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tv   Going Underground  RT  April 3, 2019 4:30am-5:01am EDT

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nato emerge after action in afghanistan many afghans are angry about the latest killing of civilians by u.s. troops and after gaddafi threatened nato near liberalism with the creation of an african petro currency threaten the dollar libya it has been ten days since mr obama ordered u.s. forces into combat in libya. nearly two hundred tomahawk cruise missiles more beijing and moscow angrily denounced nato which are neither lated africa's richest by capita country catalyzing the worst refugee crisis since world war two in europe by the time america first donald trump was president nato was under attack from washington let alone london the wider issue is that the e.u. has got very close to nato nato has been pushing very hard to expand eastwards inevitably russia is going to get very nervous if nato sets up places all around its borders with that man odds on favorite to be the next british prime minister and they chose days numbered of the alliances seventieth anniversary joins me now
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is michael stopford who used to be a nato deputy assistant secretary general he was also washington director of the u.n. and today he is now managing director of international consulting firm oxford analytical michael welcome to going underground so you don't have to be trump yesterday would stoltenberg to ask what exactly tomorrow we celebrating when they turn seventy anniversaries a strange things i don't know whether one would say celebrating but at least taking stock about thinking what the alliance all about i was in charge of communications at nato when the we had the sixtieth anniversary and it was of course a different time and i must say that relations between for example russia and the alliance were a lot better and more hopeful at that time because some would be surprised to realize that it may have started maybe there was no military bombardment of another country until kind of the berlin wall fell the idea is that the starting words of nato are about bringing together countries for. democracy individual rights and the
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rule of law so it's as much values based as as a military alliance i'd say you mentioned law. you know that most of the world as criticize nato for doing things against the law there was no un security council council resolution for the yugoslav bombing which is their first aerial bombardment campaign back in one nine hundred ninety one i know before you having to do communications with the organization i was with the un actually i don't know whether that's that's right i mean the relationship between the un and nato at that time were very close and it was kind of an introductory to integrated campaign if you will it was it legal. i don't know about that i mean i think one would have to go back and discuss exactly how that worked together and i must say that when i think of my un. one of the problems with the un is you know that it lacked a lot of in forstmann procedures which in principle are available to nato ok well i might go back to law in a secular you mention the word security which is
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a word used again and again in britain alone we have five hundred thousand dead from cancer access cancer deaths because of the bankers grazes according to the lancet ten thousand suicides bridge journals like so i mean isn't the real danger in the two nations. hasn't it the financial services not outside powers or anyone i guess what you're talking about there really is expenditure on defense and expenditure on important domestic pressing issues i mean is you know president trump is trying to get up to people to contribute up to two percent of their budgets well i think they have in the u.k. but in most other countries they've not two percent we're not talking you know huge amount of the national budget of course if you're prime minister you want to look after people's internal security you want to look after. and health care and i guess that for a lot of people defense comes fairly low on their list of priorities so it is indeed a bit of a tradeoff between how you how you manage national expenditures but then when it
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comes to what you're saying about why countries may not be going to the two percent you don't think it's because it's perceived even by may two nations to be an organization that acts outside the law no i don't think that i think it's religion in libya came later obviously i mean why do people vote in certain ways it's quite true that you know with all this talk about immigration and refugees that seems to be having a political impact all over all over the west or westerly because of libya yeah exactly particularly. when the libya campaign so it was a just you know in between is your leverage that was after but when i was at the sixtieth anniversary we certainly had to make clear to people why it was worthwhile belonging to this organization because it was not their top priority so we had to say you take peace and security for granted until it doesn't exist anymore but it's not that different from the e.u. not that different from and from the u.n. in cetera ok but the but always the u.n. abides by the law because if i were i would it breaks the law of rule international
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whereas libya there was no u.n. security council resolution that mandated needs remembers to bormann destroy africa's riches per capita nation if you want have discussion on international law i mean as you. no international laws such as it is is is a general assembly resolutions and then they may or may not be enforced by the security council and they may or may not go to the international court of justice the problem with international law as a whole is that it lacks any kind of of really effective enforcement but it's something we talked to international lawyers on this program quite a bit about thorough nato one of the same time perceiving the threat to come from russia and china has a situation where germany is busy doing nord stream to which donald trump has said it shouldn't because it endangered security italy is recognizing bilton road from china. these the dangers is italy and germany endangering nato by making alliances
