tv Charlie Rose PBS November 2, 2013 12:00am-1:00am EDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. the prime minister of iraq meets with the president of the united states to talk about iraq and its future, we talk about the same subject with dexter filkins, fouad ajami, robin wright and david ignatius. >> iraq has the ingredients of independence from iran, but the problem is so long as maliki depends on this dictatorship, iran's intent to marginalize and in a way antagonize the sunnis in western iraq, then his dependence on iran grows, as the choice he has made, it is a choice he has made also he is going with the iranians and with bashar against a rebellion in syria, he sees a rebellion and syria certainly in sectarian
lines. >> rose: and on this week, the boston red sox win the world series, we have a conversation before the world series but with a man called mr. october. reggie jackson. >> if you take the barrel of the bat and barrel of the bat is this way, you know, you hold it this way. >> rose: right. >> that barrel never gets ahead of those hands. >> rose: ah. >> it is always behind this way. if you see the great cabrera who is our best hitter right now in baseball, watched any of the world series and saw big papi. >> rose: yeah. >> -- that barrel is going to be behind those hands when he is swinging that way. it is not going to go through the strike zone this way. those hands, when they are over here, they are going to be that way but in the strike zone, they are going to be behind, the bat is behind the hand. >> rose: barrel -- >> the barrel of the bat is going to be behind these hands. >> rose: the future of iraq and a hall of fame career, when we continue. funding for charlie rose was
>> iraq has made significant progress in areas like oil production, and a range of other reforms that have taken place, unfortunately al qaeda has been active and grown more active recently, so we have a lot of discussion about how we can work together to push back against the terrorist organization. >> rose: prime minister of iraq nouri al-maliki met with president obama in washington earlier today, he is seeking assistance in dealing with increasing levels of sectarian violence in his country, there is concern that civil war gripping syria may spread across the border into iraq, the trance national al qaeda group the islamic state of iraq and greater syria operating in both countries, joining us for the conversation about iraq today in
washington, d.c., david ignatius, the of the washington post, robin wright a joint in the institute of basis and woodrow wilson center, stanford, fouad ajami is a fellow senior at the hoover institute. >> and dexter filkins of the new yorker magazine, i am pleased to have all of them to have this discussion. what is going on in washington and the conversation between the prime minister of iraq and the president of the united states, fouad? >> to be honest with you, charlie, i wouldn't have given mr. maliki the meeting with president obama, i think it was a mistake. the idea you have this man now running for a third term in iraq. he had a term in 2006 as a compromise candidate, he then had another term in 2010 as a prime minister, when he was in the top vote recipient, he subverted the process and he then put himself forth for a third term in 2014. this is part of his campaign,
and there is something -- he is a lucky man, in order to run for this illegal, in my opinion, third term, as a candidate of the supreme leader in iran, president obama in washington and of bashar al-assad in syria, it is an amazing work if you can get it. this war, which i believe it was a noble war that is my belief in it and you were kind enough over the years to give me a kind of a forum for this, but this noble war has got ten a tyrant. >> rose: robin wright? >> well, the prime minister al maliki wants more weapons from the united states, he is very concerned that his government, his military particularly can't control the growing insurgency, more than 7,000 people have already died this year, more than 1,000 last month, and he da -- his theme in washington is al qaeda is back and more dangerous than ever, and that he needs help from the outside world, it is a particular irony given the
fact that just two years ago the iraqis really wanted the united states to leave, and even if the united states had been willing to leave a residual force behind to help the iraqis, the iraqis, this particular government wouldable, was dead set on getting the americans out and now he is coming back to ask not only for apache helicopters but also for help in intelligence and even the use of drones. >> >> rose: picking up on that david, what does the administration, obama administration how do they respond from that and what do they want from him? >> i think the administration is interested in exploring this intelligence assistance, the u.s. knows that it has a problem as it sees the growth of al qaeda in northeast syria, and the resurgence of al qaeda in iraq, it really looked like it had been all by extinguished during the time of the u.s. troop surge and general petraeus's command there. it is strange, iraq must be the
only country in the world that today would like more nsa surveillance on its territory, but they literally want to know where these people are and how to target them. i think the u.s. is -- they know maliki, maliki has been a disappointment to u.s. special, as ajami suggests we went way too forward with him, he was a petty tyrant, some years ago but now as the worm turns, here is maliki in washington looking for help and in this case, there are reasons why the u.s. ought to give him some help because it is in our interest. >> rose: a group of snawrs wrote to the president accused him of failure of governance that contributed to the surge in violence. what role did that have? what impact will that have? >> you are asking me, charlie, republicans in the senate led by senator mccain and senator gram are just on a warpath in general
about the obama administration foreign policy in the middle east arguing it is failing .. in many dimensions. i think there are so many elements that they oppose, the one i would focus on for your viewers is, i think the job that they have done communicating with even traditional and close friends and allies, the uae, jordan would be two obvious examples, has not been what you would expect or indeed what the u.s. needs right now. this period of change in the region you have got to really stand close to all the people who matter in terms of the execution of foreign policy. >> rose:. >> maliki is not only a tyrant but from the beginning he is sectarian to the core, and that means this shiite divide and he has taken the war to the sunni minority in iraq and i think in a way has done sort of iran's bidding in that way but i think
