tv Cross Talk RT July 8, 2019 11:30am-12:00pm EDT
welcome to cross town where all things are considered peter lavelle as u.s. russia relations remain in the deep freeze europe is taking a different path when it comes to russia some are calling it the new thaw also china calls out the u.k. regarding hong kong indeed old colonial habits die hard. cross talking some real news i'm joined by my guest here in moscow and he is a professor of the higher school of economics as well as author of the decay of western civilization and the resurgence of russia and we're also joined by marcus papadopoulos in london he's the editor of politics 1st magazine our gentleman cross-talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated let me go to markets in london an interesting phenomenon that's been going on now for a number of months or maybe since the election of donald trump but we have we just recently had blood and we are putin in italy meeting the pope in
a tally and leaders of the parliamentary assembly of the council of europe that i'm a big fan of the organization has finally given the russian delegation. voting rights back and other. elements that have to do with their membership germany is determined that the north stream too will be finished the gas pipeline we have president mccrone speaking very bluntly that. europe needs a better relationship with russia i mean add this all up it is a thaw of some sorts isn't it go ahead marcus. well pater i believe that there is a distinct possibility that once britain exits the european year then brussels and moscow could improve that relationship now why is that well firstly britain has long been saved by many in paris and berlin as america's trojan horse brinson relays sensitive information from what is
discussed in the european union to washington secondly it was the efforts it was the last being on behalf of america by britain in 2004 same that push that puts enormous enormous stress pressure on the germans and the french to put a new sanctions on russia the germans and the french and the italians have a very good relationships that we've russia and they did not want to place those sanctions by because of threats and in part they relented and they placed those sanctions on russia now in 2019 britain is scheduled to leave the it will that is where there will be an opportunity for russia and the european union to improve their relations and it's certainly it's in the interests of the e.u. to improve relations with russia why because of the message amounts of trade and
investment between the european union and and russia and also the u. does not want to be on the front line of a potential war because of america animal so it's written and if you're saying this to me earlier here i mean we were in the european union ideals with russia though the british like to always be 1st in line to be have a hard line with this with briggs it coming right now the french the germans the a town. maybe not necessary like countries like poland or the baltic republics but they're beginning to realize that there's going to be a new page that has to be turned here and they want to take the initiative they want to be able to propose instead of just having to have to deal with ending american sanctions which as marcus pointed out was never really particularly popular on the continent and i think there's also a sentiment now that the sanctions will sooner or later fall apart because there's
a growing opposition to it and with the british leaving us well i think there is there's an interest now to negotiate how this confrontational and rather simply be forced to see the sanction fall apart so at least it will use it in some form of negotiations but i think a big part of this is also increasing recognition that sanctions have failed because sanctions you sanctions are constant european union far more than it has russia very much so and what the sanctions have put in for 2 reasons the 1st will be if you want to change the policy behavior of the other side but in this instance what so what tends to be neglected is that the west was active just revisionist power and russia has been the status quo that is it reacted to the toppling in the ukraine so to tell down to the territory the world that position it already had been placed like hermia it stop the west from toppling governments in syria so by being the status quo power if you want to change the behavior it's going in forest for surrender so it's not stand in the way of western expansionism so russia's.
