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tv   Worlds Apart  RT  October 19, 2018 12:30am-1:00am EDT

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alten professor of government and russian studies at harvard university professor colton it's good to talk to your again thank you for agreeing to or we're speaking on the sidelines self did paul die foreign and the catchphrase of these years of band is the crumbling world the other is that's really desired guys or perhaps more of wishful thinking on the part of the russians well i wouldn't say it's wishful thinking i think the authors of the report that you're referring to actually saw the crumbling world order as a problem that they weren't very happy with but. so there was quite alarming discussion of the report at the first session and certainly a number of us start that they were exaggerating the degree of the problem. you know that the international order is under a lot of stress nowadays is beyond you know that they've been doing this for a picture to look for them and set the debuted as a problem i may have my perception is that the russians also see that as more of an
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opportunity for themselves or at least something that benefits that a geo political vision more i've done for example that merican to political no i think i think that's true sure i mean i think what runs through a lot of the reports are done over the years is the notion that the so-called unit polar moment which was dominated by the united states after ninety ninety one has run its course and that we're moving towards a multi polar earth russians often want to say no multi centric coup world and on that score i think many americans would agree so i don't think this comes as a great shock to most americans there are to be sure american experts and american public figures especially who don't agree with this but i would say more people agree with that than distributed you wrote a book on the origins of the ukrainian crisis that somehow a share of asserting that everyone lost from this contest for influence in its eurasia and yet i think there's a growing sense here in russia that moscow has been able to. convert the loss of
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the ukraine into something meaningful that it may have lost influence in ukraine but it has gained it somewhere else whereas the opposite happened to the united states do you agree with that well i'm not sure these things are necessarily interconnected i mean america's problems would be there would whatever russia was doing. well you know itself for years since the four and a half years since the great crisis erupted and you certainly can see that everything has gone wrong for russian foreign policy around it you know its intervention in syria starts in two thousand and fifteen that probably would have occurred with or without the ukraine crisis and you know i'm not sure how much you want to get into a discussion of russian behavior in syria but from a power point of view it's actually been pretty successful so one might say that there's been a period in which there have been certain gains but you know also lots of other things have gone wrong that russians are never shy of their grievances of democrats
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but i've got a sense that they've had enough of that already and they want to. kind of normalize their relationship at the moment i know that you've long suggested that there should be some sort of a working group or by the actual panel that would take stock of their relationship and focus specifically on how to avoid further damage rather. to katie who is to blame do you think that sustainable in the current american political environment. well that's an expert's counsel i think it would be sustainable this idea actually was one of the few concrete things that there are two leaders agreed on in helsinki this summer but nothing has been done about it as far as i'm aware but i mean it would be a small step in the right direction of saying yes but do you think the experts and those with fear of experts with reputable institutions can they really afford to reach a conclusion that would not see russia as the only. party to blame.
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well why not i mean united states is a free country you know you were free to say whatever you want about our government so i don't think such a panel would likely conclude that either countries exclusively to blame i don't think you'd ever get agreement on that but but you know the way you put it i think when you asked a question was the right way the suggestion here is to is not to dwell on the past because we can't really reach agreement on that for the moment we might reach a certain degree of agreement but not on everything it's more about what to do to stop things from getting even worse i think the decision to taint trump with russia was a deliberate tactic on the part of the democrats we know that some that leaked hillary clinton's e-mails is strong still talks that because of russia or is russia now a toxic because of trump. well i guess it's
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a bit of both you know this is the going on now for two years. there's been a lot of back and forth and there are so many i would say moving parts right now that it's the you know the causal arrows are very hard to follow needly the notion whether it's correct or not that you know from one the election. to some degree because of russian assistance has taken hold in many quarters we will now see because mr miller's report as you know should be with us and within several months what he concludes and so that i think does tend to stick and and the irony is of course as i'm sure is apparent to russians as well this that. the very fact that donald trump is associated with this effort means that it very much limits his freedom to improve the relationship with russia i mean i'm one of the few consistent. points that he made on the campaign trail was we should have
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a better relationship with russia he's been able to do quite a bit on the trade front you know you can agree or disagree with his tactics but you know he's been active whereas when it comes to russia this answer to some extent time not completely perhaps but he doesn't have a lot of room to maneuver. russia is not the only toxic topic for that song administration at the moment it now has to deal that the growing saudi american crisis and that crisis has much bigger economic states it also goes far beyond the trumpet ministration because it involves the in and the industries certain opinion leaders even that in the democratic circles is there any chance of saudi arabia taking the liberal hit the liberal resentment of russia well i doubt it i think the saudi thing is probably going to come to a head very quickly and something will be done and people have to live with it. whereas as far as russia is concerned if we're talking not so much about standard foreign policy and security issues like ukraine like like libya like syria but if