even if you set the war in syria aside, he would have an enormous problem on his hands because, on his hands because he has not -- he has not tried to be inclusive in the way that he has governed iraq, and so a lot of the problems he is talking about, al maliki wrote an op ed he said help us fight the terrorists, a lot of these problems are of his own making and so i think if you are president obama and you are sitting there with him a and asking for help i think president obama needs to think long and hard before he gives it to him. >> rose: what role are they playing in terms of allowing iranians to fly over iraq to go to syria? >> well, i mean, in that -- i mean that is coming right to the heart of the matter. you know, the regime of syria, the regime of bashar al-assad, the murderous regime is being sustained really only because of the iranian, the really
incredible iranian effort that has been going on and that is largely carried on by transport planes that have been flying over iraq and essentially with iraqi permission. it is unclear if the iraqis had an air force and if they were stronger would they say no to the iranians we don't really know but what we do know is they allow those over flights to carry on and certainly against american objections but all of that comes back to, i think, to 2010, you know, the united states doesn't have a lot of influence there now. you know, we were there for nine years, you know, tens of thousands of troops, we fought a war there and lost a lot of people, we have virtually nothing there now and so we just don't have that much leverage. there is not that much we can ask maliki to do. he is coming to us asking for help but we can get a lot from him, but we don't really have -- we don't have -- we haven't had a presence in that country for two years now. >> rose: okay. i want to broaden this out to the relationship between the united states and the middle
east. robin, talk a bit about prince bandar and what he said and then prince facile and what he said about some sense that don't trust the united states, they don't think they can depend on the united states and therefore they are looking elsewhere. >> well, the there is a significance between the united states and many of its traditional allies, most notably saudi arabia, and the saudis have taken some unprecedented steps first in refusing to give the speech at the united nations and then to walk away from a seat on the security council when 15 seat position was long thought after had been elected this would have been given saudi arabia a great deal of calling but the saudis reacted and said they are very disappoint with the the united states, in fact outraged at its passivity on syria and its failure to arm and support the rebels and opening
up a dialogue with iran so this has led to an unprecedented rift. >> the saudis are acting childish and acting like united states is more important to the united states than saudi arabia is to, or than happen than the united states is zero to saudi arabia, we see this across the area, rather the divisions among the sheikdoms so this is a time that because of iraq, because of syria, we are seeing kind of a realignment of loyalties, of interest groups, and this plays out in particularly in iraq and syria today. >> rose: david, back to all of these points, but just come back to you in terms of conflict between saudi arabia and iran and wha what the iranians, whate saudis are saying but also how the u.s. might respond to this, because as you know susan rice recently said we can't just be consumed by one region, as part
of this sort of so-called pivot to the west -- i mean to the east and china and the rest of asia. >> let me just say a few words about what i think is a positive aspect of the middle east, the administration is much attacked middle east policy. obama is trying to see, if it is possible to make an opening to iran and negotiate a deal to limit iran's nuclear program short of having nuclear weapons in some verifiable way. that is a big deal. i think it is in the u.s. interest's and israel's interest, as the very complex negotiation. it is not surprising that saudi arabia, which regards iran as its main regional rival is upset, and the saudis are furious that they weren't consulted and informed but they are really furious about the different course of u.s. policy. i think that is to be expected and it shouldn't deter the u.s.
you know, fundamentally i think it is about the sunni shy achieve, shia of the region which is dangerous it is not in the u.s. interest to forever go along with the saudis in their agenda in that regional sectarian conflict and as the u.s. backs away i think there is good sense in that. >> rose: robin. >> well, you know, one of the things we are not looking at in this whole -- in the many sides of the conflict in the region at that today is how they could change the face of the region itself. we all assume that the region is as it has always been or has been in the last century since the european powers divided it up, but the conflict in iraq, the conflict in syria they are beginning to bleed together, there is a real danger that syria won't be able to hold together and that will then influence what is happening in iraq. remember that when iraq turned its civil war around in 2006 and 2007, it was with the presence of 100,000 american troops
there. and an awakening among the sunni arabs that led to the birth of the sons of iraq which fought alongside the americans and maliki as prime minister has basically destroyed the sons of iraq and walked away from one of the most effective creations, effective forces inside in checking al qaeda and the extremists. now he is saying, well, in fighting terrorism i am going to recreate the sons of iraq, well a lot of those people don't believe maliki and there aren't 100,000 american troops there to support them and there aren't the oil -- the riches that the united states invested in that peace process, and there is a real danger that if maliki or someone doesn't hold iraq together and syria, which is already falling into three recognizable pieces that the whole map of the middle east begins to change and that has repercussions not just for the region but for the flow of energy, the trade patterns the alliances that, you know, for years, for decades to come.
