tv This Week With George Stephanopoulos ABC April 17, 2016 10:00am-11:00am EDT
it. >> ted cruz punching back. >> we shouldn't be intimidating delegates. this shouldn't be controversial. >> we're asking team trump how far they would go to change the system. and team cruz about the charges they're perfecting the art of the steal. plus, empire state showdown. days before the new york primary, can clinton shake off sanders and clear the path to the nomination? >> we don't need another diagnosis of the problem. we need solutions. >> or will bernie score his biggest upset ever? >> we're just busting through. >> hillary clinton is here. exclusively. and, bernie sanders, live. from abc news, it's "this week." here now, chief anchor george stephanopoulos. >> just two days before the big vote here in new york. hillary clinton hoping to stop the sanders winning streak in her home state.
makes tuesday do or die. the high stakes made the last debate a shouting match. >> i'm sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn that you supported raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour. [ cheers and applause ] >> wait a minute. wait a minute. wait a minute. >> that's just not accurate. >> after the debate, both candidates left the empire state. sanders for the vatican and a brief greeting from the pope. >> he's a beautiful man. there's a radiance that comes from him. it was a wonderful moment to meet him. >> hillary to california for two days and two fund raisers hosted by george and amal clooney. back here in new york, bill clinton filled in. >> she was your senator, came here 47 times, did all those things i said, think what she could do if she were president of the united states. >> and sanders turned up the heat with his toughest ad yet. >> while washington politicians are paid over $200,000 an hour
the living wage to $15 an hour. $200,000 an hour for them. not even 15 bucks an hour for all americans. enough is enough. >> and hillary clinton joins us. from los angeles. madame secretary, thank you for joining us this morning. we showed the senator sanders ad. focusing on the speaking fees in new york. on fund-raisers in california. are you worried that those issues give him the ammunition me needs to take you on and take you down? >> no, i'm not, george. he knows very well that i've been supporting the fight for 15. that the whole movement behind the fight for 15, that is really fueled by unions and activists has endorsed me. so, look, let's look at what's really at stake here. we're having a vigorous back and forth about raising the minimum wage, which we both support. and the republicans don't want to do that at all. donald trump has said that american workers are paid too much.
campaign that is certainly hard-fought, there are going to be a lot of charges and all kinds of misrepresentations. but i don't think voters are confused by that. they know i stood by governor cuomo when he increased the minimum wage in new york. they know that i've been supporting minimum wage increases. and that i want to get from $7.25 to the highest minimum wage we have had nationally. and keep urging states and cities to go even further. >> part of the confusion is that thursday night, for the first time, you did say you would sign a $15 federal minimum wage into law. in the first debates you cited concerns about a $15 minimum wage. i want to show a debate in november. >> the overall message is, it doesn't result in job loss. however, what alan kruger said in the piece that you're referring to, if we went to $15, there are no
that's why i support a $12 national minimum wage. >> you cited the concern of alan kruger. in low wage areas, the increase to $15 would cost jobs. is your opposition still stand on substantive grounds? or are you for it? >> you know, george. i know everybody wants to make this some kind of big contrast. well, it isn't. you know, bernie sanders came out and said the legislation pasted in new york was a model for the nation. you know what that model is? it'sed a phased in minimum wage increase. to get to $15 in the city and surrounding areas. to get to $12, $12.50 upstate. but to be constantly evaluating the economic conditions. so there is no unintended consequence of lost jobs. that is what new york just voted for. and for federal legislation, if
understanding about how we have to phase this in. go. if the congress passes that, of course i would sign it. but again. i have to underscore, i think their campaign is trying to make something where there is nothing. the people who are behind the him. the people who i have worked with to try to raise the visibility about this important issue stand with me. and i want to do what has not been accomplished. that is to overcome republican opposition, including by the republican candidates for president, to finally give hard-working people the majority of whom are women, the kind of raise they deserve. >> that ad does hit the speaking fees that you have had to deal with so many times. and the question of whether you'll release the transcripts. even your strong supporter snort kirsten gillibrand, here
release the transcripts. what is the concern? releasing those speeches would show you praising wall street? >> no, i don't have any concerns like that. i'm concerned about a constantly changing set of standards for everybody else but me. we have certain expectations when you run for president. one of which is release all of your tax returns ever since you have been in public life. that's what i've done. 33 years are in the public domain. eight years are on my website. now, all of a sudden, there's a new standard. i've said, when it applies to everybody, you bet. i'll meet that standard as well. >> not until then, even though senator gillibrand said you will release them? >> well, in accordance with the standard that i've set, i absolutely will do. i've said that repeatedly. >> donald trump has a new nickname for you. listen. >> when i fly in, it's on my dime. it's on my dime. what does that mean?
