tv Hardball Weekend MSNBC April 22, 2012 7:00am-7:30am EDT
good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, george zimmerman on the stand. it's a well-known principle. defense lawyers don't let their clients testify but today in his bail hearing covered by all three cable networks, george zimmerman took the stand and told the parents of trayvon martin that he was sorry for their loss, that he did not know how old trayvon was and that he thought he was slightly younger than himself. the judge set bail at $150,000. also on trial, some critics argue, is florida's stand your ground law. florida led the nation in implementing the law. now that governor rick scott has designated a task force to stand your ground, could it set the stand for repeal or revision? plus, despite polls showing presidential race is essentially even right now, republicans are discouraged about mitt romney's prospects and democrats plan to make them more discouraged. give up the romney is a flip-flopper argument and hold
him to all of those right-wring positions he took in the primaries. and there's more fallout. tonight from the secret service scandal. three more agents are out. finally, let me finish with the number that will determine whether obama or romney gets elected this year. we begin with george zimmerman's day in court. joanne reed is managing editor of grio.com. she joins usç right now. and kendra coffey is a former u.s. attorney. well, i always start these conversations by saying i am not a lawyer. i listen to those who are. let's take a look at this. here's george zimmerman speaking in court this morning and addressing the parents right there in court of trayvon martin. let's watch. >> i wanted to say i am sorry for the loss of your son. i did not know how old he was. i thought he was a little younger than i am. and i did not know if he was armed or not. >> joanne reed, that's something that the defendant in this case says he wanted to do earlier but
there he did it in court today. what do you make of it? >> what is interesting, the family of trayvon martin found that very off putting and disingenuous. the truth of the matter is george zimmerman has had opportunities to address the family before. he started a website a couple weeks ago at which no such statements of contrition were included. he also had a phone call, he left a message for a friend, frank taaffe, in which he expressed no remorse. when i spoke with one of the attorneys for the martin parents, they felt that this was a performance for the cameras, about humanizing george zimmerman. >> yes, but what did he say was the reason he did it today? i understand his statement was that he was told by counsel not to try to contact the family. isn't that the case? >> well, that is what he is saying now. again, we only heard for the first time that he wanted -- >> is that true? >> the family has essentially said they have had no contact from george zimmerman. >> we know that. but let's go over to mr. coffey. would it be normal to tell a defendant or potential defendant in this case not to contact the
victim? >> of course it would be. and it would be not very common to put a defendant on the standç for any reason whatsoever to make what was an unwanted and apparently unappreciated apology. because it creates the risk that the prosecutor might be able to go somewhere when you expose your klein the to cross-examination. the judge kept a very short rein on the prosecutor so it didn't blow up in their face, but it was an unnecessary risk and it certainly doesn't seem to have accomplished anything for george zimmerman. >> by the way, i'm not a lawyer, again. but i'm always surprised by things that happen in court. let me ask you this, mr. coffey. is it normal in a bond hearing to say to the person, the defendant in this case, that you committed a crime, the day you committed a crime, to basically say he's guilty, as if he's been found guilty. is that normal, acceptable parlance in the courtroom. >> did it surprise you that he
got away with it? >> it surprised me that the defense did not object. important result for george zimmerman, he is going to be out on bail. >> joy-ann, were you surprised by that, that he called him a convicted criminal, basically? he said you committed a crime, right there in court, as a fact. >> absolutely. he challenged him also. i think the presentation of the prosecution was as much as he could to try to cross-examination george zimmerman. as kendall coffey just said, there was a tight rein on him. >> he didn't cross-examine him. he said you are a criminal, you committed a crime in his questioning, he just said it. >> right. but the idea is the presumption from the prosecution is that he is a criminal. that's the presumption. they're going into this case with. it's not shocking that they would present the case that wayç the defense is trying to mitigate at every turn what was in that proffer from prosecutors. they were trying to say that confrontation was problematic. it should have been that zimmerman met trayvon martin
rather than confronted. >> isn't confrontation -- isn't confrontation a loaded term? >> absolutely. but it's also what the prosecution is trying to accomplish. they are trying to prove second-degree murder so each side wants to present evidence in their best light. >> gotcha. mr. coffey, kendall, let me ask you this question. is this the normal thing in a bond hearing that you try to establish the credibility of a witness, the credibility a defendant, i guess? >> what the prosecutor was trying to do is take the opening he had and be as aggressive with george zimmerman. he was also aggressive cross-examining george zimmerman's wife and father where they were very careful about holding back was the best evidence. anybody that thinks that the best evidence of the prosecution has was fully displayed today is making the wrong take-away from this hearing. >> your thought, joy-ann? i'm sorry. >> that's fine, i think the prosecutor actually said right at the end of his presentation, look, we've got a lot more, and you've got to presume they were trying not to show too much of their case because remember,
there can be a second hearing and kendall coffey is the expert who can explain that. there can be a second hearing on stand your ground. they don't want to give the defense attorneys a preview of their case, which could give them an advantage going into that next hearing. >> let's take a look at this hot stuff. here's george zimmerman's father questioned via speakerphone this morning. he was asked about george's, his son's appearance following the shooting that night. let's listen to his case, his testimony, at least today. >> so what did george's head look like when you saw him the day after?ç >> well, his face was swollen quite a bit. he had a protective cover over his nose. his lip was swollen and cut. and there were two vertical gashes on the back of his head. >> did you see the any pictures of that? >> i did not take any pictures. >> have you seen any of them? >> yes, i have. >> who showed them to you? >> i saw one on the news today.