>> yeah, i agree with robin. it is the -- the region is potentially, anyway, it is cracking up, i mean if you look at al qaeda in iraq and syria, i mean it is basically a joint operation, but you have essentially from the iranians border all the way, you know, through iraq through syria to lebanon the sunni shy a conflict broadening and see these countries breaking up, think a, if you throw the white house into this, i think president obama he came into office in 2009, wanted -- wanting to get out of the middle east, you know, forever and ever, and -- >> rose: wash his hands of the place. >> he was, he wanted to get out of iraq, which he did, and we are in the process of getting out of afghanistan but i think -- i think -- i think his desire, at least as we can divine it, is he wished he didn't have to deal with the middle east. he would like to pivot to asia, that is where the economies are growing and he would like to
walk away from the middle east and what we see, i think, all of these things that are happening that we can see post of which are bad, they are happening essentially in the absence of really strong american leadership. >> rose: what is going to happen in syria? >> blood. >> well, a good muslim will say, only allah knows. we don't know what is going to happen to syria. we don't know if syria will hold. we know syria is broken into these different parts. we do know that historically syria was, it has the sunni cities and damascus, it had the alawite coast and druid area in the southeast and kurdish part in the northeast, so in a way, syria itself is being tested and the proposition is being tested whether syria could hold together. one note on, i am very sympathetic to what david ignatius says that we can't really solve the sunni shia
schism, the sunni shia schism dates back to karbala, it is not calling on the united states to solve that crisis but the united states has to have a syria policy that worked, but this idea that is threatening bashar al-assad with a red line, threatening with the bombing that never came and then turning to the russians and to the iranians, and we now have a proposition by the united states that we want iran to be party to the negotiations over syria. how you could ask iranians, whose revolutionary guard is a hezbollah proxy in killing syrians that we invite them to be part of the discussion of syria's future is really a moral and strategic catastrophe. >> rose: so what is going to happen with the russian, u.s. sponsored negotiations and according to what i have read, the syrians have done a reasonable job of adhering to what was required of them; is
that right, david? >> well, they are certainly carrying forward with the specific benchmarks, you know, since the russians are their patrons, they are invested in this, they don't want to upset the russians. interestingly i heard a senior iraqi diplomat today thinking about the geneva 2 negotiations as they are called which would be negotiations for political transition in syria, he said, well this might end up looking like the iraqi governing council we which we all remember is this interim government that was, you know, often quite happen less, dexter will remember setting outside of their meetings but maybe, certainly some transitional process that reduces the killing, the suffering, i mean we are heading toward a nightmarish winter, so as much as i think this is an interim solution, not a lasting solution, it is, if it reduces the violence i think it is probably a good idea.
