baroni had said i'm giving you no reason at all, or suppose mr. baroni had said we're going to do a traffic study, but it's going to be a sham traffic study. would you still have had authority? >> certainly the first one. he certainly had at any point that discretion to say, as somebody had done very early on in creating these three traffic lanes, there were not required but anything, at any point in time couldn't said i think they should have a fourth or think they should have only two or only one here that was fully within his authority. as the government argued and proved his case below, that was their summation, was he abused e the authority was entrusted with. >> and the second, recorded a sham traffic study? >> i think he can do that. i think as a functional of the matter, who knows what actually results from that but just he has the authority to say were going to do a traffic study because i want to do this thing, and for public reasons, it's easier to do a traffic study. >> you said this is not a sufficiency question. but what is it if it'

baroni had said, i'm giving you no reason at all. or suppose mr. baroni had said we're going to do a traffic study but it's going to be a sham traffic study. would he still have had authority. >> certainly the first one. he certainly had at any point the discretion to say, as somebody had done very early on in creating these three traffic lanes, they weren't required by anything, at any point in time could have said, i think they should have a fourth or i think they should have only two or only one and that was fully within his authority and as the government argued and proved this case below, that was their point. that was their summation was he abused the authority he was entrusted. >> and the second? we're going to do a sham traffic study. >> i think he can do that. i think as a functional matter. who knows what actually results from that. but, yes, he has the authority to say we're going to do a traffic study because i want to do this thing and for public reasons, it's easier to do a traffic study. >> you said this was not a sufficiency questio

mr. steppian and miss kelly continue to refuse, then they too honestly will be moving toward contempt charges just like david wildstein. in their case, it is an open question whether they will plead the fifth in order to refuse to testify and that's an important question, right? after what david wildstein did, is everyone going to sit there and plead the fifth? is everyone going to refuse to answer questions? when new jersey spotlight published this piece. rule prevents staff from testifying in bridge gate. senator robert gordon, who's chairman of the legislative oversight committee in new jersey. he announced he had been told by the christie administration, that the christie administration policy that no members of the governor's office are allowed to appear before legislative committees. senator gordon told the new jersey spotlight this is a christie administration policy? there was no such policy before this in previous administrations. now senator gordon wanted testimony from people w

he said he asked mr. baroni what happened here. it does raise the question, after two people at the port authority resigned, wouldn't you as governor start asking questions? >> willful ignorance keeps coming back to me as a motivation for christie. but the other thing i think just to keep in mind here is we may be at a moment when the political and media culture in new jersey is changing in a way it hasn't since the moment chris christie was inaugurated. >> how? >> chris christie has been the most intimidating governor that new jersey has had, that new jersey politicians have had to deal with and the new jersey press has had to deal with since tom kean about 30 years ago, because of his popularity. his enormous public popularity and skills behind the scenes. he's had alliances with key democrats in the state that have helped him get major legislative things through and the question is, does that all break up now, do the democrats start turning on him and do the media start paying attention to stories they have not pursued because c

bill baroni on the left. very happy. mr. wildstein in the sunglasses and striped tie talking with governor christie. these two men were the first two christie appointees/allies to resign during the course of this scandal. they were number one and number two. the third person to lose his job in this scandal, bill stepien, chris christie's two-time campaign manager, about to become the head of the new jersey republican party and widely expected to be the campaign manager for governor christie if he mounted a bid for president in 2016. bill stepien was the third person to lose his job during this scandal. the following morning after bill stepien lost his job, bridget kelly lost hers. fired by christie a day after the e-mail surfaced, "time for traffic problems in ft. lee." those are the first four christie allies or staffers that have left or lost their jobs since the scandal started. as of today, we now have number five. christina genovese renna. it was her e-mail that proved that governor christie didn't tell the truth when h

mr. bobbert, who has been on this story since the beginning. i have to ask you, the standing up to msnbc thing, is that just new jersey? like is that -- are you guys used to getting attacked on the basis of your reporting, no matter who you report on? >> i'll say that i think tension between politicians and aggressive reporting organizations, news organizations is not uncommon. in this instance, i can speak for myself, we are representing readers in our coverage area, which were impacted by this, there's no partisan motivation, and i'd also point out that the republicans voted for this legislative committee to investigate this matter. chris christie has someone who's conducting an internal review, it seems like on both sides of the aisle, there's acknowledgement that there are unanswered questions, i think the media is perfectly within its right to pursue this. >> calling a partisan witch hunt when it's every republican in the assembly voted to proceed with the investigation. it's hilario