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we're talking about these. as of interference that's going to continue to rise to prominence until the motor report is delivered and conclusions are drawn from it and you know we don't know what the reports going to contain he's been mower robert modena charge has been very good to keeping their deliberations secret. the most explosive thing would be. the stablished in the report you know to the extent that you can rely on such a document that there was as they say collusion between the campaigns so that whoever the russian hackers were that they were actually cooperating actively with members of the of the trump campaign that's would be the most serious thing a lot of the rest of that i think we know many russians don't except maybe these facts i think what the russians don't accept is the scale of influence that is achieved it is. those ties that you mentioned whether we're talking about let's say
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you know a thirty in people somewhere in the basement riding a facebook post in poor english or something far more massive i know that you believe that the russian interference to take place what do you personally think was disco pivot. well i do accept the evidence that we've seen which has been shared a book you know these thirty individuals and some others that is for the scale that's a very legitimate question how many how much of this actually occurred you know it's very cheap to do these things you know you don't have to pay a lot one of the things we're learning from this new era of information warfare is that almost everybody can do it i mean small time almost everybody does it so you all of us well read it isn't all that it's i think it's contagious and i think we're bush going to see more and more of it because there's also if one is talking about scale and scope the question of the magnitude of the effect on the american election and here you know i think it's no one's ever going to prove it i mean try
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to trump lost the popular vote. but he won the election because he won in the so-called battleground states states often by their in their narrow margins so did these leaks in the souther stuff make a difference in wisconsin or pennsylvania i don't think anyone will ever establish that and i don't very much that the mother report will bill really bother to get to that now let me take you back to the i'm sorry that you asked about motivation and i think one thing. that is also fairly clear is that the to the the russians who are doing these things they're in their initial motivation was less to help trump than it was to harm clinton and i think that's that's probably where it started and they're not exactly the same thing but a from what i understand most people in russia even on the political and official level believe that it's not such a big deal that whatever they were doing whether it was even on the orders it's reckless from the kremlin or they were acting in doubt own capacity that usual
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response to that so what can you authoritatively asserted that this is something that the united states would never imagine doing to russia because i began my introduction of it saying that russians. you can strike their foreign policy in the way that if least in that view mirrors what the americans have been doing to them all along are they wrong. well. it's well known the united states is a defeat of the internal politics of many countries over the years who can who could deny that we invaded iraq in two thousand and three we actually they did the country and overthrew the president and i think what tends to happen though is that you know these grievances kind of pile up and they're used then to justify new decisions that are not very wise so in this particular case if you ask me that that shouldn't be done because it was likely going to be counterproductive had this boomerang effect and you know if you want to look through the history of american foreign policy behavior during the cold war and after you're going to find
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a lot of dumb things there's no question about it but it's not necessarily in your interest to do something kind of along these lines just because we made a mess years ago absolutely but also you tell not expect the kremlin to be able to you predict the. consequences of its actions if we assume that there were kremlin orders for that kind of interference. can you really believe that the comment could have cultural a that that it would leave to such profound consequences i mean with the whole due respect of the kremlin i don't think there is such a depth of foretelling now it's a very good point and also you know we use the premises of shorthand but it's not clear at this point that it actually was the cream of mystery ship itself it could have been some other center of power people involved you know working for private companies mostly so do you know the exact words and so that are sort of hard to figure but yeah lack of foresight and you know welcome to the club because you know
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many countries have misjudged the consequences of their actions in this case. you know it would be nice to ask president putin in a candid moment without you know accepting responsibility for this if if you could run the movie over again the film over again would russia do the same thing and it could well be that the authors of these of this little program wish they had never done it you will be out of the tunnel with him tomorrow so i'm sure you can try to ask him but the question i want to ask you is whether you see any signs that the kremlin. has learned anything from that experience even without admitting it because admitting it's usually a difficulty of the crime well you know admitting medicare is hard especially when it's the same people in charge for a very long period of time you've had the same poor mr for fourteen years the same leader for the country for almost twenty years we mean our democracy works differently and we rotate leaders so often the way you get
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a change in attitude is when a new leader comes in and says i don't want to do it the same old way but it's it's hard when you have somebody in power for so for such a long time. to admit that you made a mistake is something that leaders seldom absolute event even if it out admitting it publicly do you see any south korea correction on the part of the current russian administration well i think perhaps yeah i mean the press reports that i see from american media sources suggest that there's very little going on in relation to the mid-term elections of the united states. and so maybe we don't have the full information at hand but it sort of looks that way and also russia has i think starting last year also called for you know just discussion of a code of conduct and there are some something that did the americans dismissed out of hand well i guess in under the circumstances yes but it doesn't mean that it's off the agenda forever i mean it's discussable that's a circle to have to take a short break now but we'll be back in just
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a few moments stay tuned. prosecution will need to become almost. a full zone. where you push. this thread to find. somebody known to see do i mean yeah and you know i mean political pressure. the main conclusion of security jennifer nance with. the business models used by american corporations. to see to. see. solutions. in association with. new click on the song is it is just really closer to getting.