>> rose: john mccain often said we have to do more simply because assad will never negotiate to any kind of leaving, as long as he thinks he might win. is that tied going to turn, is that tide going to turn because of what is happening on the ground in terms of u.s. support, in terms of the saudi support, in terms of what the qatar and people from qatar are doing in terms of what the turks are doing? >>ly just give the briefest answer from what i have seen on the ground and this dates to almost a year ago but there is no way bashar al-assad will govern the entirety of syria ever again, anybody who thinks that just needs to rethink it. it is not possible. he may govern islands and govern cantons but all of the players have to decide is whether they want to step that kind of lebanon style partition, de facto partition of syria, what the rules for it would be, but the idea that assad's government
will ever control all of syria again is a nonstarter. >> yes, but i think the idea that assad is going to willingly walk away from power too is hot going to happen. remember the war in lebanon went on for 15 years and had an effective partition of the country and i think, you know, only allah knows but it is not hard to imagine that we have got 15 years of very uncertain, very uncertain events ahead of us. >> okay. i want to make sure i come back to this. what is the relationship today in terms of the present government in iraq and the present government in iran? >> well, i think it is a very interesting question. i mean, nouri al-maliki and his government, are they sat trap of iran, like hezbollah is a sat trap of iran. >> it is not quite because iraq is larger and iraq has its own
oil money, and iraq has its own religious class, if you were a really devoted shia someone will tell you the leader in iran issued a fatwah and then on the other hand grand eye toly issued a fatwah you would, of course, .. believe the sass stay any is more believable. >> but the problem is so long as maliki intends on this dictatorship, so long as maliki's intent to marginalize in a way, antagonize the sunnis in western iraq, then his dependence on iran grows. it is a choice he has made. it is a choice he has made also that he is throwing his lot with the iranians and with bashar against a rebellion in syria. he sees the rebellion strictly in sectarian, sectarian lines. >> referring to the fact that
who is a any wrote in that, hosani wrote in that piece is literally in damascus part of the time running part of that war. >> yeah. i mean, i think the iranians really have had kind of the run of the place for the last two-year. when -- if you think back to, say a year ago, when it really looked like assad was going to go, he was teetering, it was kind of a wakeup call for the iranians and the russians, i don't know if they were working together but the iranians began a pretty massive -- or they accelerate add pretty massive airlift of guns, ammunition, money. >> rose: and hezbollah came in too? >> hezbollah came in, thousands of hezbollah fighters, $7 billion loan to the syrian government from the iranians and came in to more or less tame take over personal control of the war and i think that is what, that is what stabilized, that is what stabilized the situation for assad and that's why we are here, and that's why
wwhere we are. and i think that is why i think assad is determined to hang on now, because i think he thinks he can. i mean as long as he has his benefactors he will fight it out he doesn't care if syria is governed in three different parts. i mean, syria is about him, you know. >> rose: matter of power. >> yes he will stay as long as he can. >> rose: this is what you wrote, centrifugal forces of tribes and ethnicities which you have sort of repeated here, empowered by unintended consequences of the arab spring are pulling apart the region defined by european colonial powers a century ago and defended by arab ought accurates ever since. so what is the future then, i mean if you look at that consequence, what is shaping the middle east other than this great conflict between sunni and shia? >> well, i think the fact you have seen the opening up or a political system that people
have a sense of empowerment and more importantly a sense of entitlement and they are all looking for protection, whether from their sect, their clan, their neighborhood, and that is leading to, because so much of politics has been based on fear in the past, it is still being defined by fear and looking for protection, looking for a little bit more than the next guy and the piece of to the pie isn't big enough so we are seeing ironically and tragically that the push forward for democracy also led people to kind of want more rights than the next person and it is unleeciald a sense of entitlement that, but no sense of responsibility l is no sense of common good and you see that reflected most visibly in iraq, and in syria, where there is the national identity that was created a century ago has not survived, and that the local forces are more divisive and they will define the future more than the kind of nationalism that has defined the region and
these entities for the past century. and so we are looking at literally while we are focused today on whether we give arms to maliki and what will we do about syria, the fact is the stakes here are so much bigger than they have ever been before. >> rose: okay. this is what you said about maliki. dexter. maliki dislikes the iranians and he loathes assad, but he hates al misra and he doesn't want an al qaeda government in damascus. >> that's right. i mean, i think all of that is a long way of saying that maliki is going to -- well, maliki is going to try to survive first and foremost and that's why he is coming to washington, but i think more than anything, he fears a return of -- he fears a return of al qaeda in western iraq, aided by the insurgency in syria but i think ironically as
