dr. vincent di maio. heard of him? probably. he's like the grand dad of pathology, he was the medical examiner in beaux county in texas and made incredible arguments, so many points the prosecution made. listen to the first part, he goes after what the prosecution said. first of all, if george zimmerman tried to put out trayvon von martin's hands after she hot him, why were the hands under the body f. george zimmerman said trayvon mapp martin said you got me, how is that possible after being shot in the heart? listen to his explanation. >> even if i, right now, reached across, put my hand through your chest, grabbed your heart and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 seconds or walk over to me, because the thing that's controlling your move the and ability to speak is the brain, and that has a reserved supply of 10 to 15 seconds. >> reporter: that is powerful stuff, piers. you cannot argue with this guy's dee meaner, too. he was looking to the jury and telling them his explanation. >> the second thing

it's been dominated by the evidence of forensic pathologist dr. vincent di maio. the jury was not called into the court until 10:30 this morning so the defense could hear arguments about whether an animated depiction of george zimmerman describing the shooting was allowed to be seen. let's go now to msnbc's craig melvin who has been following the trial in sanford. craig, we just had via video link the testimony of elloise dilligard, who was a resident in the twin lakes area and knew george zimmerman as a member of neighborhood watch. >> reporter: yeah, and martin, what you just said is about all we've gotten so far out of elloise dilligard, again, a residents there in the same gated condo complex as george zimmerman. she is testifying via facetime because she is under the weather. again, at this point not exactly sure how her testimony is going to fit into the larger defense strategy here, but elloise dilligard, she's been on the stand now for about 5 or 10 minutes. we also found out just before she began to testify, martin, that according to mark o'mara, she is g

the gentleman on the stand right now, dr. vincent di marx -- maio. he is the defense's first witness of the day. >> craig melvin reporting outside the courthouse in sanford and we will take you inside the courthouse now. this is the forensic pathologist, the gunshot expert, dr. di maio. >> 1981 when you began your work at the bexar county medical examiner's office, were you able to work as a consultant privately in other cases outside bexar county? >> yes, sir. >> what kind of work would you do in that regard? >> mostly civil cases and then a few criminal cases. outside bexar county, i could testify for the defense for prosecution. i did -- you don't do many private criminal cases, such as like what i'm doing now. i'd run about, you know, two to four a year at the most. >> you have been working as a consultant since the beginning of 2007 then, if i've done the math correctly. i'm sorry. exclusively as a -- >> right, since january of 2007. >> in other words, you've been in private practice as a consultant since january of 2007? >> yes. >> and the majo

injuries from his head, according to dr. di maio, came from some serious blows. perhaps concrete. he also, as you indicated said there are at least six injuries. there were at least six injuries to george zimmerman's head. meanwhile, on cross-examination, bernie de la rionda, in some of his most animated cross examining could not testify as to who started the fight, couldn't testify as to who threw the first punch and also couldn't testify whether trayvon martin at any point was actually grabbed the gun as have been said. they also wonder how the medical examiner has handled the clothes. as you indicated, dr. di maio, the star witness today as you indicated, also as you indicated mark o'mara saying, giving every impression, the last witness that we saw, the neighbor, one of george zimmerman's neighbors, eloise dilligard would be the last witness for the defense. right now inside the courtroom they're wrapping up a hearing, a hearing that started this morning. this is a hearing about whether this specific animation is going to do be admitted. the defense spent two hours this mornin

that's the distance that dr. di maio was from martin. that was one of his highlights from the testimony today. he went on to say that the gun was against their clothing, not pregt against the skin. he ultimately said the medical evidence that he was presented is consistent with george zimmerman's story. injuries from his head, according to dr. di maio, came from some serious blows. perhaps concrete. there were at least six injuries to george zimmerman's. . some of his most animated that he could not testify as to who started the fight, couldn't testify as to who threw the first punch and also couldn't testify whether trayvon martin at any point has actually grabbed the gun as have been said. they also wonder how the medical. also, as you indicated, mark, one of george zimmerman's neighbors elloise dell guard, would be the last. they're wrapping up a hearing. this is a hearing whether this specific animation is going to be admitted. the defense spent two hours this. this is an animation that essentially de. . defense witness accounts is b