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with the countries that so on that you know you insult them bug countries perceived as enemies i don't think you put is black and white and i said i would like to talk enemies and i'm certainly in favor and i was in my time and nato in favor of dialogue and cooperation including with non member countries not like to use the word enemies we worked very closely with russia on anti-terrorist programs of the program called stand decks that i was responsible for running and it was very successful for a few years then in terms of nato russia council for example i mean i was active the nato russia council of course it's been pretty much on ice for a few years the partnership for peace etc and of course and lots of your writing has not put it in that cove right racial context but then things have changed so dramatically since you were there at nato ukraine this cripple incident here i mean man we have a defense secretary actively saying things about. going away and of course talking
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about the lethality of weaponry i would not say that this is you know death definitively. a sort of ultimately confrontational situation there are many possibilities for working in certain areas where you can disagree on other areas and when i was with nato i was always in favor of dialogue i mean you can say that i mean some people might have criticized me for being naive or overoptimistic or whatever but we had some really good relationships including with russia on some really key programs and of course you know with this discussion about the i.n.f. treaty not being you know continued but the start treaty is coming up again for discussion in a year or two i mean these are issues that are far too important to let sort of everything be viewed for a confrontational person i think things are more in a state of flux than being definitively at a kind of very negative point do you think of the trump election in the first place and some of the words coming out of washington terrified the men in brussels. i
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mean president trump is known for speaking his mind in no uncertain terms right and you get some very strong remarks and cetera what i recall from when he came to nato the first time was his big push about expenditures and saying it isn't right that the u.s. should bad this amount whereas nobody else is coming up to that two percent only for four or five countries and i think that secretarial stoltenberg congratulated him on putting pressure on people to up their security expenditures and therefore contributions to nato i don't believe that since that time president trump has been particularly critical of nato if you go back to the days of sort of eyes and heart and truman when nato was founded they had very different views on the how this logic relationship going to develop maybe reading eisenhower and saying yeah this military industrial complex is the last thing well we need ok the military does to this or we. have i totally agree the military industrial complex has a lot to answer for because it has to be said that obviously we have the odds on
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favorite to be prime minister in this country jerry corbin long time critic who's called previously only abolition of nato i think now labor policy is not to not to say that as i said it's really considering. its position reserving nato spanish parties since the financial crisis we've had a whole range of being different and political approaches to security and it depends of course a little bit if you're on the more on the left side on the right side but i mean if you're talking about mr corbett and his positions i mean what about his position the e.u. how is that evolving people's positions evolve and change depending on what they see as the need at the current time and again you can also view nato in different ways but as you view it is a foundation that helps to keep the peace after all there's been no what peace exactly the places where. you afghanistan the war continues to this day libya is a disaster in ruins major loss in syria obviously it's nato originally somehow or other for all the. years of the cold war. we succeeded in not having anything
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worse than the cold war put it like that and that's not thanks to nato necessarily it's also thanks to great russian leaders and i mean i know that's not so popular to mention these names on our t.v. but i mean i'm sure that mr gorbachev is as much to be to be credited and praised for avoiding a gnostic end of the cold war as anybody on the nato side but somehow or other this did succeed and it's not a view shared by many russians the mechanisms in place managed to avoid a nuclear confrontation which certainly when i was in the un in the night and early one nine hundred eighty s. and we were seriously afraid of that i remember writing speeches against confrontation with the secretary general of the time michael steele for thank you thank you after the break with us back to petro poroshenko defeated in the first round of ukrainian elections we investigate allegations of increase. with ukraine's secret service on this week's biggest stories of.
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wrong. just don't call. me. out. and it. equals betrayal. when something find themselves worlds apart. she says to look for common ground. used to do crack when i was a little kid my dad he was like oh. so you know like what i
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needed when i was a baby but i had a bad. there's always been single mothers in african-american community service and slavery. i think it's more of a teenager's having kids and you can't expect a fourteen or fifteen year old first daughter to order for him that your father and he's a child. lost their place in. my car and breaking down i was unable to get to work on time so they let me go with my paycheck that i bring home i have barely enough to pay my car insurance.
