tv Worlds Apart RT July 4, 2019 8:30pm-9:00pm EDT
and that's a very good question but it was not only rhodes a visit to some obscure russian m.p. who more actually i never. had heard of him before and. actually many of my russian colleagues never heard of him before that georgian public especially the younger generation got fed up with the author to speak cause i will forward this they failed to ways of the democratic reforms they failed us economic reforms as well and finally is the result of the mr governor who actually don't blame him personally for anything he was told to take seato the chair of the parliament and that's what he didn't know about thinking that people simply were shocked when they saw russian communists and let me tell you one thing during the soviet to know we georgians in the 1st in the 1st place we had who was cohen is as such a note as such was a proper behavior of the soviet union but coom his regime that's what's actually made always made us very unhappy and when when so russian conus sitting in the
chair of the parliament german parliament of georgia it made people simply mad you know because then everyone realized that this government has failed with every think and now they allow some russian conus to take seat of the chair of the jordan probably parliament where independence was actually. declared mr mr. let me ask you specifically about that because we are fresh of the g 20 summit in japan where the canadian prime minister casually to deceive the russian president but it would be easy on take to suggest that justin is somehow imposing himself on russia i'm not a psychologist but it seems that there's a there's something bigger i'm beneath all of this yes because you know or japan and kind of. they have peaceful relations and in georgia as you know as you might know in no way believe that to. say things that our territories. part of our
territory has been annexed where local pride by russia that's how it is in a way and it's a young generation who came to the streets this is a generation of the russian georgian war i believe myself for example i believe i belong to the generation of 9 april 19th 89 when. demonstration in tbilisi and you know that something is that something like this happens in your formative years you know then you will become where i want to be counted a tour and now this young generation simply they don't. unfortunately i would say they don't speak russian troll and they are not interested in russian for them russia is a hostile power russia is a state led by a certain government not russian people let me just say that's what i find very ironic about this young generation of georgians that you've been referring to why rallying against these supposed russian interference is that they do themselves by using russia as a factor in that domestic politics they're doing exactly what they like to accuse
dick robin off we'll talk about the russian reaction later reach you personally describe this clumsy but 1st of all i want to know if you think the georgians themselves the government decide the hospitality industry did they play it smart the whole debacle we differentiate between ordinary russians and and or official moscow you might know that nothing nothing happened lately to the russian tourists in georgia they still feel safe and secure and say you can see they're walking in the center of tbilisi and what the young people did to now and in a way different of their behavior was childish you know they defied or printed in russia and russians and the russian government reacted in my opinion very very clumsy clumsy it is so to say they did it because they simply do not know russia told they do not. mean you know if you are sequels you're arguing that the crime and has grossly over 2 reacted i you prepared to say the same about your compadre it's who. to the streets with
a fancy of chance with placards asked russia over something that russia has nothing absolutely nothing to do with i agree russia has nothing to do is go real about russia has to do something with a military base which is you know in 40 kilometers from kept them from japan this is capital of georgia for example yes i think yes russian i've been making this point for us but russian authorities overreacted by this russian authority this russian government on our side it was ordinary people young generation once again that's not our government that's young generation that's what's they doing all the emotions but look if the russian people were to take to the streets here in moscow chanting sexually explicit and sexually offensive slogans about your president. i would expect the leadership of my country to at least say that this is not appropriate and this has nothing to do with a diplomat democratic expression this is basic decency aren't the georgians bound
by it when it comes to russia where you know actually i don't see any reason why i would rush why would or new russian chant anything about our president because our president has done harm them in any way as you know but i agree a way across the behavior of our demonstrators have been in a way in a way childish but that's young generation like they almost children know that's it to know what can you expect from them once again there is a generation of the russian georgian war and for the last 70 or so as their relations have been normalized they will think actually at the same time. they were the russian government has not done absolutely anything to change anything in. the end i understand why well that's russian government is not ready to take back who nation owes its territories and they stand it very well but the same time was the last 70 or since the georgian dream came to power and the georgian dream is if friendliest garman's a russian can. russia can ever have in the military in my opinion unfortunately the
russian troops have been moving the dividing line the lines that divide south city and the rest of georgia inside our territory why i think it was done at the request of both south and has and governments think they are just as bitter with you as you are with the russians i mean you have you will have to recognize that these people do not want to see the georgian authorities there and it was the case long before the 2008 of war you know that better than me that conflict began all the way back in the ninety's i don't think anyone believes that you know the russian authorities have to listen to the so-called said 10 or 30 maybe vice versa would be more appropriate. well a couple of years ago there was an agreement signed by both russian and georgian authorities to you how to meet the creation of trade corridors through these breakaway republics and for the kremlin i think you have to realize that was a big stab there was supposed to be some trade that would be monitored by an
independent suisse company that would have been a step forward do you think the georgians have utilized the support units enough as far as i know our government has done its best you know to make this corridor work . the ball is on the russian side as i know i guess the russian side did take that ball and they interpreted the vans recent events in the georgian capital as something very offensive now you previously said that there is absolutely no threat to the russian tourists in beliefs and yet we've seen some videos on you tube of people in tbilisi how rassinier russian family in a car with russian number 75 years ago this video is 5 years old right of the. 2014. then accession of crimea well maybe that media is all but there were also some news about some georgian cafes introducing a surcharge for the russian patches and i'm sure those incidents are extremely. and