fouad suggested it is his own sectarianism that is bringing it about. >> when you look at all the al qaeda groups, al qaeda affiliated groups where are are they most likely to find a safe haven? >> well,. >> rose: would it be in africa? would it be in syria? will it be somewhere else? >> what worries me the most is the way that al qaeda is putting down the roots in syria and iraq, new roots, and more of the way in which it has learned from its mistakes during these, the al wall can i where they organized the sons of iraq to put them down, i mean they burned so hot they became hated in enbar province in the western part of iraq, they were tyrannical and they maiden miss everywhere, but sad to say from our standpoint they learned from that. and, you know, in these areas in syria that they have been doing the fighting, they are the toughest fighters, they share
what they take, the spoils of war, in a way that other warlords i am told don't, they are more on the model of hezbollah in lebanon where they understand the social service component of an effective insurgent movement, in other words, this is, unfortunately, a better, tougher, smarter al qaeda, they are at the gates of europe, there are hundreds and hundreds of foreign fighters moving through these camps, moving through this al qaeda in syria, experience, and it scares the next out of me. >> rose: we shall conclude from this the president should slow down the pivot to asia? >> events on the ground have always over taken diplomacy and whatever the president has promised he is going to look at some other part of the world or deepen relationships always ends up going back into the middle east. obama tried to get us out of two wars during his first term and he is trying to prevent two new wars, whether with syria or iran in the second and he find himself sucked into syria in the
meantime. it is really a hard region to walk away from. what an irony that the arab israeli conflict actually looks pretty small in comparison, and a little bit more hopeful than many of the other places in the region. >> rose: fouad, if you had known at the time of the iraqi invasion, which you supported, that it would look like it was does, like it does today would you have had a different opinion? >> i think in a way, yes, iraq is better off without that great megalomaniac saddam hussein, i think where we now stand is at the biggest producer, if you will, the biggest promoter of al qaeda in iraq is none other than nouri al-maliki. he wants to rule alone. as it is, the sunnis in iraq have ruled iraq for a millennium, they were used to ruling iraq, it was always going to be difficult to wean them away from power and for them to
accept being part of the texture of iraqi life, i think what maliki has done is, his contempt of them and his opposition of them, when maliki in a way trumped-up charges ends up issuing a death sentence against the most prominent, the most prominent politician in the country, vice president a shah my, nobody believes these charges, it tells us how radicalizing has maliki become. >> rose: thank you david, thank you robin, fouad, thank you, dexter. we will be back. oh, what a throw! forget about who the most valuable player is in the world series. >> rose: reggie jackson is is here, 36 years ago he cemented his legacy as one of baseball's best litters, he hit three legendary home runs on three
pitches to seal victory for the new york yankees over the los angeles dodgers in game six of the 1977 world series. the hall of famer won five world series anxious, two with the yankees, he writes amount that much more in "becoming mr. october". i am pleased to have reggie jackson back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: let's do a picture of you. this is the first line. first chapter, chapter run, i never intended to play professional baseball. after high school, i had gone down to arizona state on a football scholarship playing for frank curb, who was a great coach and knew my high school football coach from the pittsburgh area and he had said that i would be a great college player. and look at this. there is a picture of you as a football player. do you regret that you didn't play football at all? >> no. no. i would say not. i certainly enjoyed football, and i had the kind of pent up
aggression, if you will, to where football was something that i enjoyed. i enjoyed the collisions and the physical contact. >> rose: okay. so let me ask you this. there was a book written and what was it? because about mike -- what do you add to here about the period of your hive that was covered in that book? >> >> the in is really more of a rebuttal, and at the same time i want to express some of the social inequities that i went through, because i -- during this bronx is burning skit that was by espn i felt as though i was depicted as a villain there and i had a big ego but i turned my ego, my ego into being a maniac type ego, if you will, a run away, a run away egoist if you will and i was disappointed and husht by it and i hurt by it and i wanted to give some reasons why i was quiet or
abrupt or, you know, wanted to stand my ground, if you will, because i honestly felt that this social, the social issues during that particular time from the sixties and seventies were a part of who i was. i kept them with me. i didn't really feel as though i needed to apologize for being with the yankees or apologize for being the highest paid and i had that stance. >> rose: so were you angry about the resentment from the yankees, some of the yankees because you would come from the a's? >> charlie, i don't think i was angry about it, i was disappointed that i guess i didn't get, was -- wasn't more welcome, if you will, at the same time i made a terrible mistake when i came here and i did an article in sport magazine that said some things, some things are written that i firmly believe i didn't say that i am the straw that stirs the drink, i firmly believe that my
