tv Charlie Rose PBS November 1, 2013 12:00pm-1:00pm EDT
>> welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a conversation with mexico and its relationship with the united states and its region. we talked to ricardo salinas. he's the president of grupo salinas a leading corporate executive and media owner in mexico. >> in general all our countries are very young. that's why i'm optimistic because all these young people, they're not going to sit around on their hands waiting for somebody to fix their problems. sure we have problems. problems are everywhere. but these young people, they want to have a house, they want to get a job, they want to fill the house with stuff and they want to have children. they're hard workers and we're doing well. so mexico's in a good moment right now. >> we conclude this evening
with costa-gavras. >> we're living the kind of dictatorship which is legal which is dictatorship around the world. >> is it therefore evil? >> i wouldn't say evil. it's a kind of christian position in the industry. if it's an issue, it's a human thing. >> a program note. we promised you this evening an interview with maliki the prime minister of iraq. he's in washington with a meeting with president obama and others. the pedester booked his appearance on our program and called us this morning and said he could not be there because of scheduling conflicts. we hope he will come to this program another time. we will do a program either tomorrow night or next week about iraq and the united states, and iraq's relationship
from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. on. >> rose: ricardo salinas is here. he's the ceo of group owe salinas. in 1987 he took over his family business which operates shops and electronics. it extenned dramatically under his leadership and has more than 2-bgsz 800 outlets and provides loans at 12.5 million account hoards. found television azteca in 1993 and wrote mexico's television monopoly. he owns half of the third largest wireless telecommunication company in mexico. all of this has helped him become one of the richest men in the world close to $10 billion. i'm pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welcome. >> thank you charlie, my
pleasure. >> rose: what's interesting about you is many things. but it is the capacity to take what your father had started, to take the idea in electronics, and move, take the idea and expand it dramatically. what skills did you call on to do that? >> well, i guess i'm a serial entrepreneur. i'm a very restless guy looking for the next new thing. sometimes it's good because of course you produce thing but sometimes we lose focus on some other stuff that we leave behind. but when i started this, our family company which was founded a long time ago in 1906, we only had 64 stores and about 2000 employees. today we have over 6,000 points of sales, 95,000 employees in seven countries. we have telecom, the mobile phones, the fiber optic, the
banking. and of course media and telecom. so it's been quite a run. i've been will you by. >> rose: i'm going to talk about all of these. i'm interested in mexico too and where mexico is headed specifically. specifically in the context of latin america and also in context of larger trading nations. how does one decide and what caused you to say, what is the thinking process i'm going to challenge the idea of government's monopoly on telecommunications. >> well you know, i have to say that maybe i didn't know exactly what i was doing because if i had known all these risks and all the obstacles that we're ahead, maybe i would have done it. certainly my dad and grandfather they probably would not have agreed. so it's one of those things that only young people can do certain things. when the mexican government then
under president salinas decided to privatize television operations there were lots of people that were interested in that. we emerged victorious because we paid way more than the next guy. it turned out that that was our lucky break, because we overpaid so much, we could not be discredited from the process, because you know, nobody knew me or what i stood for. and some guy was thrust into this media which is very public and very political. and there were lots of people who did not want there. >> rose: why did you pay so much? >> well, it's an interesting thing, you know. i hired the bain consulting to do -- >> rose: bain. >> bain. with this consultation of how much the business was worth and they do this projection to bring it back. this is exactly worth $489 million. well gee, how is this. they showed me this excel
spreadsheet. and that was a long time ago, 20 years ago. they showed me this thing. what are the assumptions here. in year five you're going to have exactly 22% of the share of the market, advertising market. well what happens instead of 22.5 i have 30. overrun it. it was like 3 billion, the price. so you went from a 20 to 30, the price went from 500 to $3 million. when i saw that number, i said gee who knows when you're at five you're going to have 20 or 30%. i'm going to bet all my lot on this one. so i put all the money that i had together and ended up paying $650 million at that time. it's about the same kind of dollars today. that was a lot of money. >> rose: the principle is what i'm interested in. >> question the assumption. the key assumption was 20% share in five years. >> rose: you questioned that assumption. >> yes. >> rose: what if it's 30. >> what if it's 30.