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an investigative documentary. ghost me on. welcome back to walt of parts with its image recalled a professor of government and russian studies at harvard university professor colton the national security adviser john bolton is expected in moscow within the next few days and the speculation in this country is that he is going to try to explore how macho freshness increasing pivot to china could be adjusted oh perhaps reversed. how much do you think the kremlin could accommodate the tump of
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ministration on doubts wrong. i'm not aware of any information a book the agenda for this meeting that's a closely held secret i guess they'll talk about that but i doubt very much that the american ministration thinks that russia's going to you know quickly reorient its position vis a vis china i assume though also talk about ukraine you know where you know we have the situation kind of heating up in a rather alarming way i have to look quite a number of questions and other therefore we go there let me ask you one more question about bolton because he is expected to visit a number of former soviet republics which used to be the arena for geo political. contest and between russia and the west has denmark and policy in the euro razor excluding ukraine changed to trump i don't think it's changed dramatically but i mean a think that we saw. a certain decline in american eagerness to get involved
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in these affairs under the obama administration but that then the trend is a direct of course by the ukraine crisis. no but ukraine of course is a very important section and it's it's an area where there's a lot of political pressure on the administration to do things that they might otherwise prefer not to do the reason i ask you that is because since the mind on events in ukraine the if you are there former soviet republics armenia and was best done changed power in one case through democratic pro-democracy protests and my perception is that both russia and the west dealt with those situations very very carefully how do explain that do you think that's an example of lessons learned from the ukrainian crisis well i don't know about the change of power in his breakfast and i mean it to happen when the leader you know at this prime minister replaced him it's more i think the change in policy in program on the part of the new leader replacement itself was kind of a nonevent but yes i mean. i think russia's stakes are much higher than american
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stakes in the generally russia has been you know. making no one favorable comments about this sort of mini person and that's that sensible i'd say the more interesting case though as you mentioned is our media so you know there's a learning maybe on on several sides the united states seem to have been minimal minimally involved in this whole process process russia observed with some anxiety i suppose but it in the end didn't interfere moreover the army since themselves i think. agreed that the last thing they wanted to do under the circumstances was provoke russia and so i don't know where armenian foreign policy will eventually end up but it's certainly you know they've been careful to to maintain sort of a good tone with with. with moscow and so there's indication here learning that all sides basically armenia there's another point which is that the government that was overthrown actually managed to get russian approval for signing significant
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agreement with the e.u. so it's not an association agreement actually it's not a full scale thing that the georgians and ukrainians but nonetheless it is significant and it it seems to demonstrate that there are people now in the e.u. as well as in moscow as in russia who see and maybe even welcome the idea that countries can choose to be at home in both of these worlds and don't have to make a black and white choice now. let me ask you about what's ukraine specifically in your book on their regions of that crisis you talk about russia's proclivity to conflate geopolitics and geo ideas and i think during the events in two thousand and fourteen to be it was so russia came up with its own geo idea of the russian walt the concept that it may be forced now to contend with. because there is a real threat of the russian orthodox churches being taking over either by
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nationalists or expropriate or is of a different kind. you mean in getting. you craig what do you think russia would loath more at this point to just sounded their russian world in ukraine or not to defend it or person putin made a statement on this last saturday after a meeting of the security council and the wording was somewhat analogous to the wording that was used during the korean crisis twenty fourteen so this isn't precedent i don't think they have a plan or much of a strategy at their root they're reacting to events. you know the ukrainians the government person calling his people have said repeatedly that they are opposed to. the physical takeover of moscow picture people they were opposed before and there were incidences there were a look i mentioned there will be but i think they'll be rolled to the low profile and probably mostly in western ukraine. so i think what russia will do at the
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outset at least is is you know caution moderation and hope for the best maybe in russia described this efforts to grant ukraine its own independent austin texas church as an extension they say a war that many in the west use in relation to russia's take over crimea do you see that as it geopolitical quid pro quo do you think there is any relation between these two events. i don't know i hadn't really thought about a parallel of that kind. mean it's it is you know it's a significant blow there are some who say that you know the the wise thing to do probably would have been to concede this way back in the one nine hundred ninety s. when it would not have been such a high conflict situation and then to probably to develop pretty good relations with you know a lot of selfless ukrainian church for the way did very very late and now it's coming you know in a somewhat calamitous and by oh by days you mean the ukrainians of the russians because obviously it's not. the russians who i initiate in this process right now know that i mean there was a you know
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a an element in orthodoxy in ukraine which one of the autocephaly from the very beginning. they approached constantinople and consent to know who wouldn't move because of moscow's objection so the idea is if russia had not objected so strongly in the one thousand nine hundred might have happened in a calmer way why do you see that issue has a reason now and not four years ago by dr in the middle of a pretty contentious and still inconclusive presidential campaign. well i mean i think it's political no question about it i mean the problem the the the problem or the challenge has been there for you know almost thirty years so why did it happen oh i think persian course or political advantage to himself but them you know he said from their point of view i suppose a normal politician. but it's clearly led to the to the elections next year i don't think there's any doubt about it now six months before the elections ukraine already has five declared and more than a dozen of presumed presidential candidates many of whom have higher approval