terminology was i am the last ingredient that the ball club needs, one of the following ingredients to help get them over the top. >> rose: you didn't say i am the straw that stirs the drink. >> no, no. and another comment that really hurt me that came out that said, thurman munson can only stir the drink badly. and i didn't say that either. and that got me off on the wrong track and started things downhill. >> rose: what was the relationship between you and thurmon munson? >> it was rough and difficult at first, mainly it was fine until the article came out. the article came out in may and one of the great quotes of all-time is i said to fran healey i said well tell thurmon, please, because he was a go-between, friends of both of us that i didn't say that stuff, i was misquoted and thurmon said to him, for 3,000 words? i that that is one of the great all-time quotes. >> rose: did you ad add admire
him? >> yes, h he played hard was a great hitter, and a guy we worked very well in the on deck circle today. he hit third and i hit fourth and he could tell me things he was going to. do he said, reggie, i am just going to advance the runner howrks do you hit this guy? hit him good. >> i will get him to third and advance the runner and he might say to you, how do you get this guy and i would say, well, rudy may or this guy or that guy, some tough lefty, he is tough, i will do my best to drive him in. and he approached the bat that way. >> rose: so incorporated, collaborating with you to get the runs across the plate? >> collaborating with me to tell me what his best skill set was. >> rose: and vicar have is a to help the team out. >> yes. >> what were the incidents that you want us to know and understand that happened to you in coming to the yankees that beyond this article and stirring the drink and all of that that made life difficult for you or made you feel like this was not the welcome you might have
expected? >> in responding to that, charlie, i tell you that doing my minor league career, during my college career, playing in arizona, for the -- i was the first african-american, there was another african-american that played there, slaughter, he was a mulato, a mix, white and black, i was the first african-american, i guess you could say, that played there, and when we traveled, they had to have a vote to find out who was going to room with me when we went on the road to play our away games and luckily the captain of our team said, hey, no vote, the gentleman's name was -- reggie is going to room with me. >> rose: the captain? >> yes. from in, my first years were in baseball, went to idaho and i had trouble, there i got hit in the head with the baseball and wasn't admitted to the hospital because i was colored, and the
owner of the team charlie said get reggie down to california, from there i went to birmingham, alabama, in order to eat, and when we traveled sometimes on 15, 17, 18 hour bus rides at times we had to stop at a place and if i could gone in they would bring food out, i was the only colored boy on the team. if we went to the next town and i couldn't stay in a hotel, we would someone in to see if i could stay in the hotel, the only black guy there. we would drive to the next community and see if the hotel would accept me and luckily i had a manager that was really good about it that way, but coming up through all of that, i still had those, i was aware of that kind of thing and i honestly felt that part of my not being accepted was a problem that i had difficulty with, i couldn't understand it and understand why we weren't, couldn't get along, i played hard and i thought that was
enough, but it didn't seem to be. >> rose: it wasn't enough that you played well? >> but there is also this, as crowell know about this straw that stirs the drink and all of that, robert ward said it is the same old crap talk about your saying you never said it. it is the same old crap but he gets more outrageous with each time now saying i fed him the line, this was not a guy that would be bullied, next thing i wonder if he will say i never really visited, no one put words in reggie's mouth, i didn't have to feed him anything and i wouldn't do that anyway, the idea he was some poor, shy guy who had been fed lines, does that sound like reggie jackson? >> well, no. that doesn't sound like reggie jacksojackson because i am not profession to sound like a poor, shy guy. >> rose: yeah. >> i don't think i ever come off that way, but i can tell you that roger created that line i just had a situation with sports
illustrated last year, phil taylor, made some comments that were off the record, at least i thought so and he put them on the record, i didn't designate to him they were off the record and i never denied them, i accepted them. so i went through that once with roger ward. >> rose: right. >> and i went through it again with phil taylor and i have been through it with other writers. and if i say it i will eat it, i will accept it, i didn't say what roger says i said. i have never seen him since, i would love to just have a conversation with him, and he always has said he is afraid to talk to me, thinksly do something violent or whatever but i woul would like the hear e tapes or listen to it and if he, if i said it i will admit to it. >> is leaving baseball hard for you? >> not really. i had played 20 some odd years in the big leagues, 20 plus, almost 21 and i had a wonderful
career, i couldn't really ask for more. and i was losing my skills. i played the last year. i could have played another year or two, but, you know, i think the last year i had somewhere, hit around 220, 2:30, hit 15 home runs and about 280 at bats or something like that. my injuries that were ten days were three to four weeks, i had a couple of hamstring pulls, and i had an injury with my hand that would have been the week or ten days and lasted four or five weeks, and my skill set was leaving. art mcgwire, jose canseco were on the team, david stewart, dennis eckersley and the game was their game, it had passed me by, so i retired, i enjoyed my retirement. we run around the league and they wanted to on for me around the league as we went and i asked for only a picture of the stadium and an acknowledgment at