di maio under examination by the prosecution. >> i'm saying that the physical evidence is consistent with mr. martin being over mr. zimmerman. >> and is it not also consistent with mr. martin's pulling away from zimmerman on the ground, and you would have the same angle. he is pulling away, and zimmerman is shooting him at that time? >> yes. >> let me make sure, i understand what you're saying. that you can hit somebody and not leave any bruising on your knuckles, is that correct? >> that is correct, sir. >> in other words, george zimmerman could have hit trayvon martin and not leave any bruising on his knuckles. >> that is correct, sir. >> a photograph at the scene, i apologize, you have blood there. i put the hand over that, right? >> okay, yes. >> what do you expect my hand to have on it? >> blood. >> joining me now, msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, and a former homicide prosecutor. lisa bloom, the big testimony of the day, what is your overall assessment of how that went in? >> i think it went in very well for the defense because the prosecution didn't go for the jugular. >> what

witness number one in front of the jury, anyway, is dr. vincent di maio. he's on the stand and this guy wrote the book about csi and forensic pathology. let's see where he gets and how far he gets. let's go live. >> followed by the bullet and then followed by the soot or the burning powder behind it. >> right. and that's why blanks, people think blank cartridges are dangerous -- are not dangerous. you can kill yourself with them. if you take a gun with a blank cartridge and put it against your chest, the gas formed will just tear right through your skin and muscle into your lung. and people, you know, kid around and will put it to their head. they could die. it goes right in -- you don't need the bullet to kill you with contact wounds. >> let's continue, though, with some of your experience and some of your writings. have you written any articles about head trauma, in particular? >> yes, i wrote one peer-reviewed article and then i've written a chapter in my book on forensic pathology, on head injuries. >> head injuries, meaning such thing as blunt force t

as dr. di maio pointed out there is oxygen where the brian functions well for 15 or 20 seconds. thereafter, cells start to die by about five or six minutes, the entire brain is dead and the brain waves go flat. you -- you really are dead legally, and so i think what he said was very crucial because we know that george zimmerman said that after he shot trayvon martin, martin -- trayvon martin said you got me. so he could speak, and we also had to explain the reason. why trayvon martin's arms were underneath kind of clutching at his chest. he had to be able to move, so this would explain that. >> so this really -- danny, bolsters on the defense's case and verifies if you believe this witness, what george zimmerman's story is. >> of course, it's more than that. this is a terrific expert. a terrific pathologist who uses imagery to drive complex issues home. we're talking about some -- even though he says it's not a complex case and he's probably right from a forensic stand point, talking about the operations of the heart and how it affects the brain and how long you can live. the id

di maio. he says by looking at the evidence surrounding the gunshot, in his view george zimmerman's story adds up. >> it's my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was two to four inches away from the skin. so the barrel of the gun was against the clothing, the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing, but the clothing itself had to be two to four inches away from the body at the time mr. martin was shot. this is consistent with mr. zimmerman's account that he -- that mr. martin was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot. >> i want to bring in our legal panel to go over some of these key moments of the day. specifically linda kenney baden is our guest along with jean casarez and sunny hostin. considering how respected mr. di maio is, literally the guy who wrote the textbook on forensic pathology, how do you counter that? how do you counter what he is saying? >> i think you do exactly what the state did. they countered him using their theory of the case. for the defense, j

di maio was most effective in his cross-examination. he was calm, he understood the questions. he didn't give an answer when questions seemed to implicate a different answer. he says he acted in self-defense and pleaded not guilty to second degree murder. and on the admissibility of text messages from trayvon martin's phone as well as a ruling on a 3d animation are expected this morning. arguments about them grew heated late into the night. mara, back to you. >> sarah, thanks so much. >>> turning now to business, to nbc's seema mody has business. >> good morning. oil is at an industry report where the incompetent be dus stri says it dropped. they're cracking down on debt collection practices. laws governing how companies can go after consumers behind on their bills don't apply to firms trying to recoup caps directly to people. regulators says bank and department stores can hound people with phone calls. the senate holds a hearing on smithfield foods taken over by a chinese company. they plan to ask them about food safety and ownership issues. >> seema, thank you for that. south

