tv Worlds Apart RT September 16, 2018 10:30am-10:57am EDT
because it is a project instigated by as a current ukrainian political authorities they want to create a united church or for churches the canonical orthodox church the two schismatic groups and also the greek catholic church which belongs to the pope of rome this moment for an independent ukrainian church started back in the nineteen ninety s. and baghdad and its supporters are pretty open about wanting a schism a political schism a religious schism but i think present person cut deep change the tactic a little bit and he presents it as him striving towards the unity of the ukrainian faithful i'm sure you dislike it but don't you think that it's a clever tactic for him we certainly like the idea of the unity of the church and we certainly dislike schisms but the broken silly. between schismatics and the canonical church. should go through. the process which we
call repentance and that is not repentance in the sense. in which we use this word for example when we talk about personal life about morality and so on it's a canonical term the return of eskies mights a group into is the body of the church. is done through the recognition of the fault of the schism in this case it is actually the schism which is good to be the basis for the outer surface church and it will not be recognized by the majority of the orthodox faith will in the ukraine so it is on the one hand it is the desire for unity which is proclaimed ones as a hint it is impossibility to achieve this unity by these months that's what we usually call politics it's only applied today really just fear now. the
constantinople patriarchate is determined to proceed it just dispatched you know it's an invoice to ukraine to prepare for the granting of autocephaly and i wonder if you could lead us through this process i wonder if there is any task that the church needs to pass in order to be recognized and in this particular case since we're dealing with different communities religious communities i mean are they supposed to be united first or the constantinople patriarchate is going to issue this really just license and do the church building later in order for the church to become autocephalous it should receive a special document in which is this out of self really is proclaimed and is recognized now the canonical orthodox church in the ukraine did not ask for such a tours and even if it is given such a document it will not accept it. the promise of how to safely can not be addressed
to whom it may concern it is always addressed to a particular person who is in charge of a persecutor church so before granting of this thomas of. they need to find a person who will be considerate of the church there is no such person at the moment there are. groups each of which is headed by a prosecutor person they are not in good relations with one another so even to unite as these two groups into one is already a problem so essentially we are talking about the granting of these other subtly to an idea of a ukrainian united to ukrainian church rather than the actual elitist institution that is based on the ground well i'm not sure why i was a preacher kate of constantinople is going to proceed because i do not see any possibility of the moment. for or sort of of the ukraine being
united in acceptance of such and they'd see it on the twenty they would even care about being united i think for the time being they're fine with whatever followers they have. well i think this separation is very deep it exists it has existed for already a quarter of a century and those are is always a possibility to heal the schism. this needs a certain process last year in the semper of the so called key of filleted in the center actually appeals to the. gate for recognition and also there were some words which can be interpreted as repentance so it could be a starting point for reconciliation but on the following day after this appeal he had to denounce all that he said in his letter addressed to the preacher of moscow
and i suppose it was the ukrainian state which simply forbit him to go in this direction and instead insisted that he should go in the direction of constantinople now so much of this dispute is about politics and legal matters who has the right to do what to home but i want to ask you specifically about religious values because the partial government betrays itself as a neo liberal government which comes with a certain sound of values on same sex marriage on abortion on the rights of the fetus and so on. is that something that this new ukrainian church that is supposedly being built at the moment going to support doctrinally do you think there is enough support for that and more of the parishes in ukraine well i think certainly if this church is created on the basis of the schismatic groups it will. propagate the norms which will go in the direction of liberalizations of
morality already we hear from the preacher of kit of constantinople that they admit that the second marriage. for the clergy it is something which goes contrary to the canons of the communicable councils and it is something which will not be accepted by any of the church so we already see of this kind of modern the liberal tendency in the preacher gate of concern to normal and they will not be surprised if the same tendencies we will also see in the so-called forced church once it is created by consent in opal in the ukraine and you mention repentance previously as a path to reconciliation but i've also heard the supporters of the ukrainian autocephaly advance. of pastoral care argument they they say that the people who belong to those breakaway religious communities need to be put at the center of
the process and that if they die now they are supposed to go to how but if their church is ever eckerd nies by the rest of the orthodox community that would allow them to impart divine grace and offer a path to salvation do you see any merit to that argument that people indeed should be at the center of all of this the way you presented it is a little bit simplified the sitting there argument the matter is somewhat more complicated. very often when people hear about these disputes they only hear the word terrorism as if we dispute about a particular theory sorry but it is not the territory which matters but the people and indeed the pastoral care is what the church is a boat and what the church is for. but it's
a problem with. the schism is in the church terms is something which is invalid for the bus or for example the sacraments. which are administered by the schismatics they are not valid because they are void of the divide of the divine grace and this is why we are equally concerned about the fate of those who belong to the schismatic groups and we made many attempts to heal this wound but the problem with the political try to merge the purely ecclesiastical issue with their political interests and they intervene into internal life of the church even of that process goes ahead be a crany an orthodox church of the mosque and patriarch it is still going to be the largest religious institution in ukraine as you mentioned it has more than wealth thousand parishes and two hundred minus trace in that country what do you have to
fear wouldn't true faith triumph anyway the true face will triumph anyway but the true face may triumph in different ways for example in the ninth twenties and in the nineteenth surtees the true face triumphed through the feet of the martyrs the priests were killed executed imprisoned the face for were treated in the same way as the churches were destroyed but the face trail because it was the age of martyrdom we fear that if this. so it is proclaimed the ukrainian government will insist that all the orthodox shuls belong to this new uniform cheer and announce let me stop you right here we have to take a very short break but we will be back in just a few moments.
