tv Charlie Rose PBS May 31, 2011 12:30pm-1:30pm EDT
come tthe conclusion... >> rose: although they would say the appointment of hillary clinton was some of that. you know, she was a principal opponent of barack obama. >> that's true. >> rose: but go ahead. >> that's actually correct. he... we both had como similar conclusion the conclusion was that when you... the world was in a kind of a cur mohel as a result of the vietnam war. the soviet union had jt occupied czechoslovakia. we both came to the view that the united states needed an alternative vision of world order than simply the cold war. and we did not see how the cold war could be conducted with the soviet union unless china was a part of it. but we had no idea having ce
to that conclusion what to do about it. so we were sort of fitfully talking about it and on one occasion we found some dutch diplomat who was traveling to china and we sort of gave him a half-baked message. we never heard from him again. i don't know what happened. >> rose: and what happened in warsaw? >> we... the chinese, because of the cultural revolution, had recalled all their diplomats from around the wor. so the only place where there was a diplomat where there was also an american diplomat was in warsaw becau in warsaw we held formal tks periodic intervals so i instructed the american ambassador there at the next social eve where the chinese were present to walk up to the chinese and tell them that we
wanted to talk. the diplomat, an outstanding man thought this was a kissinger invention and he didn't get it through channels so he ignored it. so i made him come back and walked him into the oval office. >> rose: (laughs) >> and the president repeated the instruction. >> rose: (laughs) "tour tell the chinese..." >> and they did it and there was a report now that the chinese had written about it. >> rose: the interesting thing about this book you have access to chinese thinking you did not have. >> a lot of chinese. >> rose: we'll talk mor about that. >> including some during the korean war and erything. rely fcinating. so the chinese report in their story that they thought the americans... saw the americans
looking over to them and they started... they were afraid we'd come over and they ran away. and the american interpreter ran after them and said concern. >> rose: "our government want to talk to you." >> our government wants to talk to you. >> rose: so here were you and richard nixon the president looking at russia and saying that we can use china perhaps as an opening and st of give us more levage againstussia. >> right. >> rose: all right. what you now know is that the chinese in the person of mao tse-tung was having the very same idea. >> exactly right. they came to the same conclusion. >> rose: but you didn't know each other was coming to that conclusion. >> not oy we didn't know we were coming to the same conclusion, we didn't know how to communicate it to the other and we both made mistakes in doing that we went to the most
independent of moscow which was romania and tried to use them to arrange an opening debate. but mao didn't trust any economist so that didn't work very well. mao thought he could use a journalist who we coidered the fellow traveler as a sort of messenger to us bute thought he was just a propagandist. so it was like two ships psing in the night t how did mao come to this view which is orth of interesting. there were four marshals of the people's beration army that said we were working if
factories doing manual labor. he pulled them out of the factories, brought them beijing and said "write me an essay about the international situation." at first they thought this was... might be a trick to get them to incriminate themselves but we convinced them that they were to do it so they wrote a paper in effect saying he ought to open to the united states. then the question was how do we convey this to mao in a becauseable way? one of the marshals said "tell him is likehe hitler/stalin pact." another marshall said i have a better idea-- and this is all from chinese documents-- he said tell him this is like the chapter in the romance of the three kingdoms in which state a moves against state b by using state c and that novel was 600 years old, was band in china
but mao had read it many times and so that's what they did. >> rose: help us understand what you have discoved about the chinese. there is a sense that we don't want to be an imperialistic power but we want to be an influential power that demands respect. >> right. the practical effect of that is they want to be influential, corresponding to what they consider their achievement. so that has to dramatic experience in the history of the 19th century when for 2,000 years there had been the greatest power that they knew in the world and then suddenly foreigners come invading their countries, carving pieces out so that a lot of... of 19th