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welcome back joining me now to go through some of the week's top stories as lecturer in practical sociology at middlesex university in rubble of dr lisa mckenzie lisa thanks for going back on your beat on for ages so the media obsession with bricks breezily advising the break up of big old it is b w c k b a beautiful and to those of the young the big thing bricks that you've chosen something from the mirror well yeah i'll vote she's chosen the big story d.w. pay child poverty. is a national scandal as it reaches full point one million so we've now got four point one million children living in poverty in this country not only child poverty what we. found out this week from the report was we've got increase in private pension a problem particularly women we see in the rise of pension aged women living in obsolete poverty again homelessness is rising child poverty is rising not only
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that the same time the mortality rate for working class people is dropping is plummeted now this is the story or the age of the easter you know this becoming more is really we do say to you you know this is a relative poverty it's only three point seven million in absolute poverty which i suppose of the cave like exist. that is the serious point they would make that it's only for and of course labor destroyed the economy yeah for now people are in employment but obviously wages of dobbin rising no one's buying anymore nobody is buying that anymore we cannot have this you know ten years ago this up and this is . lies at the door of a stereotypic it's absolutely lies at the door of nick clegg and david cameron of your charity was kicked off by the labor party obviously a way was the acceleration of austerity and of the way that the costs of the cuts
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of absolutely fell on the poorest people and then at the same time we've got these big organizations and companies moving in sort of vulture like into those communities and i'll name some of the mamas. sports direct boohoo we all know them and this is historically not as napoleonic wars that we see in this kind of wage stagnation is the figures but ok if these many millions of children don't make the news quite as big as the processes in westminster this did make something of it i don't know whether it was in yeah well in full tower cancer causing chemicals and all the toxins found on balconies uninstaller illness side of plays i mean the. this. blaze in britain i mean it's not surprising really i mean anyone that comports who went to together would say that if the heat that came out of this building and the plastics that were involved in and the materials that were
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involved were melting and we all saw that then of course there's going to be toxins we're a close element here in the sense that this is in a very rich poor the town is the poorest area one of the badgerys in europe but they're one of the riches. in the world would the rich in houses down the road from here be caring about cancer causing chemicals or you would feel and they would address that in the know or you would think so wouldn't you i mean you know i mean we go back one hundred years in. and when we are born diseases you know the rich start to move out of london and who knows what's going to happen in another five ten years of this from the say when they will be soon developers accused of segregating children at london and right where do we even stop i did a year long care outside what we called the poor dogs in east few years ago something similar was how and explain what poor do is they they are
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development where there are sort two types of tenants is one part and it's like family like this is what this vigil but this is for children we're taking this a step further the problem is is the people that live or the people have paid for their own houses or pay privately for their rent don't always want to live side by side in cheek by jowl with people who live in social housing so developers are coming up with all kinds of schemes and sort of. to make sure that the. private tenants don't have to come in contact with the social tenants and now what we're seeing is a further development with this because this is happening to children so the children a demographic time bomb all the. the children will grow up knowing the less than the children of the rich yeah i mean it. this is going to have a psychological effect on children of course if you are told that you can't go to this place you have no right to be
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a not place because you are not the same as though you know that is absolutely apartheid these sorts of developments are not just over the river they are all of europe the european union in fact property interests crucial to the european yeah you've written in this school of economics paper here about what we should again be focusing on brics rather than the processes down the road it wasn't march to stop the march to save for and. yeah the remain as or the people who wanted a second river and here i wrote this after they remain march because what i want them to do is i want them to start to think about not the details of bricks it and what's going to happen and what does the buck stop mean and you know world their kids be able to go on and erasmus trip what i want them to think about is where how we got here in the first place will you ask the question why is it that we didn't see a million people on the street. just yet. another issue in this case i suppose
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because it's very easy on us and i don't always blame the people that march in that when we live in a very individualized society where we've created individuals if you are living in poverty or if your children are living in poverty or if you have no house in or if your house is too expensive and you get kicked out of it in an individual our society that she will fault what they're not what they're doing here and they're marchers they're collectively thinking about what they don't want which is bracks it but they're not collectively thinking about the way that they perhaps would like britain so look we need to accept the the parliamentary system is absolutely broken the party political system. absolutely broken the parliamentarians that we've got are not fit for purpose the parliament is not fit for purpose it's literally dropping down. and actually we've got we could have a more interest in at this point in british history and british politics we could
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actually have a much more interesting debate about what we want to be as a country and people dr lisa mckenzie thank you well it's no joke over in ukraine comedian volodymyr selenski has beaten us back to petro poroshenko at the first round of ukrainian elections but after allegations of increased cia involvement on the ground in ukraine will either candidate be independent joining me now is the sylvia chan lee professor of peace studies or nonviolence of rhode island former soviet union election monitor nicholai and petro thanks so much nicholas for coming on so some we know from a leaked obama administration officials our coup is engineered by washington in the ukraine take it up to twenty nineteen how on earth as a comedian actor ended up looking like he's going to lead europe's largest nation it seems to be rejection overall rejection of the political system and the political elite in ukraine he has the added advantage of running not as him