i never got an answer from mr. baroni. and i kept my mouth closed until yesterday. it was time now for us to speak out because it affects so many other people. there is a culture in trenton, there is a culture which is unfolding which should have unfolded before the last gubernatorial election. this governor has been dually elected. he deserves to be sworn-in. but the truth shall be known by everybody. it won't matter what statue of life, what status of life you're in, what party you belong to, this is going to be a big deal, wolf. i guarantee you. >> and will it directly involve the governor? >> well, that remains to be seen. we'll watch it unfold. but who would have thought a month ago when we were dismissed as simply people trying to bring some partisan politics to an election that already happened, we know about that in washington as you know. who would have thought we'd be here today listening to a gentleman who resigned as mr. baroni take the fifth amendment on what you would call and i would call inane questions. there is something beyond bridget kelly. if yo

there was no traffic study and in fact it was a coaching job by mr. kwon of mr. baroni. and that's what they're looking at in terms of these subpoenas. that's what they're going after. >> well, you know, the cover-up is always worse than whatever it is they're trying to cover up. that's definitely what they think. that's why they're going for this. the other thing is when bill baroni testified, he really irked a lot of people. people thought he was playing a game with them. now they got the subpoena power. >> why does governor christie keep saying, at least as late as he has talked about it that there may have been a traffic stop that turned into a political punishment job, or there might have been a political punishment job that turned into a traffic study. give me a surmise. why would he keep backing up. >> beats the heck out of me. we were surprised when he said it could have been a traffic study. the port authority already said there is no traffic study. we can't figure out why he went back. although he has been off his game lately. he also said he didn't know anythi

there are only three people who are invited, the government, mr. baroni or miss kelly. charlie: one of them called you as a witness. chris: if i had i would have come. charlie: you would have relished coming? chris: i don't know about that. charlie: you said you had been waiting for three years to make your case, and this would have been in front of everybody under oath to make your case. chris: i have made my case under oath privately. charlie: what does that mean? chris: at the u.s. attorney's office. under oath. for hours. and i would have been happy to go to court and testify. and then there would not have -- would have been seven people who said she was lying. charlie: so in your career back to the question, do you intend to run for office again? chris: we will see. right now i do not. but you never say never in this life. i am 54 years old. i am term limited as governor so my term here will end on january 18 of 2018. will i ever run for anything again is a decision i will make in the future. i will not preclude it. charlie: there are those who will argue like chri

from what i know at this point mr. baroni and mr. wildstein's position is lanes were closed to do a traffic study. and i've heard nothing from them that changes their position. i now see e-mails which indicate that there is a political overtone to what went on. i don't know what the situation is. i don't know whether -- i think i answered this before, i don't know whether this was some type of rogue political operation that morphed into a traffic study, or traffic study that morphed into an additional rogue political operative. i don't know. well, listen, as best i can, but, you know, mr. wildstein is scheduled to testify at the legislature. not like he's available for interview. as i said in response to a question over here, i'm not going to get in the middle of the legislative process with people that they've already noticed to be witnesses. i think that would be inappropriate. let them do their job. because if i did then i'd be accused of trying to play around with testimony, which i'm not going to get involved in. marsha. [ inaud

. >> so mr. baroni told you nothing was prepared. but in the documents turned over by wildstein, you have this power point that was being prepared but not concluded. >> and the power point shows that the people of ft. lee would suffer immeasurably by this plan. >> wow. e.j., it doesn't seem like this traffic report is going to be the answer here. >> if you need a traffic study to show you that ft. lee would be jammed with traffic if you shut down two lanes of this bridge, you shouldn't be in the transportation business. i mean, it's absurd on its face. bill bennett, not often quoted on this network, once said that social science involves the elaborate demonstration of the obvious by methods that are obscure. this was a demonstration of the obvious by a method that was unnecessary and probably contrived. >> well, we're going to have to leave it there. but i can say this, that we're hearing more names, more questions, and you heard tonight assemblyman wisniewski saying they want to extension on the time so they can do the work to get t