my last at bat, i didn't with a want if gifts or awards or slow the game down, just let me go out to pasture. it was time for the old bull to go down into the ring there. >> rose: i talked recently to maryanne berra who, red sox fans honored him and how moved he was by it. >> uh-huh. >> rose: standing ovation. >> yes. >> rose: the great rivera, his last trip to fenway park. did you get that? >> yes. i remember the ballparks i went to, kamisky and anaheim stadium and fenway park, baltimore, one that stands out the most for me was sherm seller who was the old guy, old announcer, bob shepherd at our place and he said, ladies and gentlemen, and what, in what could be his last appearance at fenway park, number 44, future
hall of famer, mr. october. and i doubled off to left field wall and that is something i will always remember, fenway park to me is part of baseball history. >> rose: yeah. >> that voice of sherm. >> the red sox, the fabls t, the fans, the monster i hit a double off the wall my last at bats and one of my great moments. >> rose: of all the people that you did not know that might have been, you know, who were a part of baseball history, who would you most like to have known or played against? >> would it be williams or would it be -- >> there is probably -- i would want to say half a dozen, and the reason why i say that, is because i am a baseball fan that was a good player. i was a fan that played, and the knight i hit the three home runs i was a fan, when i hit a long
home run i was a fan, when i played catch on -- before the game, i warmed up, because i was on a major league field and i was playing catch. i would want to play just for historical memory, say i would want to play against jackie robinson. i would -- >> rose: 40 and 42. >> i would say more so, charlie i would want to play with jackie robinson, i would want to play henry aaron, i would want to play with willie mays. i would want to play are roberto clemente and i would want to play with or against kofax, i probably wouldn't get any hits but i would want to see, i have played against gibson in all-star games but never played against him when he was slicing the bread up. >> rose: one of those, i mean, robert at that was from what ten american america but the other one is kofax. >> duke schneider was my
favorite player. >> rose: really? >> i didn't say it, though because as a young kid in the fifties, and in the sixties, your favorite player had to be jackie robinson. >> rose: you are not allowed to say -- because of the role he played -- >> that's right. i rooted for duke schneider because he was left-handed and hit home runs. >> rose: who did you have -- who was the toughest pitcher for you? >> rose: other than kofax? >> there were some guys like ferguson and jenkins that were comfortable for me but never let me get a hit, i got some hoots hits on them but never hurt them. some of the left handers tough for me mike caldwell pitched for milwaukee and a guy named andy hasler he had an awkward motion and threw hard and about six-foot, six so he was too big to fight if he hit you. >> rose: too big to fight. dwi son would overpower you. >> gibson would overpower you. >> rose: did you hit against him? >> i hit against him on the
all-star game. >> i in it a double and not on seconsecond base and heard he ws tough and gruff and if you got a hit off him he would hit you and i got on second base and i kind of had in my head and i kind of glanced and saw he was looking at me and kind of stuck my head down further, i didn't want him to see me. >> rose: he lives in omaha and a great friend of warren wasn't. >> warren buffett. >> take me back to october 19,. >> rose: was it a special day going on in. >> did you feel like oh, my god i am in a different place. >> i had a fabulous day that day, went over across the street and ate where i always eat, the same restaurant, still there today. >> rose: yes. >> the nektar cafe. i had my normal .. my normal meal and i drove to the ballpark in my little blue strokes wag, a, volkswagen and i parked in the parking lot and i felt good, i kind of felt light, full of
energy, if you will .. calm but just kind of light, i went to the ballpark and unbelievable batting practice, ross greenburg who was unbelievable, unbelievable. >> rose: what was unbelievable? >> when i hit last for the yankees, starting lineup, all nine guys, hit five minutes each, and i hit the last five minutes, the last five minutes, it was purpose my done where your better hitters hit toward the end and the dodgers were just coming to take the field, it was full of media, four, five, deep around the cage, and i had probably 50 swings and i probably hit 35 balls in a 75, pivot to 75-foot circumference in the right center field bleachers, i mean, out of 50 swings i had 35 in the stands, when i came out of batting practice i got a standing ovation from the crowd for batting practice. >> rose: wow. >> >> rose: so they saw it. >> i saw it.
>> rose: do you see the ball earlier? was the ball the size of a softball or what was it? >> i was seeing the ball well, charlie, and the game had just gotten a little slower for me. i wasn't trying to do too much, stay within yourself is what they say. but i was letting the ball get on the barrel before i swung hard. >> rose: yes. >> let the ball get on the barrel before you swing hard. >> rose: what does that mean, get on the barrel? >> let the ball get to the -- before wow go, before you go. >> rose: yeah. >> and get it. >> rose: so a kid comes up to you as you leave this studio and he says, mr. jackson, i am such a fan, three home runs made you everything that we believe you are at your best. what is the history -- what is the secret of being a great hitter?? what would you tell him? >> stay behind the ball. >> rose: stay behind it? >> stay behind the ball. if you take the barrel of the bat, and the barrel of the bat is this way.