drawn this red line and just try to be patient so you can't really do much in the aspect of the 2nd purpose will be simply to punish russia to weaken its economy and it really get into irrelevance but the problem here is it would have worked 20 years ago but now china russia is looking towards china and other partners in the east so it's diversifying its technology it's industries and home station core the most important substitution import substitution also developing is on campus it is capabilities to diversifying its use of currencies transaction systems to. with banks so across the board economic connectivity with the west is broken so now coming to the recognition we constantly have this escalation dominance where we want they can choose to reestablish relations with russia because a lot of this trade a lot of this economic connectivity is ordered lost and it's gone to the chinese so it's there is time to reconsider you know what have we actually done here what are we have achieved and look for a better path so let's go back to london marcus i mean how much is this
a reaction to donald trump this is coming into play here i mean the we see the united states with donald trump demanding that europe relegate its energy security to the whims of american energy companies which of course. leaders like angola merkel if she goes out the door her the people that will the woman that will follow her is going to have the same thing because germany is defending its national interest i mean this is some kind of tipping point right now where the europeans are realizing they have to defend their national interests because they're men and their national interest is not being defended by the united states we're actually just the opposite he wrote in their national interest markets in london. well stemming from the ukraine crisis in 2004 saying little asians between the european union and america then became expense even under barack obama but it is absolutely
true to say that since donald trump answer at the white house that tense relationship between brussels and washington has been activated all the more so and that surely way donald trump has actually pushed the european union at close to the european union that really shot itself in the foot by placing their sanctions on the russians $6000.00 i helped at the then and i still hold that there is a use such sanctions would cool short term pain for. russia and they also gave an opportunity to domestic so that the rest. which was an old sense but for the rest well it's in the u.s. union they are still suffering someone they know yet so you ask ask the polish ask all farmers ask them what happened to them ok exactly you know you know and. glenn i mean i have been in a bizarre way actually been
a supporter of the of the saying speakers of the reasons that mark has just told us i mean how do you live here for so long and up to 2014 i heard successive governments saying we need reform we need to modernize we need to do so many things in 2014 the gauntlet was thrown doubt they had to do all of those things that marcus just told us this is made russia stronger and russia's position musician is stronger and interesting lee as marcus pointed out u.s. policy is driving china and russia together and now as we say in this program here it's pushing europe to be closer to russia this is a net feel for the united states if they wanted to take on china and russia and the european union all at the same time and strong said bolton we want to fight wars all simultaneously all over the world ok that's a losing proposition yeah but you know also. in 2014 when the u.s.
was able to put pressure and come in syrup. but that was by their own words by the way to twist europe's arm in order to accept sanctions on russia this was under the obama administration which was more measured now since then what has happened while americans are pushing their principle trying to twist their arm again to go against a trade war against the chinese they're pushing them to target the iranians to break the treaty they're also help trying to get aboard with the venezuela which hasn't really panned out to a rival so and also now of course putting sanctions against european some self or at least raising tire of so. so it's all this new frontline so i think for the appeals to keep all keep open the front line against the russia you know in unity with united states it's i think it's correct to point out i think it is less appealing now than it was in the past and then in regards to the to the benefits of russia i tend to agree with that as well like it's been painful for russia as well
the sanctions a lot of investment the should have been making a has been made but you know the silver lining would be that. russia is kind of the industrialized us became too dependent on exports of natural resources and simply became too convenient to import to manufacture goods develop technology instantly there was a lot of complacency is very much so and you see that russia has been forced to to reverse this to develop its own industries to modernize so. so a large extent this is been quite beneficial in that it was very hard to get the business community on board to do these painful reforms but now thanks to the you know the europeans the americans these reforms were essentially forced upon russia and a lot of good has been achieved now a lot of. industries didn't have in the past are now growing so we give 30 seconds to the markets from a dish it out. there is whilst there is a distinct possibility of an increase in sync relations between the e.u.
and russia one must never underestimate the and no most americans lately tell you that the euro yeah it's an economic and security so the americans have the have the potential to scott but any child so big and improvements in relations between the e.u. and russia well i'm not so not and i'm not is that pessimistic here i think there's a lot of things in play here all right we've run out of time here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on some real news staying with our team.
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what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line when they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or somehow want to. have to do like to be press this is what the 43 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the wives of our. guests it. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing some real news.