century. noourt their approach to strategy is different from ours. we segment the problem into constituent part and then we deal with experts on these constituent parts they put all the things together so that econics... >> rose: there's a grand strategy of which all the elements fall into... all contributorslowi into one river of a strategy. >> right. and now they are undergoing-- as we have we are in a formal way-- they have defined... now that the first period that i experienced chinese leaders, their primary concern had to be how to restore their domestic structure and their... i don't mean so that they could play a
significant... >> rose: but what are the intentions 15 years from now when we may have the largest economy? >> but they will also have tremendous probles of urbanization, of aging, of the retionship between the cities and the countryside so they cannot just translate their pow interglobal adventures. and i don't think that that's the way they look at it. >> rose: but have they lost any spect to us because of what they saw happen with the economic crisis? >> i think the biggest blow to our relationship has been the chinese interpretation of our financial crisis. that we didn't look at political matters in an identical way that was apparent after the first years of the relationship and ey sort of understood that
this was the case. but they did think there was a practice from which they could learn. >> rose: and they had, in fact, from deng xiaoping. >> and basically when deng xiaoping said opening up and reform-- which were his basic slogans-- he really meant learn from the americans and he sent himself to students abroad but then comes 2007 and it suddenly turns out that the american financial model that they had... we tried to copy and in some respects started disintegrating in some of its assumption and that has not only made them lose confidence but that we knew what we were dng but those people inside the chinese system who
lead the unid states h a lot of explaining to do. and we still suffer from it. i saw some commentary on the chinese five year plan and i don't pretend to be an economist but the commentary said don't let the americans seeming recovery fool you because the west is trying to solve the current economic crisis by exactly same methods that kept them into the crisis. and i'm not saying that they're right but i'm saying that that.... >> rose: back to mao tse-tung and zhou enlai. how were they different? how did they work together? how was... >> well, mao destroyed chao enlie. >> rose: i kw. >> at the end mao destroyed almost everybody.
>> numrwo man to mao. and mao survived. i know a leader in another country once who was number two and he said his trick... the trick s to be close enough so that no one else could come between but not so close that the number onefeltthreatened. this man didn't... >> rose: so he lost out, too? >> he lost out, too. but mao was a propheti type. he had his own visions of a unique chise ethical mission and he was assailed by his mortality so that he didn't feel he could start this and let somebody else complete it. he had to try to complete in the
his lifetime. so he... most revolutionarys that you can study in history have a specific goal and when they reach it they then institutionalize that goal. mao didn't want to institutionalize anything. he wanted permanent revolution. he wanted peoe to go through this process. >> rose: but he wanted permanent revolution in china. it wasn't that he wanted permanent revolution the way fidel castro wanted to export revolution... >> no, he didn't want to export it but he thought china would... again, would be sort of an... >> rose: admired and therefore... >> an inspiration, fo example, again in e chinese documents-- some of which i quote here-- in 1969 when he became... began considering thidea of opening to the united states he wanted to get an took place the following question. he called in the head... the
australian communist party. he wanted somebody from the west but he wanted the communist and hi asked them the following question. i'm watching the student riots all the world. >> rose: this s in '68. >> '68. >> rose: france, everywhere. >> '68. and i think conversation was early '69 but around that... at that time. he called in that australian leader and he said what we are watching here is this the beginning of a world revolution or the beginning of world war? does it mean that these student demonstrations will spread all over the world or is it the beginning of another world war? if it's... what he meant was this. if it's the former then we have
to join the revolutionary movement. if it's the latter, we have to protect ourselves against invasion and we finally decided on the latter. but he spent hours with that austraan. >> rose: where do y p him as a man who was prepared to do anything for his vision of what his country ought to be including killing millions of people-- yes-- >> he inflicted unspeakable suffering on his people. he killed... or his politics killed tens of millions of people. the cultural revolution tore apart families because he had the idea that unless... everybody should have years of working in the country side to know how the ordinary people lived. but he also unified the country.