a close christie ally helping to prep mr. baroni for parts of four to five days before mr. baroni claimed the ft. lee lane closures were part of legitimate traffic study. meanwhile former port authority official david wildstein having leveled the charge that evans exists that christie knew of the lane closures during the time of the lane closures is a target of an attack from governor christie. we'll dive into that momentarily as well. it's something you would normally expect in a political campaign against a political opponent. governor christie's office also today sent supporters a virtual bucketful of information suggesting the latest big accusation is really the media's fault. begins with criticism of the original "new york times" headline from friday, includes editorials, interviews, tweets espousing the idea "the new york times" headline was sloppily and misleading. all this surfacing before whatever mountain of new information may soon come out from documents right now are either being collected or making their way to the new jersey investigative committee in respons

baroni for that testimony. can you give us insight into who phil kwon is and how he connects back to governor christie? >> he was a former nominee to the supreme court. he was not approved for that position and then appointed by christie to a position as an attorney in the legal department of the port authority. this is a legal department that has several attorneys. it's a large legal staff. phil kwon and at least one other attorney was recommended for jobs at the port authority. so these are people who moved from the christie administration to the legal department within the port authority. >> and then once in the legal department for whatever reason were tasked with prepping mr. baroni for his false testimony about the traffic study. you see why this story makes me so crazy. let me just ask you one last question, shawn, in terms of what happens -- what happens next. and what happens with governor christie as he's trying to govern the state while also managing this fallout. the timeline about the governor's in

that e-mail was send to bill baroni, so he knew. we also know mr. baroni was sent a letter from the mayor of ft. lee on thursday of the shutdown, telling him, quote, our emergency service vehicles are suffering tremendous response time delays. we also know mr. baroni received phone messages about emergency public safety matters, messages to which bill baroni did not respond, even though we know he got them. so when bill baroni testified to the legislature that day in late november, and he said, the port authority took care of it, the port authority, at all times, we were monitoring the situation, to make sure no emergency vehicles were having any trouble, we stood ready to change any traffic patterns as need be, if emergency vehicles were having any problems, when he said that to the legislature in late november, it was not true and he knew that it was not true. so, yeah, bill baroni was one of the first people who had to resign in this scandal and now he's been subpoenaed and he's been told to hand over his cell phone and all the rest. yeah, that's

the jury found she was responsible as was mr. baroni. charlie: you do not know motivation. chris: i do not. i have never spoken to them. i can only tell you what they said in the trial. charlie: it is not just her. david said he told you about it at the 9/11 memorial. chris: that is not what he said, by the way. said was that bill baroni told me. what?- they told me said to me is that there was traffic at the george washington bridge and his -- the mayor was not getting his phone calls returned. any ofno recollection of them saying anything like that. let's be clear. -- you: even if they had are saying you had no recollection. saying chris: if they would have told me that we are creating traffic at the george washington bridge in order to punish the mayor for not endorsing you, i would have her member that. they never said that. charlie: bridget kelly said she understood it to be a traffic study. chris: that is what she understood it to be. in the course of my administration that have been over 1000 traffic studies done, not one of them has ever been brought to me to ask me

baroni for his apees appearance before the transportation committee. that was the cover-up that mr. baroni was sent in to articulate to the transportation committee, not under oath and not as a result of subpoena. but in this letter, mr. wildstein's attorney says that the counseling was conducted over a period of four to five days and mr. wildstein was present for much of it. that means that the port authority attorney actually counselled bill baroni, if in fact this letter is truthful, actually counselled bill baroni on what to say on the cover-up. so there's another little subtext in this letter that was released today. >> loretta weinberg, hold on. i want you to stay with us and i want kate to stay with us and our correspondents and analysts. there's a lot more to digest. we'll take a quick break and resume our coverage. potentially very damning evidence against the governor. we'll have more what is going on right after this. ♪ [ male announcer ] what kind of energy is so abundant, it can help provide the power for all this? natural gas. ♪ more than ever before, america's ele

it would be mr. baroni. the times reported that is how the christie administration managed 9/11 wreckage for their own political gain. today the times reported that the christie administration has decided to stop doing that. at least the christie administration appointees have decided to stop doing that. the person who was chosen to replace bill baroni has decided she will give up the decision making authority over that 9/11 steel. the decision that bill baroni had ceded to his own office to use the ruins of 9/11 to help governor christie's re-election campaign. treating the relics like they were campaign buttons or swag bags at a campaign party. the person who has replaced bill baroni has decided to stop doing that, and allow the person who oversees all the other states to also oversee new jersey. it's weird timing, right? the same week that the new york times is reporting this cringe inducing story about political scheming by the christie administration involving one of the most sacred events in american h