referring to what's going on in hong kong just refresh our memory here what was democracy like in hong kong when it was a colony of the u.k. go ahead. well the response of the british governments to the violent protests in hong kong is a reminder that the british imperial mindset did not die with the british empire and watson invests it well we live in today 8 where britain which committed some of the worst genocides in living history such as the native american such as the irish such as the out originate and politicians and journalists today both consider both conservative and liberal alike a genocide tonight is ot lecturing china about human rights in hong kong hong kong is an intake part of china but it was once a china it was once a british colony and let's just remember how the british acquired its hong kong
yeah they acquired this chinese region through the 1st opium war in which the british empire went to war against china in order to achieve 2 objectives namely to floods the chinese markets we've o.p.m. and to steal chinese territories so there is no reason why anyone in china should take any lectures about human rights from british politicians and british journalists and let's just look at what those protesters in hong kong can protest that's a big issue which would say people who have committed crimes in hong kong sent to the mainland for trial where there's nothing wrong with that if someone commits a crime in jersey or in guns a then they could be sent to the british mainland for trial you know the channel islands are parts of britain hong kong is part of china what happens in hong kong
is an internal chinese matter and has nothing to do with anyone well though is it it might break british politicians seem to feel differently and claim it when i find you know i. i'm all for peaceful protest absolutely ok and i'd like to point out at the protests of the yellow vests are treated much more harshly then the protesters in hong kong maybe a topic for another program here but you have these protesters breaking in to parliament violently and then they hoisted the colonial flag what is going on with that. well it's. obvious it goes beyond what you would call peaceful protests. i guess that's where some of this apocrypha comes in you mentioned france but they're also the incident that catalonia where they actually if people had their heads cracked open to the point brutal for wanting to vote so so in europe we have our own issues as well and all of this start of course with the extradition
bill that citizens can be extradited to mainland china but in the european union you have similar extradition and these are in between actual states while this happens internally with. your with within china so. there is obviously some hypocrisy there but it also goes back to the way you frame the language because when we talk about what happened in france we talk about the rioters when we talk about hong kong there are protesters but obviously the 2nd they broke in and the storm parliament. the protester what about the flag thing that's what i don't get ok i mean they it is universally internationally recognized as a one country we have these 2 systems one country is this a call to return to colonial rule well i guess that made it more inappropriate for the british to respond because by hosting the british colonial flag obviously that's a challenge to the return of britain's colonial possession and returning it back
to china so for the british for he didn't have democracy they were a colony ok and i think. let me go back to markets here i mean this is what you know i find what will during here i mean they there are these protesters some of them very violent are are calling for a modicum of democracy or rule of law everything that you know you and i could agree on here but they what they want to look back to the colonial period will explain to me how democratic was under the british i think our viewers would like to know. well in terms of how democratic concomitant was when it was a british imperial possession it's quite simple the people in china in hong kong with dictates it to buy london yes of course the british they built an interest and economic infrastructure in hong kong they introduced the civil service but that was
only that was only to a paid people in hong kong who was in the british was long wanted at the end of the day was always implemented at the end of the day in hong kong but hong kong is a chinese territory and it was savagely taken away by the british so in china and these politicians and journalists in britain who are coming to the eights all those violent protests this well i have a question for them how they responds if a protest has entered forcibly entered the house of commons and ransacked it i don't think they would be showing any symptoms peter better there is no difference whatsoever what happens in hong kong and i actually said peter i'm all in favor of peaceful protests but those protests were violent they showed no respects for chinese law they showed no respect for the parliament spilled in it and also as you
rightly said i thought it was very telling how those violent protests this unveil to the rest of the well hong kong's british colonial era fleck you know clinton but this is really a function of domestic british politics here ok and looking back to a different era ok of. british rule in colonial rule i mean in their harkening back to this i mean and they i mean this is we is this an internal political affair for the conservative party or i think for 2 reasons one is you have that the internal power battle now for who's going. next prime minister and i think the fact that jeremy hunt is the one who went forward. it's quite telling because he doesn't really have a chance against boris johnson so. really stands out as this great statesman so i think for him to kind of elevate britain up there putting china in his british imperialism ok is that
a winner and i guess the other 2nd appeal which would be in britain at the moment there is this sense of relative decline the do have. they are trying to find their new place in the world especially with working with it with bricks it's so are they going to be. relevant in the years to come so i guess bringing britain back to greatness what better example take them back to the opium or when day especially could tell china what to do and assert their sovereignty over chinese territory so i would agree this probably some colonial mindset they're still ruling i would agree that the that they do have this treaty in terms of the translation china when they're 50 years they should gradually transition us they were supposed to have a certain autonomy obviously china wants to speed this up to bring them into a unitary state yes you don't want to drift away so you want to integrate the