the lobbyists. and they control -- they control crooked hillary. >> that's the new nickname. crooked hillary. your response? >> i don't respond to donald trump and his string of insults about me. i can take care of myself. i look forward to running against him if he turns out to be the republican nominee. if i'm the democratic nominee. what i'm concerned about is how he goes after everybody else. he goes after women. he goes after muslims. he goes after immigrants. he goes after people with disabilities. he is hurting our unity at home. he's undermining the values we stand for in new york. and across america. and he's hurting us around the world. he can say whatever he wants to say about me. i really could care less. i'm going to stay focused on the issues. because there are stark differences between where i think our country needs to be headed and where he would turn
when i talk about jobs, climate change, when i talk about equal pay, when atalk about a woman's right to make her own health care decisions and so much else, i know that he doesn't believe any of that. and that, in this campaign, he wants to set americans against each other. i'm not going to stand for it. >> one more issue came up thursday night. bernie sanders predicted he would win the nomination. then went on to say this. >> secretary clinton cleaned our clock in the deep south. no question about it. we got murdered there. that is the most conservative part of this great country. that's the fact. you know what? we're out of the deep south now. >> you know, president clinton called that a sneering reference to your wins in the south. and your supporter, congressman gregory meeks, said it was demeaning to black voters. is that how you took it? >> i don't know what he was talking about.
at map of the united states, the south was a part of our country like every other region. and i'm thrilled to have support. you know, when you win virginia, north carolina, georgia, florida, those are all states that we can put into play in the general election. when you win massachusetts, and ohio, and illinois, and missouri, and texas, and arizona, and nevada, and a lot of other places from the north to the south, from the east to the west, that illustrates how far ahead of him and why. because i value every voter. i'm not writing off any individual. i'm certainly not writing off any state or region of our country. that's why i have 2 million to 3.4 million votes more than he does. and, by the way, 1.4 million more than donald trump. because i want to be the president for all of america. i particularly want to support democrats in states that have been voting against democratic candidates for awhile now to rebuild the democratic party. we're going to try to make
we're going to fight hard in north carolina and virginia and florida. >> this race is getting increasingly nasty every week that goes by. is it getting harder to heal the party? >> no, i don't think so. you know, you remember, i went all the way until june in 2008. and i had a lot of supporters who were incredibly disappointed when i dropped out. but i mid le endorsed then-senator obama. i worked hard to convince my supporters to support him as well. i nominated him at the convention. and i moved for his nomination by acclimation in order to have a unified democratic party. let's keep in mind what is most important here. that is defeating whoever the republicans put up. i think the republicans will play all kinds of games. they're going to try to sew discord among democrats, between our campaigns. i, for one, am not going to be fooled by that.
in my campaign and hope to secure the nomination and to work to win the support of the voters who supported senator sanders. >> your senior senator here, chuck schumer, sponsored a bill backed by the 9-11 families that would give them the right to sue state sponsors of terror in federal court. it's opposed by the obama administration. they say it will expose the u.s. and officials to retaliation. who is right, senator schumer or president obama? >> i don't really know about that, george. i'll have to look into it. obviously, we have to make anyone who participates in or supports terrorism pay a price. we have to be aware of any consequences that might affect americans, military or civilian or our nation. so, i'm not -- >> you don't know about this? it's been around for several years? >> well, i know it's -- i know there's been an issue about it for quite some time. i don't know about the specific legislation that you're referring to.