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ratings than the incumbent president do you think the specter of the so-called russian aggression that person could definitely relies on politically do you think it can tame the should just vibrant political competition in that country i think you give him an edge and i think he has an edge also from the fact that he's held this office for five years and things are so unstable and so unsettled in ukraine that people will. you know coalesce around a leader who can write a measure of stability that's essentially what happened in twenty fourteen we know that from survey evidence. something they forty percent of his voters said that a key reason that they voted for him was that they wanted somebody to win in the first round and not go to a second round of the election they wanted things to be settled but it's not to say i mean ukraine politics is very volatile and ukrainians often you know kind of disrespectful of authority so i don't think it's to be ruled out. you know that he's going to have serious serious trouble and in the second round who would who
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would he face he didn't have this problem twenty forty but he doesn't get fifty percent which he may not do in the first round you know he who knows the last time we talked you said that there had been the sounds of fatigue and frustration in the west with not only with viktor unocal which obviously but also viktor yuschenko who didn't fully delivered on the reformist agenda how do you think that sole purpose. is fairing in regard to the west. the she tends to get fairly respectful media treatment but. you know i think that the sun from the earth relationship with russia the most americans aren't that interested in what happens in ukraine i mean some are of course but it's the story of the church has been on the front pages but the done last for long so it's a kind of. back burner thing i think in american public opinion. and
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but to the extent that it has an image i think it's generally positive but hardly you know enthusiastic well i guess the point of my question is that there may be explicitly pro best and candid is there's no pro russian candidate in the campaign right now and there are people like yulia tymoshenko who has connections and there was there there is. mayor who also seems to be pretty liberally minded and it's one thing when you have to kind of choose sympathy it's between path of russia and free loving ukraine but when you have to choose between all nominally pro-west and can do this i think that would be much more difficult if there is a political crisis in ukraine another political crisis in two thousand one thousand how do you think the west the united states the u.s. should should react. well i heard how do i think they will react this is a trigger will all both reach well i think they should not interfere in the election they should let you cretins figure it out themselves as to what they will do my guess is that the the do the word that will count as stability and i don't
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think you're going to see any explicit acts of favoritism towards the more the more the election is of the contested the greater the chances that somebody else will win and then you'd have to work with the person whom you oppose during the election season so i wouldn't expect very much that is present person chooses to intensify military tensions on the border in an effort to prop up his electoral chances do you think either the e.u. or at the united states may try to dissuade him from doing that. oh i would think so absolutely i think the americans are surely doing that already yeah and you know i can't say what his motive motivation is for doing what he's doing there's an element of frustration i suppose desire to. probe the weakness of the local the two republics that are there which have their own you know internal problems and it's probably related to the delectation season as well but you know it's impossible to
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prove that but it is you know there's it's quite volatile i mean it's this is potentially very big trouble your book has been translated into russia and it's been very well received here at least in policy circles. how do you estimate it sounds if you're having to write another book on the on the end of the ukrainian crisis i guess that's the point summarizing of all of my questions. well i certainly hope it's not necessary i think though that. you know we are at a time when when things in eurasia are changing and where new alignments are coming into view that we don't on the outside understand all that terribly well so i think to continue to write about that would be would be a very interesting challenge and i'm thinking about things like the role of china the evolution of russia's attitude towards autonomy on the part of some of these countries. religious factors you know it's things are things are changing well professor colton thank you very much for being with us today that i hope the old
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round us and other interview when you have something you'd say i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going on our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here and i will depart. there. are. things. i've been saying the numbers mean something they matter the u.s. is over one trillion dollars in debt more than ten white collar crime stamped each
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day. eighty five percent of global wealth you long for the ultra rich eight point six percent market saw thirty percent in the first one is two years some with four hundred to five hundred trees per second per second and bitcoin rose to twenty thousand dollars. china is building two point one bill. ai industrial park but don't let the numbers overwhelm. the only number you need to remember it was one business show you can afford to miss the one and only film but.
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it's. really trying to. do. this hour's headlines stories crimea in the morning the first funerals are expected later today for some of the twenty killed and weapons they call agents are. also coming up facebook ticks down an anti semitic video for violating its hate speech policies but twitter allows it to stay online we look at how the social media giants differ in their standard as. the poll shows a nine full increase in the number of the.

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