he made china a major international player. he's the only significant communist country that survived the ueavals and he switched in the middle of the cold war to the winning side. >> rose: for the west versus the soviet union. >> yeah, but nobody else mansioned so these were significant achievements. westerners would say that suffering does not justify the achievement. th chinese may make a difference... may come to a different conclusion. rose: and you said it's a different appreciation of mao today. >> seems to be. >> rose: tre's so many things to talk about, but you mentioned this notionf worrying about upsings leading to war. where do you think today the
most troubling possibility of war starting is in the world? >> the most troubling one that i see is korea which we've talked about here before that might occur if we wake up one morning and find that the korean structure has... north korea has disintegrated beuse it's after all held together by one family that is going through succession and if that has not been considered before that would trigger the concerns of all surrounding... >> rose: but let me ask you that. we know they're going to have a transition there and their leader is going to die because he's widely known for very, very sick, right? >> right. >> rose: do the chinese and the united statess have
considerations about, look, what happens if he dies? what are the posble scenarios and what do we do to avoid the worst. >> you have to consider south kore what will they do and what will they think? and how easy is it for the chinese to talk about the disintegration of an ally tha is... for which they went to war 50 years ago. so it's not a subject about which i can talk very freely but i'm sure this is on people's mind in both capitals. how they can manage to talk about that, that's a tricky question. the second area which i think is... has an a danger... i can see the dangers of war occurring when there is a situation that countries consider affects them
fundamentally but there is no understanding of what other countries are planning to do and no framework for interpreting these actions. so afghanistan avenue the withdrawal of americans whi is almost certainly going to happen and e interplay of pakistan, india, and eventually other countries. >> rose: like russia >> like iran. like cna which is affected. so tt's an area where everybody is... has a common concern but the situation fluid and for a variety of reasons they haven't been coming to a understanding.
>> rose: who snant the pakistanis? >> no. i... this is a view that i've had now for months. i think the solution... there's no solution to the afgha problem but the way that... the transition from what we are doing to what will haveo happen is not b way of negotiation with the taliban because the taliban are a party to their conflict and once we are out they have no restraint on them. i ha eerienced with an agreement you makehich you think you can enforce and then it turns out you can't. >> rose: vietnam. >> in vietnam. now in afghanistan we won't think we can enforce it for ourselves so therefore there has to be some underanding of how to keep afghanistan from becoming again a terrorist state
and for that the countries that are potential targets has to be involved. the reason it doesn't happen yet is that for the other countries as long as we are there they have no great incentive to commit themselves to anything and on our side those who want to get out are looking for any method that gets them out, like negotiation with taliban. >> rose: then i'm confused. if you need for everybody to be involved in some coming together and understanding the risk and you need those people to be engaged by this but they don't want to be engaged as long as we're occupied, as long as we're there... >> we have to convince them, a, that we're going to get out and, b, that there is an interval which n which we are prepared to adjust our withdrawal to an
internationastatus agrment for the region which then everybody in some way manages to implement. now is that possible? i don't know that. at the beginningover a diplomatic process, you can't tell exactly but you can state... you can stick through your objectives. >> rose: okay, one last historical analogy. you point out the fact that the germans, a developing economic power, and the conflict with britain took place >> right. we're talking about preworld war i. >> exactly right. and therefore you ended up with world war i. so what's the analogy of that to the present relationship between china and if united states? china is the obviously developing economic power. >> well, of course, there's one
difference, the germans had not been as a nation a significant power. china thinks that i always was a significant power and it is restoring its historic position. i think the analogy is that if the leaders of britain and germany in 1910, let's say, had known what the world would look like after the war in 1919 would they not have tried to find some way of a parallel evolution? because if the objective was to keep germany from becoming the strongest european nation, that's happened anyway. but prior to world war i the
country that was most responsible in my opinion was germany because it pursued a military policy that directly challenged aritish command and it conducted a diplomatic policy which was based on humiliating other parties in negotiations in order to teach them that rmany was all powerful. but in this case we have starting with a cleaner slate so we're not in 1910, we're at 1890 in that sense. i mean we can still design our mutual appach but i'm not say i'm not offering here aecipe of specific qualities. i'm urging a way of thinking out
of which we should then develop a specific policy. >> rose: and what's the title of the last chapter? >> "does history repeat itself." >> rose: >> "does history repeat itself." >> rose: here's the last paragraph. in pursuiting peace, everince i was a graduate student well over half a century ago, on the basis of these studies i am aware that the cultural, historic, and strategic gaps in perception that i have describe willed pose formidable challenges for even the best intentioned and most foresighted leadership on both sides. on the other hand, where history confined to the mechanical repetition of the mast, no transformation would ever have occurred. every great achievement was a vision before it became a reality. in that sense it arose from commitment, not resignation, to the inevitable. in his essay perpetual peace emmanuel cant argued that peace would eventually come to the world in one or two ways, by human insight or by conflict and
catastrophes of a magnitude tt left humanity no other choice. we are at such a juncture. when chao enlie agreed on the communique that announced a secret visit he said this will shake the rld. what a culnation if 40 years later the united states and china could merge their efforts not to shake the world but to build it. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you very much. >> henry kissinger for the hour. the bo is called "on china." it is history; it is memoir; is it strategy; and it is insight into the peopl who made up china and the people who came from the united states to try to engage and what the fears were and what the hopes were and what the events were that pro poled history forward. thank you for joining us. see you next time.