>> rose: what's it worth. >> 3 billion. gee it can be anywhere between 500 and 3 billion. so i better ... >> rose: you would make it 30 rather than 22. >> we ended up with 35. >> rose: that's what entrepreneurs are made of. >> that's exactly the point you know. when you're risking your own money it's very different from when you risk some other people's money. even as a hired gun in a company, it's the stockholder's money. in this case, it was my money and my dad and my grandfather, we were all there. and it was to lose, we stood to lose everything not only what we were buying there but also a smaller one but still it's all we had. so it's what we called all in bed. >> rose: it's what they call all in. they also call it betting the ranch. >> betting the ranch, right, that's what we did. but fortunately it turned out okay and now 20 years later it's an established player.
we produce over 20,000 hours a year programming. all kinds of sports, news. we own soccer teams. and it's very successful. >> rose: when rupert murdock bought the "wall street journal." >> paid through the nose. >> rose: but he put a price on it that he said would drive out, nobody else would be willing to pay that high. and he wanted it and i saw him the other day just happened to say at of conference, i asked him, i was talking to him and i said, do you regret it. he said absolutely not. >> of course not. because the "wall street journal" was for sale in the world. that has not only a great business position but also it has a very significant power position. media is power and that's the way it is. >> rose: media is power. >> it is. >> rose: and media -- >> we learned all about it from america, you know. cbs, nbc, the origins of nbc is very interesting how there was
conglomeration in different blood casters as a public service. >> rose: david sarnoff. >> and then cbs bayly. >> rose: -- family was in the cigar business. >> how is that from cigars to tv. that's how it was. >> rose: it was primarily radio. >> we were selling white goods, electronics and furniture. >> rose: but i mean, what amazes me about your story, at least this is what i read, the furniture began with beds. >> yes. that was the original product. we had a factory that made the box spring or the bed where you put the mattress on top. that was the first part that our family did. and then we had a big family split because at that time there was two families, and they had a huge fight. >> rose: right. >> and basically the salinas were expelled from there. >> rose: let me come back to the family but let's talk about mexico. how do you feel about mexico's
economic future today. >> very well. because look mexico had 120 million people. half of the people are less than 25 years old. it's a very young country, it's dynamic. >> rose: you look at emerging markets where they're, i mean obviously japan has an older demographic, china has an older demographic, russia has an older demographic. but at the same time if you look in the middle east and if you look in latin america, there's a very young demographic. >> in general all our latin countries are very young. and that's why i'm optimistic because all these young people they're not going to sit around on their hands waiting for somebody to fix their problems. sure we have problems. problems are everywhere. but these young people, they want to have a house, they want to get a job, they want to fill the house with stuff and they want to have children. and so far they do. they're hard workers and we're doing well. so mexico's in a good moment right now. >> rose: what's the biggest challenge for mexico? >> good government.
>> rose: non-corrupt government? government of laws. >> you know, yes. but much more important, i would say just effective government. because you know, we came, i'm a product of the crises of the 80's. mexico was wiped out of the face of the earth in terms of economic terms from 82 to 88. and those were very difficult years. we went totally broke. and people had basically given up on the country immigrating. so being, coming, having gone through that, which was caused by so badly mistaken government policies in terms of public spending, they spent everything. they put on huge debt. they build massive white elephants. and so they squandered a good part of our oil riches and that's what led us to that decline. >> rose: you're in the sofa
business too. >> yes. we have to compete. >> rose: with carlos slim. >> he bought the government monopoly. what they call the ppt the whole thing. they had local phone, long distance phones, mobile phones, all kinds of links. everything was monopolized by the government. and this also was put to sale by salinas. and that was good. but the bad thing was they put it for sale as a monopoly. so it became from a private -- from a public monopoly it became a private monopoly. and very well run i have to say. >> rose: by carlos salinas. >> yes. they did what they had to do. and they became a hugely successful private monopoly. >> rose: are you friendly rivals. >> well i respect him a lot and we used to be closer. >> rose: what happened? >> this business problems have separated our friendship. because the company that he runs is so big, basically they have