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political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it just no lawyer i mean your list book video claiming the new bill is that i'm spoiling needle the former ukrainian president recalls the events of twenty fourteen. of those who took the kite invested over five billion dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. country. are.
welcome back to while the party with major fault hilarious to have the foreign relations at the russian orthodox church here. nancy just before the break you mentioned some of the concerns here how with regards to the security of faithful in ukraine and president bush and co pledged on several occasions that the water person so seated at the moscow patriarchate would be allowed to practice their religion freely he also promised that they would hold on to their religious property this is also in trying to in the ukrainian constitution why are those assurances and not enough for you well they're not enough for us because we hear that parallel to the assurances which we hear from president bush there are laws already on the table in the supremum in the supremum. council or the ukrainian state. which are direct discrimination and marginalization of the ukrainian orthodox church one such
a law if accepted will presuppose that the ukrainian orthodox church should change its name and that it should be in the name to the russian orthodox church in the ukraine and that a big deal this is a big deal because it is something like putting the. hilo. star on the jew in the in hitler's germany the year of the yellow star is by itself a sacred symbol but your answer in all due respect i think the level of prosecution which exists in the ukraine is nowhere compared to what we witnessed during the nazi occupation of eastern europe. but do you really think it's going in that direction i hope it will not go and is there action but if the church if a particular church she was a ukrainian or so the church is. condemned as the church of the
country aggressor say no. it's is deprived of legal rights we can expect we can expect that my tics will take control over major more on the streets like. like but. then of course the orthodox face will defend the secret police so we can expect blood shit and present pressure has lots of power in that country but certainly that power is also limited. at least by the way he's presented in the western media one that does something that would constrain any. such scenarios that you just laid out before us well if president. where are these type of more liberal secular police he wouldn't have
intervened into the affairs of the church i cannot imagine for example president trump say or so that's in the miraca that you have to be united into one jurisdiction and it should be in the miracle church and there should be no preacher accused of moscow etc etc your minutes and your opponents will immediately respond to that by pointing to a pretty harmonious relationship that exists between the russian orthodox church and the russian state with president putin being a practicing orthodox christian how being the church to expand its role within the society what is the difference between how state political and religious matters and intertwined in russia and how they are mixed up in ukraine i can tell you what's the difference if for example president putin would decide that all christians in the russian federation should belong to the russian orthodox church and if you would say that the roman catholic church in russia. is no longer
welcome. you should join the russian national church if you are petri awards then it will be a clear intervention into the into the internal life or the church's or if for example prison put in would dictate who should be or who should we lived as bishops this will be the intervention such intervention is an image in the book. now both russia and ukraine trace their history from kievan rus reaches i thing an interesting title because it merges together the concepts of geography and identity and from moscow geography has always been transit and secondary but not so much for constantin opel and kia for consumption opel for example its whole supremacy claim is based on the fact that the orthodox christianity was born in geographic locale and i think the ukrainians advancing
a similar argument that. christians christians were there before moscow was event found that and why should than it has it have any demeaning and over us what's your response to that. should underline that there is no single bed in the fully itself the russian orthodox church at some point was a part of the nature of constantinople them. it became without a surface church and it didn't ask for their consent and opal permission then i didn't ask for the permission of constantinople because at that time the preacher called for instance you know paul was in the union was wrong which according to the russian church was here is so the preacher core of consent in op was a hear a tick there was no one to ask listen from. by itself there is nothing bit in that but the problem for the ukraine currently is
that it is not the ukrainian or so the. short of the united to crane an orthodox church would swear an oath to safely it is that the majority of the orthodox faithful are against they want to stay united with the russian church but the schismatic groups on purely political grounds are asking for out of syphilis through which they want to legitimize themselves and peter are best telomere of constantinople seem to be responsive to those arguments up until a certain point of time what do you think changed in his understanding of the problem problem because as i mentioned before the this moment for an independent ukrainian church has been going on since the early one thousand nine hundred but it is only now that he is all of a sudden change his mind on the issue it's not quite all of a sudden of course there was something which stopped him from decisive.
actions and what is that this was the plan or for those council which was supposed to take place in two thousand and sixteen. finally it turned out. to be not quite the planned course of this council because for georges did not participate including the russian orthodox church or just to get an offense is that where he was very offended and moreover he even believed he told this to me put he may if we wish cords in the eight sorts on the see if it is of all the orthodox churches but it is we the churches who trust him with this rule and if he acts contrary to the opinion of the percy cuellar church we cannot accept that the russian orthodox church also accused the constantinople patriarchate of wanting to start a war against the unity of the orthodox christian church and it said that if the
ukrainian autocephaly is granted your ago. going to stop communicating communication of with with constantin ople by doing that when one sheer fact of only. fuel doubt or even more because you would effectively have to tie your cut your ties with other churches some of the churches will have to decide whether to side with you or with constant within that make things even worse first of all we do not need to cut ties with other churches if we cut ties with constantinople there are situations in which two churches are not in communion with one another but churches are in communion with both of them and this is what is likely to happen but in canonical terms we will have no option because we cannot accept in the. such action on the part of constance in opal we will have to respond
in this way and we are already a warrant several times. that this will be one of the can sequence of his actions he's supposed to announce his final decision i mean in a formal way i think somewhere in the fall do you think it's also now are we already beyond the point of no return or do you still hope hold out hope that something may be decided in a mutually acceptable way. many uncertainties in the entire project because as i said the canonical church didn't ask for autocephaly that those kids might see groups are not in the union with one another and there is no clear perspective of even them being the united then there is a few of the so-called few area who will not accept anything less then the church and their human speech or so there are many complications on the way. but we shall
see how it goes all your eminence i really appreciate your time today thank you very much for answering our questions. thank you i'm going to share here is to keep this conversation going on our social media pages. same place same time here on all the part time. job. or. prosecution will need to be. called where you. just read you'll find. somebody not going to see you do i mean yeah i mean i mean
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