dr. di maio said no. you're no testifying about who started the fight? no. they also got him to concede a couple of points that will be helpful. he said he doesn't trust eyewitness testimony because they're always wrong. i think that really hurt the defense's case and i think it was helpful to the prosecution that he did concede that trayvon martin could have been backing away. that shows that perhaps george zimmerman wasn't in reasonable fear of dying and didn't exhaust all means of getting away, which is what he would have to do if he started the fight. >> you were inside and i know you kaeept a close eye on the women in the jury. >> i did. any time you're in the courtroom and a renowned witness came and the jury was watching, listening, taking notes up and down, looking at demeanor. one thing important that he testified to is he believes there are six separate impacts to george zimmerman's head. that's important if one is reasonably in fear of imminent death. he said there are two lacerations to his head. what he said, though, is it was from two different

di maio's testimony, saying he was reasonably in fear of danger. that particular football has been back and forth across the field so many times i'm not sure the jury is even going to be able to sort out who they think was the screaming one. >> and lisa, the defense will presumably want to stay on the fight as much as they possibly can. because it is only within the moments, whatever that is, minutes of that fight that the justification for homicide can exist. >> yes, here is the best defense argument, you know what? george zimmerman probably did make terrible assumptions of trayvon martin, he probably did profile him. that was a big mistake, he shouldn't have done that. but it was not illegal. he is not on trial for making assumptions and profiling. he got out of the car, he followed, but then he was assaulted and was attacked. and then they will get into the physical fight and all the legal and medical testimony to support that. i hope the testimony on rebuttal shows that he was wearing a baggy t-shirt, that the outer sweatshirt would have been e

i do -- >> dr. di maio answered that. dr. di maio not rebutted answered that question clearly. remember he said because trayvon martin at that time was on top and took his jacket. that's why the gunshot was two to four inches away, that's why -- >> this is the problem, piers -- >> this is -- >> this is exactly the problem. everything is compelling. the problem is when everything is compelling, that's reasonable doubt. >> it is. >> if the prosecution left a closing and we're still saying, well, the defense has a compelling argument and haven't spoken yet, that's not a good sign for the prosecution. >> let me bring in richard because you're a jury expert. this jury, they have the weight of the world shoulders watching here. it's not just any old trial. a trial leading the news bulletins in america now, network and cable. this is the biggest deal they will ever have to face. what are they thinking tonight? what do you think their thinking will be over the next couple days? the truth is that verdicts are rarely just about evidence or the law. they are about human judgment, and both

as mark said, i think they should have ended on dr. di maio. we may hear this witness come back for some additional testimony. we've heard rumblings about ben crump being called by the defense. perhaps another expert. in my sense because the defense had done fairly well i think i should just cut their losses and not bring anyone up. mark o'mara said he believed he would rest today so perhaps this will be the end of the defense case. >> if i could, i think there's two areas that we know that are still looming out there. one is george zimmerman's father who has been kept out. there's a good chance we might see him and the judge has allowed in the toxicology with the marijuana. i think that will be dropped. the defense will want to try to end this on a strong note. they lost their best chance with dr. di maio so they have to find something to end it strong and then allows that tha to be the lasting impression. >> what do you make of the fact of the text messages will not be allowed in the proceedings? does that make much of a difference? >> absolu

i think it was dr. di maio. the very impressive, distinguished doctor about this photograph the defense keeps berating? recall what i did? i said, what do you expect? blood. i'm going to show you the photographs. not just at the medical examiner's because they're s saying, oh, that dr. bao, he's incompete incompetent. he didn't know what he was doing. i'm going to show you the photographs of the scene. which show what? no blood on his hands. they'll say, oh, it was raining that night. i guess the blood on the defendant's head just stuck there, right? on the victim it just kind of vanished. can't have it both -- can't have it like that. see, because what's important is the defendant in an attempt to convince the police that he was really shooting this man, this boy, in self-defense, he had to exaggerate what happened. that's why he had to at some point say, oh- thre, he was threatening me. it was almost like the levels of fear escalated. we'll talk about that. how he was then -- originally he hit him. he got him