an offer there that says as long as you call anybody on that network, it's for free. so if you call our network, you have to pay. so that is the most predatory practice you can ever dream of. >> rose: what can you do about it? >> well, we can squeal like stuck pigs and wait for new regulation which is what now is coming. mexico passed a new telecom law that subjected us to this place of monopolies. some of the promoters of this made a big stink about of course the telecom monopoly. and at the same time talking about the television monopoly because we have two companies in mexico. but it's a radically different thing in terms of broadcast television. to start, broadcast television is free. you don't need to pay anything to watch it. and you can pay a lot to get a cell phone. that's what we're working on,
how to get the prices down and to be more competitive. we need a lot of capital. that's also true. >> rose: china as you know, which is a huge market, but i mean apple has to take into considering that most of their stuff sells at a higher price point than what the chinese are making. you have to wonder how is market share worth. >> well apple has been extremely successful in keeping up their margins. i think somewhere in apple headquarters they should have a little shrine for all the carriers like me who buy these high price things and give them away to customers and try to have it permanently. >> rose: you have to give it away. >> i don't know how many billion in cash. >> rose: huge, it's about a hundred billion isn't it. it's a bunch. so much so they decided to give some back to stockholders. >> that's great. >> rose: i want to talk, you were outspoken. and you got into a little bit of
trouble because of what you said about women. or maybe it was misconstrued so we're here to have you explain to me what you meant. >> sure. what i was talking about is in modern society, especially in mexican society there's lots of cultural changes at that time need to happen. i was talking about that. and i was talking about how we need to change our attitude about legality about it being something that has to be and not optional. i was talking about our attitudes towards education that is not just a piece of paper, you really have to know how to do thing. then the subject came up in the mexican family. mexican family is a very strong unit in our country. and women at home have been the keystone holding families together. now, with the entrance of mexico into the modern world, there's a pressure on women to not only be a homemaker but also a bread winner. so that puts enormous pressure
on women. and frankly, i don't think we value that, all they do correctly. because it's very difficult -- >> rose: what you intended to say was and perhaps you said and it was misconstrued was that we need to value what women do because they're working not only outside the home but they work inside the home too and they're called on to do more than men are called on. >> precisely. >> rose: so maybe the an is men should take a bigger role at home some women would say. >> it comes back to valuing work. sometimes there's a feeling that if a woman says well i work at home, i'm a homemaker night it -- >> rose: it doesn't have the same value. >> that's the implication. >> rose: clearly not true. >> it's clearly not true because women can do lots of things men can't. for one thing having babies. >> rose: first that. st your wife workout side of the home. >> my wife is a very successful executive she has her own design
firm and she's very very successful and we have three small kids. so yes. and not only that, but one of my main businesses is binging for unbanked women. and we have over a million women in our program for micro credit loans to help them develop their own business. because the other bummer for women in this society is they get married, they get some kids and they get divorced and they have nothing. and really our laws in term of making good for women and children are terrible. these dead beats that don't pay alimony or child support it's terrible. >> rose: did your idea to do this come from simply being in the financial business or did it come from watching what had happened with micro finance in europe, i mean in asia. in asia and africa. in africa primarily. >> well you know what the grammy bank did in pakistan is very interesting and well did you but
it's a charity. it's not a for-profit model. because of that charity is limited. charity can only grow to such level. and it's not self sustaining; do you know what i mean. so what the grammy bank and unice did in pakistan is very interesting and worthy of praise. but it's a charity. it's something that's not self sustaining. it depends on a certain amount coming in and then parsing out to women so it can't grow. i think they have 200,000 customers. we started the wink ten years ago and today we have over 30 million customers. of those are 15 million loans. because this is the self-sustaining business. >> rose: give me the kind of loan you make. >> the typical loan $200 for 12 months you got to pay back $400 after 12 months on a weekly
payment. it's a small loan business, and that is exactly what our people need. no banks will get even close to lending you $300. they'll lend you $5,000 but not 300. >> rose: the 300 is for obviously that's an important point. is the point that you're loaning money for to enable families to buy things or to start companies. >> all kinds of things, charlie. and this is the thing. when i say we have 15 million loans, there's all kind of things going on. there could be a medical emergency, it could be a repair for the homes. it could be the wedding of a daughter or the 15 year old celebration which is big in our country. or it could be a vacation. it's all kinds of stuff. what we mostly see is emergencies of some sort or another, mostly medical. and self construction, which is big in our country. >> rose: self construction you mean building. >> your own house.