it. >> okay. but you're not prepared to say now whether you're support it or oppose it? >> i can't. i haven't studied it. unlike some people, i i do try to learn what's at the core of any question before i offer an opinion, because you know, it's not enough to say what's wrong. i think you have a responsibility to say how you're going to fix it. >> finally, on fox news sunday last week, president obama defended you on the e-mail issue. saying he's confident. you didn't jeopardize national security, even though he said there was carelessness in managing your e-mails. have you spoke within president do you agree with his conclusion that you were careless? i appreciate what he said. of course, i never endangered national security. that's absolutely false. i said it was a mistake. it wasn't the best choice. had a private e-mail account. i think that what's going on will be resolved.
know. making sure that no one can raise any questions in the future. >> confident of victory tuesday? >> i'm very hopeful. i love being in new york. i love campaigning in new york. downstate, upstate, everywhere in the state. we're going to work as hard as we can. i want to elect democrats. i'm raising money to elect other democrats. i'm a democrat. i want to see us take back the senate. i want to see us have a very strong showing in the house. i want to take back governorships and state legislatures all up and down the ticket. so, i want to win in new york. of course. and i want to secure the nomination but not just for me, i want to bring along a lot of democrats because i want to protect and further the progressive agenda that president obama has worked for and that i believe in. >> secretary clinton, thank you for joining us. >> good to talk to you. thank you. let's get a response now
he's here live in the studio this morning. senator sanders, welcome back. you heard secretary clinton. implicit defense of her fund raisers in california last night democrats. by contrast, her campaign is saying that's something you haven't done. >> that's not accurate. we have, over the years, sent out a lot of letters for democratic candidates. >> not in this campaign? >> no. not in this campaign. but in the past, we have. and raised millions of dollars for democratic candidates. but i think the issue is, what is the future of the democratic party? and how does raising money and the way you raise money reflect that future? i believe we have to break away from superpacs. secretary clinton has several of them. she's received millions of dollars. $15 million in the last reporting period from wall street alone. let alone other special interests. we have done it very differently. we've received 7 million individual campaign contributions averaging $27. unprecedented in american history.
democracy? i don't think you do that by raising money from the top 1% and then say to working class people or the middle class, i'm here to represent you. so many people don't vote. why they understand that congress ends up working for the people on top rather than their interests. i think we need a revolution in this country. in campaign finance. that means overturning citizens united for the democratic party, it means getting more young people, working people in the process. small contributions, not big money. >> you heard her answer there to your latest ad in new york. saying your campaign is trying to make something where there is nothing on the minimum wage. >> oh, no. she's just not being accurate. i think one of the previous clips you showed indicated that. she has, at the begin of course the campaign, said we need a $12 minimum wage. i have said at the very beginning of my campaign, we need to raise it to 15 bucks an
that's the difference between the way we do politics. i'm trying to set a high bar. i'm trying to be a leader that says, let's go, america. let's move. >> why does she have the support of the fight for 15 movement? >> well, she doesn't have the movement. of working people. i've been on picket lines in washington, d.c., out in the street, out in the rain with those people fighting for $15 an hour and the right to organize. here's the point, george. the point is, it's one thing, as she just said, if a state passes 15, i'll be there. that's good. on the other -- the other direction is to say, i'm going to help lead that effort. that is a metaphor for what that campaign is about. i'm trying to be a leader, which says, we have got to take on big money interests in this country. we have to have -- join the rest of the industrialized world. and guarantee health care for
for all single payer program. we have to have legislation in which makes the united states not the only country that doesn't guarantee paid family and medical leave. got to make public colleges and universities tuition-free. we can do that. we're the wealthiest country in the history of the world if we have the courage to take on the big money interests. you can't do that if you're dependent on them for your fund-raising. the difference in the minimum wage discussion goes beyond that. i'm trying to lead this country in a different direction. what secretary clinton just told you is, well, yes, if state does it, i'll sign the bill. >> or if congress passes it. >> i want to lead that effort. not just follow. >> another issue that came up at the debate. the relationship between the united states and israel. here's what you said it should be like going forward. >> of course israel has a right to defend itself. but, long-term, there will never be peace in that region unless the united states plays a role
>> that kind of even-hand aid proech under president obama? >> i think he's done much better than his predecessors. i think we have a long way to go. i wasn't criticizing president obama. i was criticizing secretary clinton. she gave a speech to apac. a long speech. only one sentence to mention the palestinians. it goes without saying, israel, we have to protect, 100%. israels a right to exist, to live in peace, to have security. you cannot ignore the suffering of the palestinian people. and long term, the only way we bring peace into that region -- >> do you think secretary clinton has ignored the suffering of the palestinian people? >> i think if you listen to the speech. that was a major speech, she had one line on the palestinian people. i said, i think that israel has every right in the world to respond to terrorism. but i think in the gaza, it was a disproportionate response. you had 1500 civilians killed. i think you had 10,000 or so wounded.