i personally don't agree with their policy absolutely but you are not you are now that the president prime minister of georgia if you want these incidents to remain isolated wouldn't you expect some authority to come forward and say that something like this is not acceptable i would do it i would do it but i think that now our government is in shock you know they're in shock and all they care about is to survive as you pointed out russia has actually tried to rebuild its relationship with georgia and i think it kept it primarily to the economic and human side there was very little if any politics involved. why are those charges of imperialism aggression interference i being rehashed right now when the only thing georgians have been getting from russia flavor is the money of our tourists of our investors all of our consumers with absolutely no political strings attached. yes i agree but once again let me repeat myself. we feel very positive vote or going to russians
about tourist by the same time for the last 70 years russia could not or could at least not to move the dividing line into georgian territory for example and at least russia could discuss for example the militarization of this also said here why would russia need a military base in 40 kilometer from to elicit people keep asking these questions georgian government actually has done quite a few goodwill gestures i mean who came to power 7 years ago for example in georgia and dream. aloud russian t.v. stations. i broadcast on georgian territory and system stations they were a card you know that they want to tell out of a war they'll need to work on military sort of 2nd dream government actually released a russian intelligence officer from georgia in prison in 2013 and georgian government green going to try to participate in such olympic games so if you let
a few who do gesture being made on both sides i hope you would they agree yes and unfortunately in russia has not done anything to change a little bit he started scoring south city from professor shushan he did those are not the things that you can do discuss with the population those are the things you discuss among the governments and they require a lot of preparation what we are talking about here is the outburst of has silly t. some psychological projection as you describe it the frustration with the local government being imposed on to russia you know this is something that the georgian government also has to deal with this is what we are talking about i have no doubt that our bilateral relationship is very complicated but why did the georgian government reach benefited from russian it cannot make out the beach why she didn't do anything to preserve what has built by now. then shock and they were all they
care about the survival in the 1st place and plus you know i think this. i read you know. how much georgia with new russian sanctions and sometimes they look at they come up with fantastic figures like to be out in dollars well. i think georgia will suffer of course some damage but not that much definitely and let me tell you one thing in 2006 russia impose sanctions on georgia but it didn't dream georgia's economy and you russians you should know that for the sanctions actually in the end of the day they don't through new york because russia now is under the western sanctions ok well professor sharon should music hold that thought to be returned right back to you after a short break. is
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welcome back to worlds apart but door negotiation needs they had the school of international relations at the georgian institute of public affairs professor needs just before the break we started talking about the russian response to events in georgia and i know you you believe that sanctions don't work but i personally think that the kind of measures russia introduced in response to those protests in the threats that it received is nothing of the kind that russia has with the e.u. or the united states even i think it's far more similar to what russia has been cherokee in 2015 short term but very abrupt and very painful limits on trade me actually worked well because turkey came about within
a couple of months and the 2 countries were able to rebuild their relationship very quickly but to be the new sounds of caution do you think that's likely in the case of georgia and the 1st and let me tell you one thing. i don't believe that most of the russian tourists visited georgia lately life in the last 7 years they will be discouraged now and i think most of them will keep coming to georgia despite the sanctions because they believe the door to a safe place a door and they actually love georgia the damage done to georgia economy will be it will be. is not going to be that big by point no comparison to. the turkish case i believe i like that turkish government georgian government simply will be unable to make any goodwill gestures now to work moscow because the turkish government they can't afford it georgian government simply cannot afford it because. georgian public opinion believes that georgian territory applied by russia
there's a huge difference between turkey and georgia still nevertheless i believe that moderates from the both side millicent moscow i think they could restore what has lost all the last 2 weeks i think it's still doable. well according to the georgian ministry off tourism this whole debacle may cost georgia around $700000000.00 reach by my own cultivations is roughly 15 percent of the country's bodges for this year the russian tourists accounted for about a 3rd of all foreign visitors do you think the people who framed russia as an enemy and we heard that not only from the young people you keep referring to but also from the president herself do they understand and acknowledge how much georgia is actually getting out of fresh i don't know i don't know a thing that. they believe that their way on there is more important than money
honor is also important for us when he's your people chant offensive sexually offensive slogans about our president it's also stance if regardless of whether you voted for human not you can consider yourself a friend and not come to georgia of course i understand it for the world but some russians may still come to georgia if you are no russians come to georgia i believe georgia will survive i would like to have more options coming to georgia because let me tell you one thing for us russian tourists it's not in the 1st place about economic benefit it's about political benefit the more i come to georgia the more understand that georgia actually can be a very good friend to russia and what has been done they can. openly support their president separatists in the war between georgia. and one has been done in 2000 and . 8 it was a grave mistakes done by some politicians but i think george is