you build the walls and them you put the ceiling. >> rose: this is a big industry building your own home. >> yes. basically. >> rose: looking back through the growth rate, mexico, for a while there was, what was the highest it was at. >> about 6%. >> rose: that's what i thought. and we were looking to mexico as saying this is the new brazil, it is the leading economy in latin america. it's now 1-2%. >> yes. well, you know, i'm a terrible skeptic about those gdp numbers. sometimes they say 1.3 or 3.1 or 2.2. if it's 1.6 you get depressed and you don't invest. it doesn't work like that. this is a very big measure of things going on, and has huge holes in gdp. like for example, if you make a hole and then fill it up again, it counts as gdp. so i have a lot of questions about gdp numbers. but having said that, we have
gone through a period of slower growth. >> rose: because? >> well, again, government management in the last, in the last presidency calderon was disastrous. what he did in terms of putting the war a drugs on everybody's mind and scaring everybody about you can be killed if you visit mexico or you go to certain towns. i mean, that's not conductive to any kind of good business. >> rose: but the operative idea he had was we kind of wiped this out because it was hurting mexico in every way. recognizing the demand came to the united states otherwise it wouldn't have been the kind of business it was. >> money and guns. >> rose: money and guns come over. exactly right. america has a role in this. it is so unhealthy for mexico, and so he would argue that it
was an essential thing that we somehow use government to squelch as they did if columbia. >> you see columbia that's a problem. you draw the wrong parallel because that analysis is mistaken. the problem in columbia is there's a civil war going on with some armed guerrillas who want to overthrow the government and make money in drug trafficking. they want to be a big threat. they're going to get overthrowned and also drug trading. >> rose: i'm not sure that's what i understand to be the facts in columbia. some of those people were not involved with the guerrilla groups and involved in the trade and a lot of them are simply doing it because it was a huge way to get very rich and they got very rich. >> that's true. about -- but the point is, in
mexico the business of trafficking drugs into the u.s., and wore talking basically about cocaine because marijuana they do it very well here. they grow it very well in california and colorado and washington state. so the cocaine trade is obviously what sustained these cartels and these thugs. why is it that all these drugs that are coming to the u.s., they get distributed in the u.s. and they get consumed and they have no violence. >> rose: answer your own question. what's the answer. >> here in america you haven't established tolerance. as long as these drug runners don't stick their head out too much or don't create a havoc, they are tolerated. in mexico, the -- >> rose: tolerated but, there's not -- we've had a war.
>> wait a minute, yes, well. but show me one drug king pin that's been put to jail in the united states. one guy. we hear of carlos quintero and mr. escobar. >> rose: the government says we're not going to highlight we're not going to tolerate. >> you don't say these kinds of things. >> rose: you can because you're a private citizen. >> i'm a private citizen, i'm not a government function. it's more than what's done over here. it's a problem, i'm going to deal with it but we're not going to make it number one priority and put it in the newspapers and newscasts every night. because it creates a lot of havoc on people's security. >> rose: the other problem though was not only was the violence and all that that meant but it was the corruption. i mean high level officials in
the mexican government. >> as part of the drug trade? >> rose: yes. >> i really don't think it's the case at all. >> rose: it's the perception at least. you're not suggesting there was not wide spread corruption, are you. >> no, no. corruption has many aspects, okay. like for example, the u.s. customs officer who looks the other way when this truck goes by, that's one aspect of corruption. >> rose: it is. >> now the mayor who takes, puts his hand in the till and takes the money, that's another aspect of corruption. so what are we talking about here. >> rose: we're talking about where there's so much money involved in this that drug king pins can in fact work their way through and have some consequences with the amount of money they're paying law enforcement officials so they escape both being caught and their business stuff because they get into the law enforcement system the justice system. >> that's a big problem in our