response. you can't always nod your head to netanyahu. he's wrong on occasion. >> the head of the adl said that comment plays into the hands that israel is the main problem in the conflict. >> you can say what you want. i'm not saying israel is the main problem. you cannot ignore the needs of the palestinian people. in gaza, there is mass destruction not addressed. the poverty rate is off the charts. we're the united states of america. if we want to bring people together, we have to address those issues. >> secretary clinton says she's not prepared to take a position on the bill supported by the 9-11 families. the families responding to the threat by saudi arabia. >> they're outraged by the threat from saudi arabia.
dollars from the united states if that passes. what is your position? >> we can't be blackmailed. i agree with the secretary on this one. my nuance is different. i have said throughout the campaign, we're not taking a hard enough look at saudi arabia. not only the people that came from saudi arabia and participated in 9-11. the evidence is clear. saudi arabia is one of the most powerful and wealthiest families in the world. that's why they can threaten to withdraw hundreds of millions of dollars from our economy. the evidence is quite clear. sections of that very large royal family have funded -- this extremely right wing fundamentalist ideology which is what isis is about. which is what al qaeda is all about. there are schools all over the world where children are being educated in the ideology. >> you don't support the legislation?
i'm not all that familiar wit as well. i do believe saudi arabia is playing a very dangerous role in fomenting fundamentalism around the world. >> finally i know you hope to win here in new york. the polls show you behind right now. the question i have is, do you really have a viable path in new york? you would have to win all the remaining states by huge, huge >> we do have a viable role. that's not quite accurate. that we have to win by huge. look at california. a very large state. we can pick up a lot of delegates there. i hope we'll do better than poll indicate here. i think a lot of delegates are looking at one thing. turns out that hillary clinton is not that strong a candidate running against donald trump, ted cruz, or john kasich. in poll after poll nationally, and in state-wide polls, we do a lot better than clinton does against trump, kasich, and cruz. i think a lot of people are
much as i like hillary, but at the end of the day, we must defeat trump. we must not allow a republican in the white house. some of those people will come to us as the stronger candidate. >> thank you, senator sanders. >> my pleasure. trump poised for a big win here in new york. cruz picking up delegates in wyoming, west virginia, georgia. can either side clinch before the convention if cleanland? we'll dig into the delegate battle. and our powerhouse "roundtable." battle. and our powerhouse "roundtable." our parents worked hard so that we could enjoy life's simple pleasures. now it's our turn. i'm doing the same for my family. retirement and life insurance solutions from pacific life can help you protect what you love and grow your future with confidence. pacific life. helping generations of families achieve
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the gop delegate battle is on. trump says the system is rigged. cruz says he's whining. setting the stage for an explosive floor fight in cleveland. the convention managers for both campaigns up next. cleveland. the campaign imaginers for both up next.y thousands of suppliers and employees globally. but with cyber threats on the
we're in all likelihood going to have a battle in cleveland to determine who the nominee is. if you don't want to hand the general election to hillary clinton, which is what a trump nomination does, i ask you to please support the men and women on this slate. >> the system is a bad, bad system. and, they got to do something about it. the republican national committee, they better get going. because i'll tell you what, you're going to have a rough july at that convention. >> donald trump and ted cruz, both looking ahead to what could be an historic and raucous convention in cleveland. let's get to that with jon karl. we just saw cruz pick up more delegates in wyoming and other small states yesterday. trump has a healthy lead. the first question. can he get the 1237 delegates he needs before the convention?