narrator: explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this. made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. man: doing the laugh-in show is my second favorite thing in the whole world. my first is having an unclean yak sit on my dinner. george schlatter: set your time machine for 1968. it was the age of aquarius, vietnam, sit-ins, love-ins and america's favorite. man: rowan and martin's. woman: laugh-in! george schlatter: my name is george schlatter. in 1968 i was young, crazy and lucky enough
to help create and produce a new series that people say changed television for all time. we introduced stars like goldie hawn, lily tomlin, flip wilson and a host of others. we had cameo appearances by megastars like john wayne, jack lemmon, sammy davis, kirk douglas and even president richard nixon. so, try to relax as we pop a peek back into the hysterical moments we shared on, "rowan and martin's laugh-in." announcer: the monday night movie will not be seen tonight so that nbc the nothing but censors network can recall a moment in history when they wouldn't even let us say buttafuco on television. woman: hi! announcer: and now from beautiful downtown burbank, it's time for rowan and martin's laugh-in! woman: on laugh-in we took all the problems and issues of the 60's and put them into a hip, kinda zany, fast, outrageous, irreverent, anarchistic barrage of comedy that changed the look, sound and pace of television.
woman 2: once a week, big stars gathered with us in studio 4 at nbc in what became known as beautiful downtown burbank. man: because every monday night at 8:00 america tuned into. announcer: rowan and martin's laugh-in! ladies and gentlemen mr. sammy davis jr. woman: ♪when you're down and out, lift up your head and shout, i'm down and out! i'm begging!♪ man: i know that there are millions of good people watching laugh-in tonight; i want to remind all of you, that the family that watches laugh-in
together really needs to pray together. man 2: very interesting; but unfortunately this show isn't over. man 3: and now folks here they are the stars of laugh-in two of the nicest guys i've ever had the pleasure of working with, dan rowan and the beautiful dick martin. i can't read it on there because it's not true i don't know who they are. woman: and now folks here's sweethearts. without further ado, dude, doo here's two doo-doo's. man: roman and what? roman and martin. rowan and martin. woman: stan rowan and dick doo-doo! george schlatter: each week america looked forward to the moment when dick told dan of his nocturnal activities over the preceding weekend. dick did love the ladies. man: hey you look a little tired tonight. man 2: well i've been in training. man: been in training, i'm glad to hear that, what are you in training for? man 2: oh didn't i tell you? i got a black belt in gotcha. man: you got a black belt in gotcha?