country. the justice system is inoperative because of lack of government attention. >> rose: so i rest my case. >> i'm not talking about drugs i'm talking about petty crime. if you get your car stolen and you go and make a complaint they're never going to catch a car thief. if you get beaten in the street nothing's going to happen. god forbid if some of your family's killed, there's 2% of all kind get put in jail. >> rose: how many people do you know in your social rank have left mexico because of fear or they didn't want to worry having armed guards take their kids to school. >> very few. maybe one or two. i tell you what in the 80's i knew a lot more and most of them came back later after losing all their money in america. >> rose: what do you think of the new president? >>y young and he's doing a good
job. but he has all these reforms on the table at the same time. i think that's a big problem you know. telecom, education, tax reform, political reform and energy reform. they say not even the best bullfighter does it with five bulls at a time. >> rose: no bullfighter could do that. >> two is a lot. one is enough. >> rose: suppose trade. speak to me about trade, mexico trade, u.s. mexico and trade. >> it's huge. you see that's why the border with the u.s. is so important for mexico and the u.s. there's much more going on than this drug thing. >> rose: exactly. >> $400 billion in trade a year. i mean it's human. people said well mexico's going to take all these drugs. you know, lots of companies have invested in mexico from the u.s. to mexico and from mexico to the
u.s. and basically what's happening now that the location of mexico, the same zone as america has given as much advantages as china. you have your outsourcing in mexico like in china and india. it's the same time zone. you can fly from new york to mexico city under four hours. >> rose: is china or the united states mexico's largest trading partner. >> u.s. by par. >> rose: who is second? i don't mean to put you on the spot. >> i don't know maybe canada or maybe the european union. >> rose: the union as a whole. >> it's a whole. >> rose: european union as a whole is the largest economy in the world. >> mexico has a lot of imports from china but not as much as one would think. >> rose: it doesn't have a natural resource like chi anyway has copper. >> mexico has resources too.
we have oil and mexico's always been a mining country. now there are lots of goes on the mining riches. the government wants to put a hand in their riches. >> rose: you never been tempted to get in the oil business. >> well the oil business in mexico is a monopoly -- how are they going to fill that 30%. >> rose: should they privatize? technical philosophers suggest privatization. >> it's an impossible situation. it just won't happen. it will not be privatized. the fact is the national oil company has been badly mismanaged in the past. i mean in the past 20 years. it had too many people and its ruless and regulations are unwieldy. again, the government claim entrepreneur is not a good role for the government.
the government should do justice, do education and leave the private to do the enterprise. but in the case of pan mex they need to be more flexible and run it more like a public company without privatizing their shares. it's not going to happen. >> rose: can they run it? can a government company be run like a private company. china you have the same issue in china, do you not. >> yes exactly all those state enterprises. we have some examples of state-owned companies that do well for example the chilian copper company. >> rose: one of the things they seem to be doing, one of the reform is not to provide a monopoly for state-owned companies. not a monopoly in terms of market but a monopoly in being able to beat back competition because they had advantages in competing with the private sector, whether it was their own private sector or private sector from around. >> that's the least any government could do. at least have them compete.
in the case of mexico it's especially complicated because the oil that's underground is by law belongs to the state. >> rose: i want to talk about two other issues. one. this is an economy issue. one of the huge problems in the world as you well know is the growing divide between rich and poor. >> yes. >> rose: my impression is that it has, mexico, unlike many countries, has shortened the divide between rich and poor. >> yeah. >> rose: how did you do it. >> you talk about the gap, you're comparing one that has a lot to one that has less. i don't think the issue is the gap. i would say that's the politics of envy. i would say that the issue is how low is this guy at the bottom and what do we do to bring him up. it's easy to close the gap. do away with the rich people. >> rose: or make the poor richer. >> that's a big difference. that's what i'm advocating. let's make the poor richer. >> rose: how would you do it. >> it's not the divide the absolute low level of income.