convention. he needs to go on a roll. he needs 481 more delegates. that's about 63% of those remaining. here's how he can get there. first of all, new york. over the next nine days, all the contests in the northeast. this is trump's backyard. he's expected to win. he needs to win big in all of those states. because then in the month of may, the contest moves out west. nebraska. not areas necessarily trump's strength. most important state in may is the month of indiana. he's going to need to do better than expected in may. no matter what, we're headed to the last day of voting. june 7th. several states. including, most importantly, the state of california. 172 delegates. if trump is going to win this, even if he goes on a roll between now and then, he needs a big win in california. >> even if he doesn't get to 1237, there are a lot of unbound
negotiate with before the convention. how close is close enough? >> about 136 that will go into the convention completely unbound. free agent delegates. if trump is within 100 or so, these 136 free agent delegates become the most powerful people in the political universe. trump is already working on identifying them and reaching out to them. they'll be wooed in person by donald trump and ted cruz as well. >> and if no one has the 1237 by july, all bets off. >> that's right. because you have -- by the second ballot, 1600 delegates can vote for whoever they want. regardless of how their state's voted. and the third ballot, almost all of them are free agents. which is why you now see cruz working so hard to get the actual people that will attend the convention, even if they're in states where they'll be bound to trump, that they'll vote for cruz on the second or third ballot. >> let's talk about that with
for mr. trump. thank you for joining us. you heard what jon karl went through. you're coming off another tough weekend. swept in wyoming by ted cruz. he picked up delegates in west virginia, places like georgia as well. are you getting beat on the ground? >> he only picked up delegates yesterday in wyoming. and we didn't even play there because it was a closed system. we didn't want to waste our money dealing with party bosses. the dialogue and narrative is not focusing on the real issue. the real issue is, there's not going to be a second ballot. as your colleague just said, there are many paths to 1237 for donald trump, between you and the middle of june, not july. and we are working all of those paths. >> they both include, as he pointed out, wins in indiana and a big win in california. >> not necessary indiana. it includes california and new
also is -- is -- the seventh of june. the states that we have just finished, this was -- supposed to be the time of cruz was ahead. we finished with the south. with the rigged systems that have closed caucuses that don't have voters. if you look at the states that cruz won, the states that trump won, what do you see? with cruz he wins the reddest of red states. you have voterless primaries. where the rules favor, you know, organization versus appeal to the voters. trump wins in states you have to win to win the presidency. you have appeal to independents and republicans. >> you and mr. trump keep talking about the rigged system. so far, donald trump won 37% of the vote and 48% of the delegates. you could argue that it's rigged in his favor. >> no, no. when i say rigged system, a closed system that keeps the voters from participating. what this election has shown, when the voters participate, donald trump wins. when the bosses participate, donald trump's interests are not there because he's the outsider. he's making the case to change the banking system, the economy,
so the people's interests start to get represented, not the establishment. >> you have also said that the cruz campaign is breaking the rules. said many times they're doing it, you're going to be filing protests. what specific evidence do you have that they're breaking the rules? and when will you file the protests? >> we have to file protests within certain periods of time. legal cases are being put together. the cruz campaign, even in the closed systems, like colorado and missouri, they're not playing by their own rules. because they've had to muscle things. we'll be filing protests. missouri, colorado, we'll file protests. you saw it in colorado last week, the voters were left out of the process. a ground swell of support against the system. the point is not the rule of the national committee. the system that keeps the voters from participating in the political process. >> you knew the rules going in? >> and we're playing by them. and we're winning. that's the point. there will only be one ballot. >> going forward, if you go to
1237 before the first ballot, i want to get a sense from you on what you think is fair game on delegates. there's a bribery law on the books in ohio that says no person shall before, during, or after any primary convention or election give lend offer or promise to give, lend, offer or procure any money, office, position, place or employment, influence or any other valuable consideration for a delegate elector or other person. in your view, what does that rule in and what does it rule out? arcane nature of the laws. they've told us what we can and can't do. we understand that. we're not violating any rules. we've played by the rules the whole time. we'll have -- we have a delegate program. we understand how to do it. people are coming on board the trump campaign now who have experience in the process. we're building our networks out. i want to point something out that you stressed. in the beginning of this interview. you talked about ted cruz is winning delegates. you talked about a couple of places beyond wyoming.