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self but as his character you know very popular television serial called servant of the people where he gets to mark everyone. and to make himself look good at the same time yeah referring to that comedy series the character he portrays is quite clear in his disdain for the international monetary fund you've written about a pinochet candidate for washington. as for shanker is is he the antidote to a pinochet character someone who collaborated with the i.m.f. in ukraine we will have to see the ukraine is in a bind it's indebtedness will have to be paid out over the next twenty years and to the more prosperous ukraine is the more it will have to pay to the people who have and institutions that have lended it money. the more cost of it
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is the more it has to pay that's right because it's basically the system the repayment schedule involves our person or group a higher percentage of the g.d.p. as the g.d.p. rises until the entire sum is paid off and i know christine legarde was convicted in a french court but i thought she said the m.f. was changing not as much as some people would like i guess joe biden is in the news in the united states for his twenty twenty attempt at beating donald trump and his detractors are centered on the fact that there's a video evidence of him literally dragged manipulate ukraine with u.s. taxpayer dollars we have victoria nuland admission of five billion dollars of u.s. taxpayer money going to propaganda the soros company international and
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a source foundation hundred eighty million dollars from one nine hundred ninety in those days what is the extent of u.s. manipulation of what's going on in ukraine today most political analysts in ukraine assume it is extensive. and that only it's probably exaggerated and i see little interest the united states would have little interest in arguing that it is not that influential because the very hint that this or that candidate has the alleged support of the united states is and nothing to sway. do sway how people vote how people respond so there's little incentive to deny this although perhaps the war in the east could be used by a candidate for electoral advantage we don't get much news really from gone bad in
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the east you think there's a horse will try and. use the threat from russia more vociferously ahead of april twenty first i don't think he can be much more will sit for us than he has been his position on the bus region is very clear namely that there has to be a military victory against russia or or something that can be sold effectively as a as a defeat of russia. in order to. retrieve a reabsorb those regions and there should and there will be no need to go she ations as he puts it on on their knees with ukrainians on their knees. zielinski has said that he by contrast is willing to work with anyone and is willing to negotiate for peace in the bus so those are rather starkly
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different approaches to the east and to russia we know have a purported evidence from the former the ukrainian secret service operative and the other half of the vessel of playing the cia to plan sabotage in eastern ukraine do you think the united states is is there or let alone the i.m.f. obviously. and that it has to be very very careful so it is not visible in kiev or a little known in the donbass or other areas of this i think it is part of the proper function of intelligence agencies no matter what. country they belong to to gather information. accurate information about the country that they are observing. and if they're doing that job
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and doing it in an unobtrusive way again no matter what the country then they're doing their job properly and i assume that that is happening i have no knowledge of such such events but i certainly wouldn't be surprised and i would assume that they're not the only intelligence agency in that and other conflict regions trying to gain information and perhaps with additional assignments to influence events in one direction or another so if a leader does come to power in ukraine on the twenty first and wants to start negotiations over donbass with mutual talks with the moscow's people what do you think washington's reaction would be to that has washington we know to talk about to washington's arguably trump and those not so keen on his reproachful and mosco i'm not sure i can see advisers to
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the administration being torn on the one hand you can't argue for a continuation of the war because that would be warmongering on the other hand you have to argue that the peace can only be under certain conditions that are notably advantageous to ukraine and punishing to russia those two aspirations may not be reconcilable in which case. the new president would have to make a decision as to whether he is pursuing ukraine's interests first or washington's address first president like matter of fact here and that of his show will be back of that they would raise or make it a longer be u.k. prime minister don't let him touch my social media the on topic.
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after the previous stage of my career was over everyone wondered what i was going to do next the ball different clubs on one hand it is logical to sort of go home fields where everything is familiar on the other i wanted a new challenge and a fresh perspective and i'm used to surprising people of us all why not if you think. i'm going to talk about football not the or else you can think i was going to go. by the way what is it that sliding here. they're bred for a single purpose. they have a superman. they start training very young.
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eight months of intensive schooling. rats. and they save lives. and. young elephants have come to us soft. myspace lee brutal clutching incidents because sadly the baby elephants often do see their mother as the need be killed but also be cut off unfortunate. i do believe and laugh and smile i see it's a nice little once they all say so next precent changes. don't seem to be. a comedian has won the first round of ukraine's. residential election. doesn't have
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strong policy positions maybe that was his greatest appeal though he made it clear corruption is ukraine's biggest challenge fixing ukraine's very serious problems as you know. as spain struggles with the sheer number of newcomers arriving by sea smuggling gangs cashing in on the refugee crisis an investigative journalist shares with us a rare interview with one of the human traffickers involved. over porcelain. dolls in two thousand from two four thousand you heard the totality fifty plus we're working to hear it because probably before. the u.s. supreme court turns thousand deaths row inmates appeal for a painless death saying the constitution does not entitle him to violence.

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