because there's no way that people are different. and they're going to have differ outcomes over their lives. even if you made everybody the same at one point in time. in one year there's going to be huge gaps again. etcetera the way it works. what we want to look for is for equal opportunity. not for equal outcomes. so -- >> rose: that issues from the united states too we want equal opportunities not equal outcomes. >> here we're talking about the 1% and the .1% and how offensive that is. because that's envy. >> rose: you're saying when envy is part of the equation it doesn't work. >> i don't think so. we have to be proactive in the proposal. so yes we have some people who are in bad shape at the bottom of the pyramid, at the base of the pyramid. and what can we do to improve their live. >> rose: education is one. >> absolutely. it's the only one. because what's it going to be subsidy? are we going to give them the fish or are we going to teach them to fish. that's an issue in all of latin
america. and i'm saying many places in the world too. >> rose: finally, you have said something very interesting to me to publicly. you said beyond structural reforms central and latin america really need a true cultural revolution. a cultural change. >> you know, that is absolutely critical because mexico and latin america are both parts of the same history. you have on the one hand this indigenous history with many different kind of ethnic local cultures. and then it suddenly becomes together, comes together with this hispanic culture, spanish culture from spain in the 1500s. so many people confuse this as a conquest. it's not a conquest it's a mixture. it's the creation of a totally
new culture of mix between spanish and indigenous cultures. this creates the latin america we know. in many so countries to more degree. like mexico and peru. some others to less degree like chile and argentina. this new culture adopts the things from the indian culture and from the spanish culture and some are quite counterproductive so with a need to change that. for example the spanish culture taught us that nobility titles were the way to get rich. you were named marquis or duke or whatever and then you could exploit your fiefdom in this medieval culture. but the indians and spanish, they had the same thing. they also had -- and they could exploit the local populous. so we need to change the culture. we need to make success as a result of effort and not a privilege. that's one thing. the other thing is, the rule of
law. in our countries, in many of our countries, we have this commonality that we believe that the law should be really flexible. it can be applied or it cannot be applied. that's a non-starter. i mean in terms of investment, certainty, we need to have clear law that are applied regardless. and that has to change. >> rose: let me turn finally to immigration which i touched on earlier. the president of the united states has said, you know, the next thing he wants to do once he gets past the budget thing is immigration reform. what would be your advice to the president about immigration reform? >> open up. america's always been about free trade and about free immigration. this country as great as it is because it brought all these people from all parts of the world and begin this huge melting pot of people that want to be part of success. now there are many ways to deal with this issue. you can have an immigrant become
citizens. maybe that's not the way to do it. but certainly you can have the program for guest workers. not a big deal. when you hear these arguments from the opposition what are we going to do with our local jobs. lots of jobs are not being taken right now, picking the fields in california and nobody wants to do it. >> rose: immigrants would do it. >> right. and they would go back. the political system in the states is very interesting. how is it that america has only two colors, red and blue. when any country in the world you have a multitude of colors. you got red, orange -- >> rose: only red and blue. >> that's it, republicans and democrats. >> rose: that's true. although now there are states that say they are really more purple than red or blue. >> don't you think that's notable. nothing like that in the world exist. >> rose: it's a two party system. >> it's a two-party system. so that i think doesn't help
because it polarizes everything. >> rose: it's been impossible, i mean it's been impossible for an effective third party to even get close to starting here in this country. >> but why a third. >> rose: here's the interesting thing. you are suggesting three, four, five six parties would be better or worse. >> better because you have more choices. i absolutely agree. but look the international experience charlie. germany has lots of parties, spain has lots of parties. >> rose: what's happening today. to chancellor merkel just won reelection she's trying to find a partner, trying to wheel and deal. it might have been this party one time and maybe in that party last time. it's not so much about ideas as it is count, numbers. >> right. but you have to compromise and get things down. >> rose: which is interesting politic in the first place. multiple parties, six or seven parties, i don't think you can get a lot, that's not a if idea. >> maybe it's not but i tell you what it's an anomaly in the world. to have elections on a tuesday. why would they do that?