those are bodies he's winning. if there's a second ballot -- they may be relevant. if there's no second ballot, it's much ado about nothing. the point is as your colleague again said, there are paths to 1237 before cleveland. >> if you're so confident, why does mr. trump keep complaining >> he's complaining about the system. that's the point that keeps getting lost here. he's saying, we're playing to open up the process. we're trying to let voters decide, members of the republican party, independents, decide who the nominee should be. not the party bosses. that's the system of the 1920s. not 2016. yes, there's history in conventions. but the history is ancient now. it's not a modern-era presidency. the world opening up. the social media world opening up the way it has. these rules have to change. and that's what he's saying. as president and leader of the republican party, he's saying he'll open up the system. he's going to end the nature that rigs it and keeps the people out.
chairman of the republican party or the rnc. he's blaming the process. >> paul manafort, thank you. now, let's talk to ken cuccinelli, the operations director for mr. cruz for president. you may be doing well in wyoming. picking up bodies in other states. they're going to get to 1237 before july. >> well, you know, if they do, that's the threshold either side has to get over. then the race is over at that point. we're aiming to get to 1237 by appealing to voters with ted's vision for economic growth. more freedom. getting government out of the way. >> you know the math doesn't work for you. >> common solution for donald trump. >> you know the math doesn't work for your campaign to get to 1237 before july. the real question is, can you block mr. trump from getting
isn't that going to take wins for you in places like indiana and very close if not a win in california? >> you don't win the race without winning states. we've been winning states, delegate contests, elections. when we win, trump whines. you heard more of it from mr. manafort there this morning. we keep pressing ahead. we have a great grass roots network that's been inspired by ted's vision. we're building on that in every state. no matter how competitive it is. that's why we're in the race. why we're going to win the race. and we're building on that foundation. it's a foundation built on ted's vision for america. >> if you look where this is going right now. it seems like if mr. trump doesn't get to 1237 he'll go into cleveland having won the most votes. the most states. having the most delegates. most republicans think whoever meets the three criteria should be the nominee. why are they wrong? >> well, first of all, you have to get a majority to be the
period. it's a bottom line rule. a rule from the beginning. that's the measuring stick. donald trump has not won a majority anywhere. not in a single state anywhere in the country. ted cruz has. donald trump has not. when we get to cleveland, if no one hads the 1237, which appears most likely at this point, then you still have to get to 1237. that's the benchmark. football teams don't get in the red zone and demand a touchdown and cry when you don't give them one. that's what we're dealing with with the trump campaign. lots of football teams get in the red zone and lose. we're aiming to win this by building up the number of folks who support ted. and he's growing the coalition he needs to win. >> you heard mr. manafort say you're doing it with the held of breaking the rules. >> and you asked the key follow-up question. tell me one example. and he couldn't give you a single example.
rhetoric that they can't back up. he said, well, you know, the lawsuits are coming. he can't answer the question because we're playing within the rules established a long time ago. and motivating voters. based on ted's vision. that's why we're winning now. why we're rolling through so many of these states. why he didn't bother to compete. trump didn't just lose in wyoming. he got stomped. and the same was true in colorado. 65,000 people participated in ted cruz swept those -- that election. and he did it with his vision for economic growth. to make this country secure and also to expand freedom. and donald trump can't speak to any of those things. >> you've accused the trump campaign of gestapo tactics. name one. >> yeah, absolutely. how about calling for riots in the street? how about threats? we're going to the hotel rooms of delegates.
republican chairman. i can give you answers. to those questions, george. they can't. they keep using the rhetoric. this is a banana republic approach from the trump team because they're getting beat on the ground. they have a media campaign that is, you know, gets a lot of media attention. but ted cruz has built a grass roots campaign on people. and people's vision across america. and they're carrying this forward. we're winning. because thousands of americans have risen up to ted's message, to get behind that and to win in these conventions and in these caucuses and these primaries and we're doing it. we're going to keep doing it through june 7th and then on the cleveland. >> ken cuccinelli, thank you for your time this morning. >> good to be with you. we have heard from the candidates and their campaigns. "the roundtable" is next. and how the battle will play out on the way to cleveland. and later, the power house puzzler, brought to you by voya
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no haggle price on the window? not zany enough? sometimes the best deals are pretty plain to see. donald trump toned it down on twitter this week. was that melania's doing? >> do you ever want to say, put the mobile device down. >> anderson, if he would only listen. i did many times. and i just say, okay, do whatever you want. he's an adult. he knows the consequences. >> "roundtable" weighs in next.roundtable" weighs in next. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient. at bp, it's training and retraining
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i simply believe that if you want to be the nominee for our party, to be the president, you should actually run for it. i chose not to do this. therefore, i should not be considered. period. end of story. >> speaker paul ryan looking ahead to cleveland, saying he's not going to be a candidate. let's talk about that. all the week's politics on our "roundtable." joined by our matthew dowd, roland martin, anchor of news one now on tv 1. democrat robert reich. former clinton labor secretary now supporting bernie sanders. and republican strategist mary matalin. everyone is looking ahead to cleveland. you heard donald trump talk this week about the rigged process. the manager. what's your take? >> they're right. the system is rigged. it was designed to be rigged. it's rigged on both sides of the aisle.