>> the state attorney's office ever show you any of those pictures? >> no, they did not. >> let's take a look at the pictures. they're an exclusive, we got them from abc news. let's take a look at those pictures. there it is, i guess there's that gash there. two vertical gashes on the back of his head. i don't know how to read injuries. joy-ann, your thoughts about this evidence that's all over the country now? >> chris, when i saw that picture, the question is, when was that take season if you look at the timeline by presented by the police department, within minutes he was confronted with police officials. florida law would have prohibited them from taking pictures. if a neighbor walked onto the scene shortly after the shooting but before zimmerman was treated, remember, he was treated in the back of the patrol car for cuts and bleeding nose. when did a non-member of the investigative team get to take a picture of the back of his head? that's the question it raised
for me. >> you're suggesting that the abc account is inaccurate? >> no, i'm just saying -- >> what are you saying? >> did other people get to come onto that crime scene? did they take that at the scene, which would also raise question% about the investigation. if people not directly involved in the investigation were close enough to the crime scene or were on the scene before he was treated, that means that they encountered george zimmerman while the police were still investigating. so that's my question. >> why is that relevant? why is that relevant to his guilt or innocence or whatever happened that night? >> i don't think it's relevant to that. >> why is that relevant? >> i think it goes back to the way that sanford police handled this case, which has been harp sharply criticized. not just by trayvon's family but by people in law enforcement, saying did they just resume he was the victim and not do a thorough investigation? >> i think you're making part of a broader question about the whole way they dealt with this. to me personally watching this, again, with the presumption of innocence, i don't like the way the whole matter of this guy, this kid, the way he was treated that night and how almost irrelevantly he was treated, almost like they assumed he was
the bad guy. o'mara, by the way, the defense attorney, questioned the investigator from the state's attorney office as to who started the fight, which is a critical question between zimmerman and martin. let's watch this inner play. >> do you know who started the fight? >> do i know? >> right. >> no. >> do you have any evidence in the courts who may have started the fight? >> no. >> you know, let me go to mr. coffey here, kendall, there's a number of steps in this, when did the encounter begin? we can assume the encounter began because he was trailing this guy, he was suspicious on whatever. you can throw in the profiling thing if you want. he was suspicious of him. he confronted him, they confronted each other at some point. does it matter under the law of self-defense who throws the first punch? does that matter? >> well, it certainly can, and that's why i was, frankly, ç surprised by the gap in that part of the testimony. but certainly the state is going to get to work on fixing that,
because if, in fact, it develops that trayvon martin started the fight, or that the state can't prove who started the fight, and i'm not saying by any means that he did, that's a problem. it certainly helps george zimmerman with his self-defense, but we are very early on in this case. again, we have to emphasize the prosecution has a lot more ammunition, and that is, like what was being said a moment ago, something they have to stay up for the stand your ground hearing. because if there's such a hearing, it gives the judge the ability to throw the whole case out, and that's going to be a much more actively contested hearing than anything we saw today. >> well, the prosecutor had one final message in his press conference. let's watch that today. >> you all have not heard the evidence.
please be patient and wait for the trial. thank you very much. >> well, this is so tricky here, joy-ann, i don't know how we are going to cover this. i'm going to do it with the presumption of innocence as we do in all cases. i think everybody's going to be watching this with all kind of attitude here, right? >> absolutely. chris, the bottom line is that this case has been litigated and re-litigated on twitter, on blogs, online, everyone feels they, too, are prosecuting this case and everyone has taken a side. that raises questions about jury selection, is the entire jury pool in the country tainted. and can zimmerman get a fair trial? those are all important questions. >> what scares me, if we can all watch a picture, a movie, a tape of everything that happened that night from the beginning to the end, i think there would be a difference of attitude about guilt and innocent. that's what scares me about this case, there are so many different perspectives, so muchç history. ever since the first slave arrived in the united states, the attitude of history here. you can't push it aside, i don't think. thank you, joy-ann reed, please come back. kendall coffey to you as well. coming up, florida led the country with the stand your ground law, it could be at the heart of this case, we don't know.