this picture shows mr. baroni in his capacity as an executive of the port authority. he's speaking in 2012 in this photo. and this is at a ceremony where, see what he's got his hands on there? he is presenting to the mayor of secaucus, new jersey, one of the pieces of steel from the world trade center ruins. that is an actual piece of the world trade center he's giving to the mayor of secaucus. why did that mayor get that piece of the world trade center towers? "the new york times" today reports that beyond this difficult worldwide how will you commemorate 9/11 application process, another way people got pieces of the actual steel from the wreckage of the world trade center from that terrorist attack was to be a new jersey mayor who the christie administration was wooing for an endorsement for governor chris christie's re-election. according to the "times," pieces of steel from the ruins of the world trade center were, "presented by the port authority of new york and new jersey to 20 carefully chosen new jersey mayors who sat atop a list of 100 whose endorsements gove

then mr. baroni asks, just good? then he swears. then mr. wildstein goes on to assure him other trenton people who appear to be staffers in governor christie's office thought he did just great with his cover-up testimony. the "star-ledger" appears to be reporting that is where mr. wildstein texts this statement, o'toole statement ready, to bill baroni. o'toole statement ready. he sent that message right after bill baroni finished his testimony. sure enough on that same day, senator kevin o'toole released a statement that took the bill baroni line, repeated the story from his testimony, repeated the cover story about the supposed traffic study. the next day he published a similar version of the statement as an op-ped in the newspaper, in the "bergen record." think about this for a second. in the legislature, the highest profile person advancing the cover-up, advancing the false cover story about the fake traffic study in a statement he released from his office then an op-ped he released the next day, which apparently was ready to go as soon a

even more specifically, the planning of bill baroni's testimony to the legislature. where mr. baroni tried to hock that false cover story about what happened on the bridge saying it was about a traffic study. most of the subpoenas issued last week asked about the cover-up. a number of them asked specifically about a meeting that the committee seems to believe bill baroni attended along with philip kwon and regina egea later promoted to be governor christie's chief of staff and somebody named nicole crifo, also served with a subpoena. she was his liaison to the port authority. at least she worked for governor christie, past tense, because nicole crifo who investigators appear to believe they have been involved in a meeting about bill baroni's false testimony, the same nicole crifo referenced by david wildstein while giving feedback to baroni on the traffic study, assured him saying i texted bridget and nicole and they were very happy. that same, we think, nicole crifo no longer works for chris christie because she just got a brand new job. she just got a brand new job with, gue

wildstein and mr. baroni, the two high-ranking folks at the port authority of new york and new jersey, left their jobs. if you didn't believe it was anything more than a traffic study in september, which is plausible, and you didn't think it was anything more than political posturing in october, which is still plausible, at the point that your two top guys at the port authority leave their jobs, not because they have a great opportunity at, say, another cable network, that he might like, the only conclusion would be, then, that maybe there's something more there. and that's really when most people, even supporters of the governor would say, why didn't you ask him hard questions. and i think that's a problem for the governor. he's run this supposedly very tight, tight ship, where he's supposedly in charge of everything. and now we have to believe, well, i really wasn't in charge of everything. there were other people that i gave enough trust to that i was comfortable that they did what they wanted to do

and bill baroni is not so great either. the letter charges the lane changes were directed by mr. wildstein. as for mr. baroni's testimony -- >> this traffic here -- >> no, i understand. >> was flowing into the bridge. >> the port authority claims they had nothing to do with it. >> excellent point. >> it's a convenient narrative since both have resigned in disgrace. back in trenton, both sides are lawyering up. assemble democrats have hired the guy who put blagojevich behind bars. and today christie announced he would be hiring an entire legal team headed by a former federal prosecutor under rudy guiliani, currently representing chevron in a multibillion dollar pollution case. the flurry of lawyers, a sign of things to come. here come the subpoenas. the assembly's special committee indicated today that 20 subpoenas would be issued from the assembly for 17 individuals and three organizations. then the new jersey state senate began its investigation today. >> senator weinberg. >> state senator loretta weinberg said she planned to ask for documents from three other christie officials

he says he could not reach mr. baroni after years of success and said is somebody mad at me? that's what he's trying to prove, that somebody was mad at ft. lee. in newark, bryan thompson nbc news news. >>> and a new poll shows sinking support for governor christie in new jersey. the rutgerings poll shows just 23% of voters in the state have a favorable opinion of christie. >>> wells fargo gets a scolding on capitol hill for the way it treated some of its customers. >>> plus a deadly police shooting in tulsa draws debate across the country. tonight the officer's attorney and the victim's family are telling two very different stories about what happened here. fios is not cable. we're wired differently. so we wired the wagner's house with 100 meg internet. which means that in the time it takes mrs. wagner's car to arrive for the airport, she can use fios to download the movie "up in the air" to watch while she's...up in the air. that's the power of fiber optics. and right now get our best offer ever, super fast 100 meg internet, tv and phone for just $69.99 per month online. cab