man 2: sure, look over there. gotcha! see what i mean. man: yeah, gee that's great dick. man 2: thank you; it's a result of rigorous training. hours of clutching, grabbing, squeezing. man: sounds pretty tough. man 2: exhausting, i never knew how strong a girl could be. man: there's a girl in the class? man 2: no there's twelve. man: the rest of the students must like that. man 2: i certainly do. man: take a long time to learn gotcha? man 2: oh yeah. you know there's a beginner's gotcha, intermediate gotcha and then there's advanced gotcha. man: oh, i see. man 2: i went right to advanced. man: i can imagine, head of the class. man 2: well not really, but the instructor did say i was a natural. man: i wld say so, hey look over there. man 2: what do you think i'm stupid? if i look over there, you gonna give me a gotcha. man: yeah, look over where? man 2: over there. man: gotcha! man 2: ahhh! no fair you've been taking lessons. woman: gotcha! man: while dick's running for his life, we'll have time for a few quickies.
man 3: i see it says a dollar a kiss. i'd like one. woman: oh, certainly sir. oh, i don't think i have a dollar. man 4: let's try it again; two step to the left, two step forward, two step to the right. ta, ta, ta da, ta ta ta da. epstein ye be a bumbler. woman: uh, are you irving lazar? man: yes, i'm irving lazar. woman: well congratulations irving, your wife just presented you with a baby boy: george jr. i don't get it. man: how's that grab you dimple lovers! man 2: mike simmons requesting take off clearance for deron zanick aboard his
private plane. come in tower. woman: did you get that mr. zanick? man: hey buddy i want my money back for these; they all have cyclamates in them. man 2: ok. man: could i have a carton of cigarettes please? woman: mr. benny please; you've got to keep it moving, keep it moving, ow! man: ow! woman: you know what my gripe is? i'm sick and tired of hearing all those jokes about chickens. every other group has someone to protect them, nobody's protecting the chickens. why does the chicken cross the road? huh, is that funny? i know a lot of chickens who don't think that's funny. for me i love chickens; especially the legs! man: here chick, chick, chick, chick. here chicky. chick, chick, chick. woman: i want to thank all the members of the
academy for these two fun filled weeks here at west point. woman 2: you're putting me on. man: have i got a surprise for you. man 2: oh you're kidding. you got a goodie for me so early in the evening? man: oh i have, wait to you see this pal. the toast of greenwichillage, in his first appearance anywhere; tiny tim. man 3: you called me? man: ladies and gentlemen the one and only tiny tim. yes and dick wait till you see this, tiny has added a bit of choreography to his usual presentation. man 2: there is nothing usual about tiny tim's presentation. man 3: ♪ i'll tip-toe, through the window, by the window that is where i'll be. come tip-toe through the tulips with me.
knee deep in flowers we'll stray, we'll keep the showers away, and if i kiss you in the garden, in the moonlight. will you pardon me? and tip-toe through the tulips with me.♪ man 4: and now for an interesting change of pace. man 5: here it is, here it is; look celebrity tennis tournament today; record crowd was on hand to see steve
mcqueen win three straight sets from his wife. woman: it can now be reliably reported that today steve mcqueen beat his wife badly in full view of a large crowd. woman 2: jugs! woman 3: mr. garner i admire you very much. man: yes. woman 3: and i've seen all your movies. man: yes goldie? woman 3: that's all. man: well wait a minute; aren't you; you're supposed to shake my hand. woman 3: well if i do that, you'll want to do this. you're not going to trick me jim garner movie star.
men: [singing two separate songs.] woman: mr. benny; i just think you're a wonderful man, i think you're wonderful. man: you do? woman: yeah. man: gee thanks goldie and you're so cute. say how about after the show; you and i going out to dinner you know? woman: yeah i don't see any harm in that. man: oh i wish you could. woman: blow in my ear, i'll follow you anywhere. man: you realize our stag film business is going broke.
man 2: well what are we going to do? we have fortune tied up in mustache and black socks. man: tell you something else worse than that cecil. now we are stuck with our first full length film. you know the title huh? man 2: huh? man: tijuana whoopee. man 2: tijuana whoopee; we've got to find a way to sell it or we wipe it out. man: that's the worst accent i've ever heard. my friend i've got it for you. we will sell it to the california school system. we will call it a sex education film. man 2: with a title like tijuana whoopee they won't go for that. man: wait, wait i will come up with something. we will call it leave it to beaver. man 2: make no difference we put it on abc nobody gonna watch it anyway. george schlatter: one week, dick just didn't make it into the studio.
