of coronavirus on steroids time period for this country. and that's why we have put forward our plan to say, you know, pay me now or pay me later. if we lock down, get better control like these other countries have done, where they could basically live with the virus in a very different way than we are right now. the only answer, the fall is going to be a challenge. >> and yet mike pence says
america needs college football. your thoughts? >> well, again, you know, do you want to have bars, restaurants, college football, things like that or schools you can open more safely? do you want to have your grandparents and your parents protected in nursing homes? do you want to be able to have a sense that i can go out in public spaces? so it's choices. it's all about choices. this virus is not making us do anything but it's allowing us the opportunity to do the right thing and that's what we keep ending up not doing. and so i think as a public health practitioner here, i'm not the message. i'm the messenger. this virus is the message, and we just don't seem to get it. so what we have to keep coming back to is there is hope. we can shut this down much, much more than we're doing. but we're going to have to take the medicine to do it. if we don't, we will pay over a long period of time with the medicine that's going to be much more severe than what we're recommending right now to shut down. >> mika? >> doctor, so -- obviously one
of your points is another lockdown. and some might say that that will cripple the economy even more. and that will cause hardship, economic hardship which will lead to mental and physical hardship as well. it's a balance. are you saying the lockdown must happen in order to save more lives because some might argue it's more of a balance in terms of losing lives, losing business, losing livelihood. suicide going up. this is one of the arguments the president makes. >> right. >> you know, and mika, this is a very, very fair argument. and we address that in our op-ed. this was written by me as a public health person but also neil kashkeri who made it very clear because of the increased savings we've seen, this unexpected windfall of going from 6% to 20%, we can finance
all of the payment to keep people whole, to keep small businesses whole to keep state and local governments whole, just through that mechanism alone. no foreign paper, no nothing. so we understand. we've got to get us through this. this is an investment in our future by getting us to this point. so if we can keep people pad if we can keep small businesses from going under, then, in fact, we're going to accomplish two things. one, control iling the virus an two, not letting the country sink into this economic despair. >> all right. gene, jump in. >> just a quick question. do you think we will shut down again, or do you think we'll do what we did the first time which is push it down a little bit, maybe close a few things, shut down again, and then say, okay, we're done and prolong the agony? isn't that what we're really going to do, likely? >> well, we are. and we can say we're americans and we have this individualism
about us and we do these things the way we're going to do them. be damned what the rest of the world is doing. we have to step back and say new york really messed it up early on. the challenges they saw there with that house on fire, with the long-term care facilities, and this is not a partisan statement. look what they're at today. they've gone through almost ten weeks now level cases. they've had days with no deaths in the state of new york. this has been remarkable. and they got it right. we should learn from that. so if new york can do it, why can't 49 other states and the district of columbia do it? that's a message right there. we don't have to try to be like europe or like the asian countries. we just have to be like new york which, for many people, is going to sound probably, you know, irresponsible to say because we're not like new york. but i believe they are a lesson for us. we can do this. >> they are the model. dr. michael osterholm, thank you so much for being on the show. >> thank you. and that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the
coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. thanks, joe. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is tuesday, august 11th, and here are the facts at this hour. we start with some positive news. the number of new coronavirus cases is trending down across the nation. although there are 5.1 million cases total, just 43,000 were reported on monday, a big number, but far less than the 60,000 or 70,000 we were seeing in july. hospitalizations have fallen below 50,000 for the first time in a month. and less than 600 deaths were reported yesterday. that's about half the number we were seeing two weeks ago. over on capitol hill, negotiations, unfortunately on a new relief bill have ground to a dead halt. party leaders spent most of yesterday blaming each other for the dd lock. nevertheless, steve mnuchin said he is still willing to sit down with democrats at any time. it's just unclear what he'll have to