transparent, open, to get all the voters involved in the course of this. so they're right about that. the rnc is also right when they say the rules are there, they should have been known. you could plan around them. it's a rigged system. i was looking at the data. the voters, the people that voted in the republican primary in d.c., every delegate, one delegate was chosen for every 100 people. the voters in michigan, one delegate was chosen for every 20,000 people. when you cancel primaries and say, we're not going to do a primary. we're going to do a totally different system. they're right. the system is broken. the political system is broken. it's a rigged system. that only benefits certain people. >> does that mean, mary, that if donald trump doesn't get the 1237 and is denied the nomination in cleveland, you're going to have the party blow up? >> the party will blow up any way. it has been blowing up for a long time because it's not been representing conservatives. all the conservatives are angry. not all angry people are conservatives.
in this nefarious way. it's not rigged. it's based on as our electoral general election principles are based on antiquity. the athenian antiquity. the virtuous citizen. the one, the few, the many. and we added state sovereignty. that's why the states get to decide what is the best way to participate. i don't like the nefarious suggestion about the delegates because they work hard. there's nothing in it for them. they -- are delegates because they're -- we're a representative republic. they represent and study issues, politics, and policy. >> george, forgive me if i don't have any sympathy for a real estate developer from new york complaining about the process. he's talking about, i know how
the test to see if you can get something done as a president is can you navigate a primary process? if you become president, you'll deal with the same thing in other countries. when it comes to business. you can't handle this process, you're unfit for being president. shut up, stop complaining, have an organization. because they're not going to hand it to you. you have to earn it. >> i think the biggest issue underlying the republican and democratic elections this year is the upsurge in anti-establishment feeling. what would ordinarily be any other election year, just a, oh, yeah, they're insiders. there are rules. it's not rigged. becomes this year, major political issue. even in the democratic party. the superdelegate issue. people are not talking about -- they're angry if they're supporting bernie sanders. it's not something that will go away. >> not going to go away. the question is, that paul manafort was talking about, can donald trump get there before the convention? do you believe he can? >> i do. what number of delegates does he finish with on june 7th after california is done.
by june 7th. the math is very hard. if he's north of 1100 delegates, keep in mind, his lead over ted cruz is almost as big as hillary clinton's lead over bernie sanders. both in popular vote and in delegates. i think donald trump and paul manafort understand that they have a time between june 8th and the convention to get whatever number of delegates they need. 80 or 90 delegates at that point. they know that their best vote is on the first ballot. if they don't hit 1237, they don't get it. i think ted cruz's people are starting to understand their best vote is the third ballot. and i think that if they don't start significantly picking up aftermath, they're in trouble. >> okay. from the beginning of time, cruz has had two pit -- i've heard all the pitches from all the primary candidates. full spectrum conservative. consistent conservatives. he's never gotten off that. and ground game. delegate game. not like trump will operate in a vacuum after june 7th.
his people are more entrenched. into the -- >> after the paul ryan statement this week, isn't it almost certain that the nominee is either ted cruz or donald trump? >> no. no. this is the same guy who said, i don't want the speaker. don't come near me. i'm satisfied. he has history. >> it wasn't until i heard paul ryan say i don't want it, i remembered what he had said as speaker of the house. and i thought maybe -- >> can i interrupt you two liberals to tell you how this works? >> there's no "l" on my shoulder. >> they'll parachute in a white knight candidate, if it's not trump or cruz. the party that's already falling apart will spontaneously come bust in cleveland. >> it may already. >> something happened this week. that is critical. his meeting with megyn kelly. >> that was critical? >> he has a margaret, becky,
women. republicans lost seats, booted newt out because they didn't like -- conservative suburban white women don't like the attacks on minorities or the rancor. bush comes in with conservative -- he has to deal with that. the convention, you're thinking about november. you want to win. both sides regarding that problem. that they have, which is right now, the leading republican is despised by most independentsindependents, which is the largest group of voters in the country that will decide the election. the leading democratic nominee is distrusted. both parties are fixing to nominate the weakest candidates in the race. general election candidate. i believe that. general election candidate. >> you can't tick off women, though.