so i ran down the hall to, "the tonight show" and got johnny carson to come to our studio and read dick's cards. what a night. man: well, dick i have to say you look pretty chipper tonight. what makes you look so great tonight huh? man 2: last night. man: nothing like a good night's sleep to make a fella feel like a new man right? man 2: oh, yes there is. man: well dick i gather you've been up to your old tricks again. man 2: no i was up to a new trick last night. man: i don't think i want to hear about it. man 2: she's a nudist, a flute player in an all nudist orchestra. man: she's a nudist flutist? man 2: i didn't know that. man: well in any case i don't want to hear about it. man 2: actually she doesn't play very well but she's got a bow you won't forget. man: you mean to tell me, you mean to tell me you went out with a nudist? man 2: that's funny so did i. man: well where did you take her? man 2: oh i found a nice, you know, intimate little place. you know, soft music, candlelight,
you know, dinner. man: gee that sounds great, where is it? man 2: my place. man: how did you get her to go to your place? man 2: well you blow in her ear, she'll follow you anywhere. she's right up there. man: must have been quite an evening. man 2: you bet your sweet bippy! man: a nudist flutist; i didn't know you were such a music lover. man 2: well i wasn't until i met her. man: i'd like to meet her. man 2: i'll bring her on the show next week. man: well we can't put a nudist flutist on the show. man 2: no, but i figured if she hung around backstage she could tide us over during the commercials. man: i, i think we better go to the party dick. man 2: i'll drink to that. man: and for your own good richard i think you ought to forget about this girl. man 2: what girl? man: the nudist flutist. man 2: i'm surprised at you; a married man talking like that. come on folks we better get to the party. i apologize for dan. i don't know what got into him. man: you told me about this woman.
man 3: i hear governor reagan is really worried about earthquakes in california. he's afraid berkley may shift even further to the left. woman: all the kids in my school are really proud of the astronauts. imagine to ay that high for that long. woman 2: reverend mother, get over here quickly there's a bunch of people here and they're all flying. woman 3: sonny and i are perfectly compatible. as soon as there's a problem my psychiatrist contacts his psychiatrist and they work it out. man: you know it's all in how you look at it. what you call riots, we call group therapy.
pages under swingers. one ring a ding ding, two ring a ding ding. oh gracious good afternoon is this the sinatra residence? are you his maid? oh you're his girl friday? what about saturday and sunday? little phone company humor for swing lovers, sweetie. why don't you put frankie boy on? oh gracis good afternoon; is this mr. frank sinatra? oh mr. sinatra, this is ms. tomlin of the telephone company. why thank you, why thank you so much for asking but i don't have a bird. woman 5: [funny bird noise]
[funny bird noise] woman 4: well i'm calling mr. sinatra about an unpaid bill and i was wondering what you're going to doobie, doobie, doobie do about it? oh, well i'd love to do it your way, but it's against phone company regulations. man: very interesting. man 2: step to the front please. woman: and now folks it's sock it to me time. man: sock it to me honey! woman: well i've never been bald before. woman 2: hey it must be sock it to me time! woman 3: sock it to me?
man: sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me. woman: sock it to yourself! man: sock it to, me? man: um, can i have a serious moment with you please? no, no, no, no. i just want to ask you a question. do you believe in the hereafter? woman: of course i do. man: well you know what i'm here after. man 2: we were the first show in television history to have a live-in censor. woman: next morning, censors run into
rehearsals going, "george you're not going to get away with this. we're furious. my son told me about that bit at breakfast this morning." and do you know what george said? "i'm worried about your son." george schlatter: we created phrases like, "sock it to me," " look that up in your funk and wagnalls," and, "blow in my ear, i'll follow you anywhere." we coined the phrase, "you bet your sweet bippy." the censors spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the word, "bippy" meant. they were sure it was an unknown body part, especially when we explained a, "bippy" was a little, "bip." six of our censors wound up in silly city, in rubber rooms, wearing canvas coats. we're proud of that.