after the trayvon martin death, could it be the first in the country to repeal that law? that's ahead and it's coming here in a minute. this is "hardball." afternoon ca. with certified advice to help us expand our palette... ...and prices that give us more spring per dollar... ...we can mix the right soil with the right ideas. ...and bring even more color to any garden. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. it's grow time. get one-quart perennials, four for just $10.
on our car insurance. great! at progressive, you can compare rates side by side, so you get the same coverage, often for less. wow! that is huge! [ disco playing ] and this is to remind you that you could save hundreds! yeah, that'll certainly stick with me. we'll take it. go, big money! i mean, go. it's your break, honey. same coverage, more savings. now, that's progressive. call or click today. let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do. motorcycles -- check. atv. i ride those. do you? no. boat. house. hello, dear. hello. hello. oh! check it -- [ loud r&b on car radio ]
i'm going on break! the more you bundle, the more you save. now, that's progressive. i'm a firm supporter of the second amendment. i also want to make sure that we do not rush to conclusions about the stand your ground law or any other laws in our state. we look forward to hearing from the citizens in our state about their concerns and recommendations for keeping our state safe. welcome back to "hardball." that was now a somewhat famous florida governor rick scott yesterday announcing a task force he's created to review the state's stand your ground law. now the center of public debate following the death of trayvon martin. the 17-member task force headed by florida's republican lieutenant governor jennifer carroll. there she is. an nra member who voted to pass the stand your ground law while serving in the state legislature back in 2005. she also voted in favor of the take your guns to work law. wow.
in 2008, what is going on? with me are two members of the governor's task force, the democratic florida senator who voted to pass the stand your ground law in 2005. and kenneth bell, the former judge of the florida supreme court justice. i don't live in the head that you guys live in, the pro gun thing, i don't get it, i don't get it, i don't get it. sometimes i think you want to go back to the long branch saloon with marshall dillon. trying to clean up -- i have to start with something really basic. stand your ground, okay, i guess the argument of if you're out on the streets and someone is ç really trying to kill you, you have the right to defend yourself, that's fine. but what is this gun fetish that you are -- why are you voting for all of this gun play, you have 900,000 people in florida with concealed weapon licenses, almost a million people walking around in florida today. you go into a movie theater, you have 20 guns in the movie theater with you.
what's that about? >> well, the law as a result of the looting after the hurricanes in florida. >> oh, give me a break. the looting after the hurricanes. so in other words you put a sunset law on this and it only lasted through the hurricane. >> no. it's a good policy. i think what we tried to do was protect the home because a person has a right to defend themselves in their home. and a lot of people don't live in housing, they live in cars. they have a right to defend themselves in their car. >> senator, i think you're in the bs land when you say to defend your home. the right to carry a concealed weapon is not the right to have a shotgun upstairs in the closet. it's the right to walk the streets, rather proudly, with a gun in your pocket. why? >> well, this is america. and the constitution allows you to have, to bear arms. >> no, your law allows it. your law allows you to carry a concealed weapon. >> that's true. just like other states in the united states of america allows concealed weapons, too. >> i think you guys are flipped out. let's go to judge bell.
you're part of this problem, too. are you one of the guys that thinks everybody should walk into a restaurant armed? >> no, no, not at all. >> no, really, there are certain people out there that won't go to a certain hotel unless they can carry a gun, unless they can pack, won't let them in to have a meal. this is long branch saloon stuff, guys. i grew upç watching matt dylan. this is saloon stuff. your thoughts, judge bell? >> well, i'm on the task force that the governor appointed because my experience with the general law of using justifiable force in defending yourself. that's what you call the stand your ground law is about, it's not about guns, it's about whether or not and in what circumstances you're allowed to use deadly force to protect yourself or your family or others. >> so what else are we talking about besides guns, judge? you said it's not about guns. what do you mean? >> well, chris, it's about public safety. >> no, no, judge, you're on the stand here.