because kasich is not just a potential establishment candidate. he's very popular. he's reasonable. he's not crazy. and, there may be a possibility if you have a brokered convention for kasich to actually step up. >> by the way, mary, i voted -- >> he's ranked second in new york. >> i voted for kasich in the texas primary. so there goes your "l." your face is -- >> no, no. just to be a disrupter. i know. i like liberals. i'm married to a liberal. i agree with your intentions. i just think your outcomes are implausible. the reason that kasich is -- and i love john. i know john. john's a friend of mine. he came in the class of '94. he does have some conservative conservative -- the reason he's popular is because he doesn't have a chance, and so nobody is attacking him. these guys have -- don't you understand what i'm saying?
>> i'm just -- i'm just -- >> it's easy to be popular and have a strategy until you get on the battlefield. he's not on the battlefield. he's not winning. he won one state. >> he's running second in new york. and i think after the new york primary, john kasich is going to get a lot of attention. some of it negative. he's one of the few republican governors who expanded medicaid -- >> which is not a thing in our world. >> 14% of the black male vote because of his stance when it came to also mandatory minimums and citizen reforms. >> this goes to the whole problem of the system. the two candidates that would be the strongest candidate for each major party that can appeal to a broad spectrum of voters -- >> isn't that just on paper, matt? >> it is. look at hillary clinton and donald trump's numbers. they're bad. historically bad. anyone on their own would lose the general election. the fact that hillary clinton is going to run against donald trump, she probably wins this
liked than she is. this demonstrates a bad system. john kasich is as conservative as ronald reagan. this year, conservatives want somebody more conservative than ronald reagan. that's where ted cruz is. and ted cruz is not -- there's not this great ground support for ted cruz's stand on issues. the reason he's winning, is because he's not donald trump. >> more african-americans say kasich is more palatable. and again, whether you like it or not. two years ago, i said, john kasich was a guy to look out for. >> it's hard to win this thing. >> hold on a second. hold on a second. we only have about a minute left. >> last november, lindsey graham saying, you know, that if i had to choose, between trump and cruz, it's like choosing between being shot and drinking poison. >> that does set up my last question. will the republican party, if donald trump gets the 1237, will they close ranks behind him? >> they'll have to. and they'll have to make -- they'll have to circle the wagons around issues that are important. starting with the supreme court.
care. and all the other conservative issues that trump has not espoused. we don't know where he is on any of that. we'll have to rally around him closing ranks for the down ballot tickets. if he wins fair and square. >> the base of the republican party is working class voters. they're nominating candidates that are advocating policies that don't appeal to them. >> that's the last word. thank you. and now, the powerhouse puzzler, brought you to by voya financial. this week, speaker out the house paul ryan ruled out a 2016 presidential run. who was the only house speaker
to later serve as president? so who was the only house speaker to become president? james k. polk went from the house floor to white house. man 1: you're new. man 2: i am. woman: ex-military? man 2: four tours. woman: you worked with computers? man 2: that's classified, ma'am. man 1: but you're job was network security? man 2: that's classified, sir. woman: let's cut to the chase, here... man 1: what's you're assessment of our security? man 2: [ gasps ] porous. woman: porous? man 2: the old solutions aren't working. man 2: the world has changed. man 1: meaning? man 2: it's not just security. it's defense. it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems.
i'll see you tomorrow on "gma." new york. what makes it think bigger? go bolder? push for a living wage that's higher. for tuition-free public college. justice that works for all. for a middle-class that... must. be. saved. you do. values. forged in new york. brooklyn born. native son. who knows what we know: we're all in this together. i'm bernie sanders and i approve this message. i said the first 18 years of my life in apartment 2c