mr. baroni throughout his testimony was pure offense. he made the case that ft. lee hadn't been the victim here of some purposely caused traffic jam. ft. lee was the perpetrator. ft. lee was the problem. watch the point that he's making. it's very clear. watch this. >> so ft. lee global traffic enters the special entrance to the bridge here. that arrangement enables ft. lee residents to skip the general traffic backup at the george washington bridge. the result, 12 lanes, a quarter of those lanes are available to ft. lee local traffic. and that local traffic, and 75% of the lanes are for everybody else. while the port authority is very sensitive to the effect traffic has on our host municipalities. >> we at the port authority are super sensitive to the effect of traffic on our cities. we have nothing to be embarrassed about with this traffic study. ft. lee is getting more than their fair share of access to the bridge for years now. so yes, we had a traffic study to show how selfish ft. lee a is and how much they are hurting everybody else. that was totally made u

questions have been raised by who prepared mr. baroni to appear before the committee. and the portrait that emerges shows a shrewd politician who creatively used his legal and political power to forge key alliances while carefully shaping his image. i'm joined by paul butler, a former federal prosecutor and bert ross, the former mayor of f ft. lee. thanks to you both for joining me. bert, i want to start with you and talk a little bit about christie, the prosecutor. i think one of the things we learned in this "new republic" piece is that he very wisely figured out to use carrots and sticks, if you will, in the negotiations on various cases he was working on. does that surprise you? >> well, it did come as a revelation. i, like a lot of people, thought he spoke with straight tongue. what we're finding is that he's a fraud. his entire image self-created was of a reform are and he's anything but. he looks more and more like a machine politician unfortunately. >> new jersey politics, let's be honest, has something of a reputation. you as being pretty tough and you yoursel

when it blows up and mr. baroni testifies and said it was some traffic study, there are no results and traffic studies nowadays are done by computers. at that point he should have been talking to baroni to say, why did you do this and did anybody tell you to do this if in fact he has nothing to do with it. there's a lot more to come out here and a lot more answers that the governor will have to deliver. >> senator, give us a sense, what's your experience been like in the past working with governor christie? >> well, not too many legislators work with governor christie. he doesn't interact with legislators. what i've seen and heard he can be very vin did tif. if you don't go along with me, i'm going to get retribution from you -- >> he just won re-election but huge landslide margins, doesn't he have a broad coalition of support? >> well, let's talk about that. you're talking about he's involved with democratic power brokers not members of the legislature. they deliver him votes, simple as that. in my opinion t

baroni. wine winestein has pleaded guilty to many charges. we will see what he has to say in what comes from this. i think the governor has been exposed through all of this. whether he is guilty of knowing or not knowing to me is secondary. he has been exposed and i think his administration has proven to be a disaster for new jersey citizens. that's more important to me than dealing with the intricacies. the courts will deal with that. >> are you confident that christie didn't know? >> i believe the governor and i think he took immediate action when he found out. this is true leadership. the underlying behavior was appalling. i condemn it but leaders are faced with these types of crises and i think that he took immediate action when he found out about it. >> it's being done in his name. in the name of his reelection campaign. that's what prosecutors are saying. the mayor is refusing to endorse chris chris christie's reelection campaign. that these would feel the impulse to do something as dramatic to get the mayor to endorse the governor does

so did mr. wildstein. it's unfortunate for them that a mistake got made near the end of their tenure. but it's just the way life works sometimes. >> compared to that he's barely offered guadagno on constable anything. maybe we're reading too much into this. it seems possible as more and more revelations emerge, christie is a lot more hesitant to go to bat for his s subordinates and a lot less confident they'll be vindicated in the end. talk about all of this, i want to bring in democratic state senator linda greenstein of new jersey, charlie style with the bergen record. so, bob, i'll start with you. we had this little back and forth at the governor's office this week. it seemed -- i was thinking of past circumstances where political allies where one politician's ally is embattled and you sort of expect the public statement of full confidence, total support, all of this. am i reading too much or has that been noticeably absent? >> noticeably absent. so as his relationship with the press has changed since t