tuesday nobody shows up. >> rose: that's another -- >> it's a big deal -- >> rose: i'm all with you on that the too. not on tuesday or not necessarily -- a whole lot of things you can do to make the system better. i'm thinking of a whole number of places. there are whole tons of parties in israel for example but they are essentially to three parties, you know. >> yes. >> rose: i mean the labor and -- run for a while and that's down. they've got a series of small religious parties who simply form coalitions. >> israel is a peculiar place but mexico for example we have five parties at least. >> rose: it's hard to talk to mexico when you have one party that dominated mexico for most of its history. >> until it changed and now we have a lot. ha ha ha. >> rose: so is mexico better under preparty. >> it's definitely better now
with competition. because you can choose, you know. hillary say well, this thing about the government grid lock should be a lesson for americans so that they put attention to what people they vote for. it's just two choices. it's kind of hard to choose. >> rose: that's a whole other subject. what do you think of her? >> she's a master politician. she has a lot of experience. i think she could do a about good job. >> rose: good president. >> i think so because experience counts for a lot. mr. obama with all due respect. he never had been in government. he had been a senator. >> rose: for a brief time. >> it's not the same to be in the executive -- >> rose: when you look at his -- >> i'm just pointing out a fact. i cannot criticize, it's not my country and he's not my president. but you know for example in mexico, he comes from the state of mexico where he was governor. president clinton came from the state of kansas where he was
governor. >> rose: arkansas. >> arkansas. that's a real cost like calderon, he's never been in government. so it's a handicap. the executive branch has its own rules. >> rose: politics is different than business. >> it's very different. very different. yes. absolutely. that's why i never run for politics? >> rose: because. >> it's different. >> rose: it's different in that it'sism me first of all mean it's not simply black and white. it's nottism me about the numbers. it's about people in an interesting way and it's about politics and it's about coalitions. >> exactly. i would say for government office. now i am in politics in a different way. our social action program are just fantastic. we have these youth orchestra program. we have now 13,000 kids. >> rose: who is we. >> we, the grupo salinas.
we have a use orchestra. it's a heart warming thing you've seen. i hope you get a chance to see one. we have kids who many of them never played an instrument and in four months they're doing a symphony. and we have 13,000 kids now on that. and this is after just three years. >> rose: here's an idea i actually talked to larry page about this recently. it is the idea of the definition of a corporation, not whether it's a person or not and all those kinds of things has legal issues. it is the power of the resources of corporations and how they can be used. >> if you organize them correctly. >> rose: exactly. >> i think a government could be run in a corporate way but with social action in my. >> rose: right, exactly. it's because you have the human resources, you have the talent, you have the financial
resources. >> basically a successful corporation is accountable. >> rose: it is. >> the problem with many governments is they're not. >> rose: that's why we had elections. >> well that's too late, that's four years later or eight years later. >> rose: thank you for coming. it's a pleasure to have you here. maybe we can do this next time in mexico. >> why not. >> rose: fake a look at mexico. >> i'm show you tv azteca. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> they must know where that money is. >> return on equity must reach 20%. >> for every major transaction significant bonuses will be granted to them. >> how you achieve this is of course all to yourself. >> rose: costa-gavras is here he's an oscar winning filmmaker.
a move in grease came out in 196. since then he's become known for the ability to urge plight can you issues with the suspense of action thriller. his movie explores global finance. they're the trailer for capital. >> they're waiting. >> no way. >> the little french frog friends will drop you. ♪ >> in the cut throat world of global finance helping the little guy is a luxury you just can't afford. >> it's not because i need it. >> but if you make the right friends. >> we want to create is a powerful bank. >> and know all the angles. >> you help us, we help you. >> you can do anything you want. >> you can do that. >> i wanted to break from the past together.
>> just be careful. >> this is my life. >> nice to meet you. >> least keep this between ourselves, shall we. >> the one thing money can't buy. >> think about pleasure, only about pleasure. >> is a conscious. >> playing with the numbers. >> redemption comes at a cost. >> going too far. >> but corruption ... is priceless. >> people believe that money is a tool. well they're wrong. money is the master. >> capital, from two time academy award winning director costa-gavras. >> rose: i am pleased to costa-gavras at this table for the very first time.
welcome. it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: how did you come to this subject? >> years ago, i was planning to make a movie about money. because i think money change people completely psychologically, i mean. so i tried to find exactly what and that is a book by a french president of a bank which is to say that the for the money people, for the banks, democracy it's a placebo. and i was curious to learn more about that and i found that book which was written by someone who is in the finance field. >> rose: there was one book called total capitalism, yes. there was another one that you called, what, capitalism was it. what was the second book that influenced you. >> yes.
it was total capitalism. capitalist is one and then total capitalism. yes, the worse system is over all the others you must know charlie. >> rose: yes, i do. >> so it's a triumph. all the other systems fell apart, the companies and all kinds of other systems. and even china which is supposed to be a communist system it's not a communist system it's a total capitalist system. >> rose: it's called state capitalism. >> it's the few people running the country and have the authority. >> rose: define your character for me. tume. who is he. >> he's a normal person. he is coming from a middle class family. he does economic studies and he went up in a day from one moment to another becomes the chief of a bank. and he decides to stay there whatever the ethics would be.