country further faster while britain obviously seeks to possibly slow it down and. even harness some loyalties within hong kong towards british rule as opposed to from beijing so there is. the colonial aspect there definitely you can't deny. go back to markets in london i mean it seems to me that you know the a lot of the reaction particularly in the media is that. the legitimacy of chinese sovereignty is in question which is unthinkable for beijing that their sovereignty is of less value somehow then western sovereignty in the u.k. for example marcus. well let me make an observation. i have long felt that this sense of anglo-saxon superiority is not just imbedded in the conservative camp in britain it is also imbedded in the liberal camp in britain
the conservative party its politicians and its members hold very dear to the british empire the liberal camp of course it's likes to criticise the british empire in some respects but when it comes to a country like china they will always play out what they think is the best form of rule for the former british colony on call and that is a british system so that just reinforces a lot else feels like that this sense of anglo-saxon superiority luns through the books run straight at saints or liberals and conservatives alike in britain you know in the end where you know it's going to say the human advocating for common human rights a common humanity if you want the irrespective of national borders there's some virtue to this obviously to stand up for the democracy and you know civil rights of others but the problem is it it's also very instrumental to undermine the
sovereignty of other states and forget that in china sri just like to bet you know the cia was operating there for 2 decades and they'll check them out so i don't elaine is brother on the cia's payroll number knowledge that there was to uphold autonomy and even push for independence this or some you know because their love for tibetan culture and think it was because think is a tool to weaken and adversary so this is their one and that this incentive to win . it when they were resetting relations with china under it kissing or for using against the soviet union so so like all this claim calls for the markets they obviously have that underlying power interest driving at the time of their site. over the other that the reason why we would criticise chinese a transgression so much more easily than the western ones is you should not because the extent of the violation of human rights rather will be more the power interest that is. and i think that's definitely one of the driving this is going to go back
to london marcus 40 seconds go to you will finish it off go ahead. well there are a number of areas in china about that but if the americans and the british see as an achilles heel of the country and no one is the change i'd call france which is a mainly most which has a problem with islamists terrorists and chinese officials i've spoken to are quite aware that the americans and the british also holds in yes separatist islamist groups in that region as a way of trying to await the chinese economy and thereby weaken the hold of the communist state in china ok that with the we ended up on that note there that's all the time we have here many thanks to my guests i'm thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the see you next time remember across topples.
during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were working. there wasn't it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an expectation the things were going to get better. of there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america where shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack solidarity engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to know on. one set of rules for the rich opposite several from poor. that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will which will is dedicated to increasing power virtue of just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about
the modern civil. zation the america. the problem of the financial system cars from wall street throughout the rest of the world was so big that not just one central bank could make money cheap enough could create enough artificial money by itself and so the fed did collude did work together with the european central bank with the bank of england with the people's bank of china leader that was kind of separate story with the bank of japan and so forth to create enough money to put into the financial system to keep it safe for itself and ultimately what that did is a transferred all of that money into the banks into financial assets into burgeoning stock markets like like a ton of sort of crack into an attic up and up and never took it away and that meant someone else was going to pay on the other side and the people that paid on
the other side as everyone else in the world. will not obey the voice of the lord your god will be careful to do. all these courses shall come upon you and overtake you want to lead and then the white people just don't profit you and the point must be returned to them and you get rid of whites only problems will go. with them. as president of the physical little. girl. being tortured to death expression the elderly people in the. plane is somebody who might be enough to. make these wives or still find themselves. for the point of one of my teens and pre-teens all of us all sweat and blood. of.
what are you going to have for dinner should they be doing anything i'm asking for a night made bad feelings civil war in south africa easy never to. profit from war is there any chunk be in the tone of your hand to bleeding. you know world of big partisan. lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the
middle for the troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. the u.k. government orders an investigation after on the bar a single leak of diplomatic cables which described ultram said ministration clumsy dysfunctional. deeply insulting remarks made by a georgian t.v. show host the broad brushes president putin draw condemnation. both nation. launches a new strategy to conjure what i'd call the kremlin's malign influence drawing a sharp response from moscow which has prompted thing initiative russian propaganda also ahead. in the void.