they got decimated by one u witness after the other particularly when it came down to dr. di maio. they're trying to set up a hypothesis and trayvon martin was trying to extracate. it's not the defense's job to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. now they are trying to show holes in the defense theory knowing there's no way the jury will believe it was george zimmerman on top. >> the only thing it seems to me with my very own trained eye is they are able to illicit isn't it possible he could have been treating. here is the irrefutable evidence he was retreating. >> maybe i think so, couldn't have. >> that's not a standard of proof in any criminal case. >> i thought i was crazy. >> you're seeing a transition. the state has gone back and said we're losing on this. we have to change that. >> your former prosecutor, did you see this coming. let's remind anybody out there who doesn't know defense attorneys don't have to give all of their stuff away to prosecutors. >> prosecutors have to give all of their stuff away to the defense attorneys. there's not like that reverse discovery proces

i think all these questions were cleared up by what i call textbook testimony today by dr. di maio. he covered everything by both medical examiners, not only the distance between the muzzle of the gun and the clothing and the body. he also talked about time of death, consciousness and pain, and touched upon all the issues involving the trauma to the head. >> you mention this and i want to play this for the viewers who may not have seen the testimony. george zimmerman said all along that trayvon martin spoke even after he was shot. is that each possible? there was testimony about that today, even if your heart has been ripped out. let's listen. >> if you pulled my heart out now i could keep talking and talking and talking? and just talking and talking without a heart? >> that's right. >> okay. 15 seconds or so? >> right. it's between 10 and 15 seconds, it's dependent on oxygen supply to the head that's why some of the s.w.a.t. people will prefer shooting somebody in the head if it's situation where the person has a gun on somebody else. >> even though my heart is gone, i would feel s

di maio, the last two photographs that were shown -- >> yes. >> do you remember the ones that were shown? >> yeah -- i'm sorry, what? >> may i approach the witness? doesn't that show that the sweatshirt is up? >> yeah, but it's been pulled up. >> right. and if it's at the scene while they're transporting the body and the body comes to it the medical examiner's office with their sweatshirt down, wouldn't that absorb the blood there? >> may i see the other photograph? >> sure. >> since it's not here, it's been removed, so it's been pulled off. if you're asking me could it have wiped the blood off as it was being pulled off, sure. >> in other words, you would expect the blood in the sweatshirt, correct? >> right. >> now, you were asked a bunch of questions by mr. west. do you agree mr. west testifying is not evidence, correct? >> yes, sir. >> okay. and would you use mr. west's statements to form your opinion? >> no, sir. i use the autopsy report and the laboratory reports. >> and the autopsy report, that was the one you mentioned prepared by dr. bao. >> and the photographs plus the firearms

dr. vincent di maio. he testified the forensic evidence is consistent with the fatal shooting. >> the wound itself by the gap, by the powder tattooing in the face of a contact of the clothing indicates that this is consistent with mr. zimmerman's account that he -- that mr. martin was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot. >> forensic pathologist dr. vincent di maio joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> nice o to see you. >> as i understand it, the words you used is consistent with. those are -- that's not that you are certain or probably. >> no. >> just that you can't -- what does it mean? consistent with? >> in this case it means confirmatory of mr. zimmerman's account of what happened. it confirms his account. >> is there any doubt in your mind, i mean, is it an expert opinion -- when you say confirms, do you say you have no doubt in your mind that it occurred as george zimmerman described it? >> that's correct, greta. >> is it -- when you made that determination, what did you look at? did you

dr. di maio, has done this whole life. came in and gave you some really good information about everything having to do with gunshots. really good because he failed and refused to go beyond gunshots even when -- i think we tried to take him a little bit. he said, no. the state tried to take him a little bit. he said no. i'm good at what i'm good at but i'm only going to talk about what i'm the good at and what he is good at is gunshot wounds and suggesting that it made perfect sense that the can in the jacket would do what it did. does it make anything less than perfect sense as to what happen happened? it's in there and he is leaning over and his loose billowing shirt falls forward and he gets shot and it's contact to the fabric. it is not pressed against the chest. i think that little play in opening statement has been dismissed. and it was four inches from his chest. as it turns out, the forensic evidence is fairly significant because it completely supports the contention that mr. zimmerman was on the bottom, trayvon mar