>> rose: here's a scene. he's played by gad. who was a french comedian. >> he's a comedian. he's probably the most funny guys in europe, in french speaking. >> rose: this is not a funny part. >> it's actually not. because he was very sympathetic to play that role and since when he accepted, it was a great to work with him and to create that kind of which is the one we see in the movie. >> rose: why did you want him. >> because i like to change. and also i would like to have someone else said to be sympathetic in the beginning of the movie. >> rose: you liked him in the beginning and you watched him change. >> and we see how he changes. it's exactly what happens with the force of the people. we see the people in television, they give us an extraordinary speech saying that everything can be all right and we work for you and so forth and then we discover it's different. >> rose: take a look. this is where he talks to his
>> rose: now is that theory a global capitalism that he expressed. >> yes, absolutely. >> rose: but he becomes corrupted after that. >> i wouldn't say corrupted, he becomes normal. >> rose: normal like everybody else. he buys into the system. >> right, absolutely. he had the system continuing the way it is. >> rose: didn't he have a point that there are good things about the system because it feeds children and provides living standards for people. >> right. >> rose: it creates a healthy economies in some cases. >> right. but it's also depend on the stockholders. and if he doesn't do exactly what the stockholders ask him to do, he's out. so he's ready to stay his position to do anything as necessary. >> rose: what about politics
fascinates you the most because there was something about the, you know that reps -- resonated because it was great storytelling and yet we knew it was based on real facts. >> it's not so much about that it's about the human beings who vote and they get so attached to someone without any criticism. without saying oh this guy did wrong thing it's not good. and keep voting sometimes for the same person again and again and justify him. i think we're not enough critical without politicians. >> rose: who is a politician that you admire? >> dugall. >> rose: what was it about dugall. because he drove churchill and roosevelt crazy. his ego was, he defined himself
i am france. >> it was not his ego for him it was for the country. the only person he was devoted was the country. >> rose: france. >> france. not so much the french people but the country. the idea of his country, absolutely. and he really fought very strongly with the small army he had to destroy the germans, to destroy the nazis which was probably one of the best. this is another great politician because he was churchill. >> rose: of course he lost the election after the war. >> yes. but again we saw -- >> rose: tell me about degaul beyond what we just said that makes you fascinating. first of all he wrote a great memoir. >> he was a great writer. >> rose: yes. >> but first of all, they got one he left from the power, he
was supposed to have the salary of the president and also for the general. surely the salary for the general salary's. >> rose: he took the general's salary. >> not the president's. >> rose: because he wanted himself as a general rather than a president. >> no. because he like to go after money. and he changed the industry of france. for example he created the first pay currently. since then, the french european, the european industry of french is important one. >> rose: who influenced you as a filmmaker. >> the french cinema without a doubt. the japanese french cinema which is the 50's and 60's. >> rose: who else. >> for me someone very important because i read the book and then i saw the movie, it was the
grapes of wrath it was shock for me to see the cinema was able to do that kind of work. another one was ignorance from behind which is a very long movie, very no happy end of course but it was a great movie. >> rose: what was it about the magic of film? was it the tools of storytelling? >> no. my idea is to be writer. i went to france to study literature. and then i discovered the cinema because i was coming from a country where the good cinema was not showing. it was a lot of censorship. and there was -- which was extraordinary movie. so i discovered that with the cinema it was possible to make tragedies. >> rose: you said to the "new york times" once people dealing with art, we must be like
antennas catching the movements in society before they happen. are we doing that in cinema? >> some. it's not always easy but it's important to do it. in you go back to cinema, if you see charlie chaplain's modern times, he speaks about that historically. >> rose: it's a pleasure to meet you. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: the movie is called "capital" it opens on friday the 25th in new york. and friday november 1st? los angeles. and then will expand from there. thank you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org