you said it wasn't about guns, stand your ground. well, in the trayvon martin case, it's clearly about guns. if mr. zimmerman didn't have a gun on him, i don't know what would have happened, but the other guy wouldn't have been shot. >> well, what if he had a knife or a baseball bat or a sword or any other weapon? there could have been other weapons used in the case that he could have used deadly force in an appropriate or inappropriate way. the purpose of the task force is to look at the changes to the law and the law itself does not address the issue of the right to bear arms or concealed weapons. the law that's in question is justifiable use of force. and when -- and the presumptions and immunity and other things given there. >> let me get back to the senator, why do you think -- do you think it's a good idea to review this law to see if a good law or not? >> yes, i do, because a lot of defendants who use deadly force under suspicious circumstances are resorting to the stand your ground defense. i think it's appropriate that we
do go across the state of florida, which is our intent, to review those cases that are suspicious, to see if we need tç go back to tallahassee and tweak the law or do something. >> it's an easy defense, isn't it? >> absolutely. i think it's being abused across the nation. >> give me an example. >> here in sanford, florida, with trayvon martin and mr. zimmerman. >> wait a minute. let's not litigate that case. because that case is going to trial. find another case. you're a state senator. you must know other instances where it's been abused? >> i think there was a case in jacksonville where a person was walking down the street and he utilized -- he ended up killing the person, and utilized the stand your ground defense and he won. >> thank you so much, judge bell and state senator gary siplin, please come back on the show. i'm sure we'll talk about this as you proceed with your task force. >> absolutely. up next, governor chris christie wants you to know he never falls asleep during the springsteen concert, he listens
to the boss intently, in fact. he took on that allegation as only he can, coming up in the "sideshow." you're watching "hardball." or'ss earns double miles on every purchase, every day! here's my spark card. and here's your wool. why settle for less? great businesses deserve the most rewards! the spiked heels are working. wow! who are you wearing? uhhh, his cousin. [ male announcer ] the spark business card from capital one. choose unlimited rewards with double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day! wait! your boa. what's in your wallet? [ son ] mom, computer's broke! where's i.t. mom? she quit. [ male announcer ] even with technology -- it's all you. that's why you've got us. get up to $200 dollars off select computers. staples that was easy. woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ] man: a few inches of water caused all this?
[ heart rate increases ] woman #2: but i don't even live near the water. what you don't know about flood insurance may shock you -- including the fact that a preferred risk policy starts as low as $129 a year. for an agent, call the number that appears on your screen. [ male announcer ] while others are content to imitate, we'll continue to innovate. the lexus rx. why settle for a copy when you can own the original? see your lexus dealer. there's another way to help erase litter box odor. purina tidy cats. only tidy cats has new odor erasers... making it easy to keep things at home... just the way you want them.
back to "hardball." now for the "sideshow." yesterday i talked about massachusetts voters' latest beef with senator scott brown that he accepted a sizeable campaign donation from the president of the new york yankees. today senator john kerry join the "morning joe" team at fenway park's 100th celebration and didn't pass up the chance to knock brown for his ties to the evil empire. >> i'm the lone yankee fan on set today. i was listening to something scott swisher said. >> no, you have scott brown here. >> i'm just playing around. we are just having fun.
i want to announce to the boston press, that's fun, only fun. >> well, the progressive superpac american bridge is also reminding voters that brown has a rocky history with the sox. back in 2001, he supported a plan to move the sox out of fenway to foxborough, massachusmtus, where the patriots play. >> i know lots of things have changed over the years, but not fenway park. there's been a lot of talk over the years about replacing the park, but that would have been a mistake. >> perhaps not so surprisingly, brown forgets to remind listeners he once wrote a letter asking the red sox to move their >> brown suggested that the baseball team move to the football team's new stadium in foxborough. >> the things they fight about out there. next up, last week the new york post reported that new jersey governor chris christie had been spotted dozing off during a bruce springsteen
concert at madison square garden. the sighting was a hot topic in chris christie's press conference yesterday. >> what happened, during "rocky ground," which was kind of a spiritual song, people sat. so i sat up on the seat, and i put my head back and closed my eyes and listened to the song. when i was fist-pumping during "bad lands" nobody took pictures of that. when i was contorting myself during "because of the night" nobody took pictures of that. i have never fallen asleep during a bruce springsteen show. i will never fall asleep during a bruce springsteen show. >> actually, i believe him. christie says he's been to more than 120 springsteen concerts and had been lobbying the boss to perform this summer at a new casino in atlantic city. that's "hardball" for now. coming up next, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. it was when, "run it again." "kick through the finish." "you can beat that time."
and, "this is your day. good luck out there." it's amazing how far you can go with a little help along the way. td ameritrade. proud sponsor of the 2012 u.s. olympic team. you're probably muddling through allergies. try zyrtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. zyrtec®. love the air.
i would not say i'm into it, but let's see where this goes. [ buzzer ] do you like to travel? i'm all about "free travel," babe. that's what i do. [ buzzer ] balance transfers -- you up for that? well... too soon? [ female announcer ] fortunately, there's an easier way with creditcards.com. compare hundreds of cards from every major bank, and find the one that's right for you. creditcards.com. it's simple. search, compare, and apply. mobs of shoppers armed with 20 dollar bills come to the rescue of local small businesses. how to use pintrest to gain