>> rose: yes. >> -- you hold it this way. >> rose: right. >> that barrel never bets ahead of those hands. >> rose: ah. >> it is always behind this way, if you see the great cabrera who is our best hitter right now in baseball, and you -- if you watched any of the world series and saw big papi, that barrel is going to be behind those hands when he is swinging that way, it is not going to go through the strike zone this way. those hands, are over here they are going to be this way but in the strike zone they are going to be behind, the bat is behind the, the barrel of the bat is going to be behind these hands. >> rose: it is just like golf, isn't it? >> yes. >> rose: just like golf. >> very, very much like golf. that left elbow in for me, the left hand hit search going to be in, the same as golf and the right elbow for the right hand hit search going to be in in baseball and it is going to be in in golf. >> rose: wow. >> you are going to be behind
the baseball. >> rose: and when do you release the bat? in other words, as the ball comes off, because of how past everything happens, do you start the swing and the, when the ball leaves his hand? >> yes you do, you start a little bit before the ball leaves his hand. you commit with your weight toward going toward what -- this is all back. once you pet your foot down, then you start this way, if you recognizes the a strike, and if it is not, you go this way, you shut down. sometimes you will see hit get that barrel in the strike zone and go a little too far. once they call it a strike is once that barrel gets out here and gets past home plate, that is a swing. >> rose: yeah. > >> if you get it back here and stop it, it is not a swing but once it crosses even though you don't make a full swing, if it gets past full plate it is a swing, so, yes, you do commit before the ball leaves his hand,
you make a decision when it leaves his hand until it gets to you, whether you are going to swing or not, that is about a fifth of a second. >> rose: when are you going to swing? >> you are going to swing down through the baseball, you are not going to swing up, you going to swing down through it if you see me do it now it looks right, this one is wrong, this is right. so you are going down through the baseball. and there is no wrist. i am still here. >> rose: yes. >> out here it gets turned over, of course. >> rose: of course, of course, yes. >> >> rose: it is similar to golf and to golfers that sat very good lesson to learn. can you teach, have you been able to teach hitting? >> i have been teaching -- i think teaching hitting is very difficult, i think most of your hitters relate to derek jeter and will relate to robbie cano and big papi and cabrera. >> rose: yes. >> those type of hitters. and i think that they come to
the league able to put the barrel on the baseball. they come with that skill. now, it can be refined and then it needs to develop and you need to have adjustments as the pitching skills get better and better. that hitter needs to be able to adapt and adjust. you say gee, he is a good hitter is he going to be able to adjust and adapt to how they are going to pitch him and how they are going to adjust to him? and then it becomes a mind game. as to how you can adjust. what kind of coachability? what kind, kind of aptitude does he have to be able to manage his skill set to add rust to what they are going to do to him. >> rose: why is cabrera the best? >> he stays behind the baseball,. >> rose:. >> back to what i said, he stays behind the ball. you only see a, you don't see cabrera off balance and fooled out front, not very often. >> rose: yeah.
>> you don't see that. he is always back. he is much more interested in, as a right hand hitter, in hitting the ball from where the second base bag is, over to the foul line to right field than hitting it around this way. >> rose: yes. >> to hit the ball from where the second base bag is to the left-field line there is, as a right hand hitter he has to hurry and commit to be here. the barrel -- if you are herald the barrel is ahead of the hand. >> rose: right, right. >> the barrel has to be back. >> rose: yeah. this is good stuff. what about williams as a hitter? >> oh, boy. ted williams is recognized as the greatest hitter that ever lived and i call that opinion, it could be some guys would say ruth, some guys you could say gehrig, you could say cobb, lifetime batting average 367, williams i think 344, 343. stan the man, 334.
cap and guys like that, 360, 350. >> rose: where would you put pete rose? >> pete rose is one of the great hitters of all-time. he has to be just with his sheer numbers. a he won a couple of batting titles, mvp awards, 256. that is a lot of hits, that is 200 for 20 years. and another 256. >> rose: how about hank aaron? >> henry aaron, certainly a great hitter, but when you talk about aaron, you talk about two different types of hitters, you talk about aaron -- >> rose: and home runs -- >> aaron goes into the gehrig, ruth, williams, he comes up with this with the significance of their production, produce runs, runs win games, you get a lot of base hits, you need 260, 270
hits and 260, 70 hits, once 190 hits from ruth, gehrig or aaron, there was 180 hits, they are not going to get 220 hits because they will get 140 walks. >> rose: what is your life like today? >> wonderful. >> rose: is it? why? >> mostly i think because i am grateful and thankful. i thank god every day as often as i can during the day. anyone that would -- if you thank god for all the things that you are thankful for, nice home, nice car you drive, your friends, your family. >> rose: yes. >> -- you would run out of daylight, you would fall asleep before you would get to the end. >> rose: yes. >> and if you do start thinking -- thanking him, you will be happier. if you give thanks. >> rose: yes.
suppose somebody wanted you to come back to come back to baseball in any capacity. what capacity would be best for you? >> well i work for baseball now. i work for the yankees. >> rose: i know. >> i am a special assistant to the managing general partner so i work for, i do what they tell me when they tell me to do it. >> so you work for george's sons. >> yes. >> but talking on the field. >> i would pretty much do whatever the yankees asked me to do. if they asked me to manage or if they asked me to, i would do what they asked. >> rose: would you -- >> yes, i would. they have been very good to me. >> rose: and there is a reason to be good to you. become manager october, written with mr. kevin baker, hall of famer reggie jackson, good to see you. >> always good to see you, thank you for joining us, see you next