a great country and georgian people are great people but when you speak about mass tourism i think you have to recognize that sure some people who want to go to georgia will still do there and there are no ban on traveling to georgia specifically but that will cost much more and mass tourist is far more likely to find. ah there are cheaper and less politically sensitive destinations of which there are plenty i mean there is quite a competition for the russian tourist and i think that's why the of the reasons why the russian government is using that to understand i understand but i don't think that it true it is going to ruin georgia trust me it's not going to happen because the one. myself again in 2006 my church sanctions were imposed on georgia and in 2007 we had 12 per cent of g.d.p. gross of course we had different government but still it's not about ruining georgia nobody wants to ruin georgia are you sad that one of the benefits of the russian tourist coming to georgia is to see that you know we can actually live in
peace as well in this team goes for russia don't you have to treat it with the same respect that you demand for yourself i mean why is it ok to treat russia like that because i mean to be honest with you there are lots of historic grievances on the russian side with regards to georges well i don't have to remind you that there are many georgian leaders who sent millions of arkan patches to the gulags and yet somehow we don't blame that on georgia but i mean they by little history is very complicated it should be shouldn't really be used like the. atomic bomb or the soviet to do let me live. now in russia that's not true according to. public opinion polls. stalin was over to the great one of the greatest russian of all times as i remember that's an indication and many political scientists interpreted that as an indication of russians striving for about a rule of law rather than striving for. sanctions or the use of institutional
violence so the point the point being short is that we also have grievances towards you don't we deserve from the georgians some basic respect some basic decency i understand but. do you understand but i mean i don't hear any opinion makers in georgia to make up. and that if if we want to keep good relationship productive relationship with russia perhaps we should to be framed from using this country in such a way in its own political turmoil in its own domestic politics i understand but that hasn't been done by georgian officials that has been done by young generation who once again unfortunately don't know anything about russia they don't like russia for understandable reasons and for the last 7 years. done anything to change somehow the status quo. that would not have happened trust me so really the opening of the russian market this is what's essentially not enough to win the hearts of
the young people you know those young people don't care if some georgia winemaker sell their wine in georgia that's not a point you know the point is territory as well but i mean if the 1st 15 percent of your budget comes from those wind cells that perhaps they should care i mean that's basic economy and somebody who covered the 2008 war from symbolic i can tell you that the georgian behavior there was pretty horrendous as well and we all know how that war started so let's not rehash those same arguments the point is that you keep telling that russia hasn't done much but russia has actually tried to move to have do you think it still makes sense for russia to make any outreach gestures they say in this way you know russia is a great power and i think great power. has more responsibility. should be more tolerant and more responsible that's what the dog george w. bush that. you were saying that george is more democratic than russia there is no competition here as long as your people like your country and our people like our
country i think even. i didn't say that in one of your articles you pointed out that there is actually a silver lining in this whole debacle that. georgia's current government is actually agreeing to reform. the system more quickly. had of schedule why is that important that's important for him or her to develop into not because this electoral system that existed but still exists actually in all the new system has done it hasn't been changed it was pretty unfair it gave for any warning party huge advantage and the georgian ram actually they promised to change the system to 40 proportional one back in 2012 because coming to power then it had been almost. almost everywhere in the post soviet union of course they did not keep their promise but now they had to make this concession there is
a popular trope i think in many former soviet republics as well as among some western policymakers that russia is the main hurdle for democratization of the post u.s.s.r. and i think to some extent the trip was rehashed by the young protesters you keep telling me about that it is russia that is sort of preventing georgia from being about herself i want to ask you for the current situation in georgia when you are essentially ruled by an unelected oligarch actually need gave to some extent. i don't blame russia for all the fail or for democratic reforms in georgia differently of course that we would benefit much more in fresher or was a more democratic country that's not to meet before us to decide you know don't you think that perhaps this whole argument about what the russian m.p. did in the georgian parliament i mean isn't it all to me doesn't it doll to me to go down to the question of the georgians filling themselves like
a victims of either russian aggression or russian imperialism and won't they be able will they be able to move forward without shattering dot kind of victimhood complex some nation. complex and some nations have you know post-imperial complex as you know and i know either that or want to have some. well the last 2 weeks you know for ma and pa against this former colony you know and both defended suffering from i think to some for some complex without any provocation from that former colony seriously after everything we've discussed you still hold on to that view what kind of talking about this was a young generation and there was no one behinds and definitely not the usa definitely and i was the state department to know as you might know you know i'm erica has no i'm just there and i miss it i suggested any american army and i'm never suggested that but i think georgians do you have to take responsibility for
for the our own actions and over the last what's happened over the last 2 weeks will come in hard georgians far more than russians and i'm not saying that with pleasure i'm saying that with great regret because i think this is a great country and i would laugh more if my people to see your great culture your great people and your great democratic transition to be fair and well let me tell you one thing and now i hope that the with this new proportional system i hope we will elect a much more. competent government and our policies will be much more comprehensive and it will make sense well mr shares and you can bet best of luck with that we have to leave it there but i really appreciate you being with us today and sharing your perspective thank you very much for that thank you i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to see you again same place same time here on the world's apart.
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