di maio certainly portrayed at least one alternative scenario where the defendant could have absolutely committed second-degree murder against trayvon martin just , t being mr. martin was attempting to pull back or disengage when he was shot and murdered by this defendant. moreover, to say that mr. more disputed, that the state has certainly submitted sufficient evidence and will again continue to do so in rebuttal to indicate that both the facts and theç inferences that can be drawn therefrom would support a jury verdict as to both murder and the lesser included manslaughter. >> very brief response. i would just ask that either the state or perhaps the court, if you're going to rule, identify the state's factual scenario, their theory of the case, anything for which there is -- that excludes a reasonable hypothesis of innocence of my client now that they finished their case and we finished our case. i would ask that be articulated in some form or fashion, either by the state so that you can make the ruling or by the court in your ruling that actually suggests that legally this judgme

di maio? >> let me go back to you, ken. let me ask this. -- not the prosecution, but the defense has indicate they'd may rest as early as tomorrow. in the beginning statements that we all talked about here, the prosecution said i'm going to prove a web of lies. the defense said i'm going to deal with a vicious fight that was a threat to zimmerman's life. he had to defend himself. he had no choice. if they rest tomorrow as we are seated in standing in your case tonight, has the defense proved there was a vicious fight that was a threat to zimmerman's life? >> well, interestingly, the defense doesn't have to prove anything. >> i didn't say that. >> in the opening statement, have they gone by what they said they would do in their statement? they have no burden of proof. but this is what they stated. >> that is what they stated. and you're right. that's the road map that they're laying out for the jury, that they're trying to show this vicious fight. they did say that but, remember, again, their job is to only prove reasonable

>> the jury in the george zimmerman case getting to hear the experience of dr. vincent di maio. when we are talking about the evidence in this case and the gunshot that killed trayvon martin. he is a forensic pathologist and a gunshot expert. we expect the meat of that to get under way very soon but most of the morning in front of just those in the courtroom, not the jury, the question of whether or not to allow an animation, that the defense had created, that gives george zimmerman's version of events the night of that shooting. we are still waiting for a decision from the judge on that. we will take a quick broke and be back. that does it for me. i'm chris jansing. see you tomorrow and thomas roberts is up next with more live coverage of the george zimmerman trial. credit card purchases and even your bills. for seeing your spending by category or by month. so you can set a budget and get alerts when you're running low. for keeping track of your spending to see when you're coming close to the limit you've set. for seeing how pnc virtual wallet® can help you manage your money i

. >> dr. di maio, you mentioned path olg. let's start with what is pathology, and maybe more details about those other areas. >> well, pathology is a branch of medicine concerned with the study and diagnosis of diseases. anatomical pathologists generally work in hospitals. and they examine tissue that is removed from somebody. if you had a mole removed from your skin, you had a breast biopsy or some tissue, you know, from inside your body or part of an organ removed, this is examined by a pathologist, who then tells your physician, what the disease is, if it's there, the extent of the disease, and then he tells you what the diagnosis is. pathologists are generally doctors doctors. you won't contact them because your physician has contact with them. and that's an anatomical. the clinical pathologist is concerned with the laboratory studies done on patients in a hospital. if you've had a blood test, a urine test. all of those are done in clinical pathology laboratories. the forensic pathologist is concern concerned more with th

dr. vincent di maio, a physician in forensic pathology. here are some highlights. >> what you know is the muzzle was in contact with the clothing at the time of discharge. the gun was not against the skin. it was not a half inch away. it was more than an inch. based upon the concentration of the marks and the size of the pattern, it's my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was two to four inches away from the skin. the most important point is the nature of the defect in the clothing and the powder that uw tattooing. that is, if you lean over somebody, you notice the clothing tends to fall away from the chest. if, instead, you're lying on your back and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. so the fact we know the clothing was two to four inches away is consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing the shooting and that the clothing is two to four inches away from the person firing. >> lisa bloom, this doctor testified he was paid about $2,000 for his testimony today. did the defense get th

di maio, a very distinguished doctor about this photograph the defendant keeps parading. do you recall what i did? what do you expect? blood. i will show you the photographs. not just of the medical examiner say no that dr. bao, he was incompetent. he didn't know what he was doing. i will show you the photographs at the scene that will show what? no blood on his hands. oh, it was raining that night. wow. i guess the blood on the defendant's head just stuck there, right? but on the victim, it kind of vanished? can't have it like that. what's important is the defendant in attempt to convince the police he was really shooting this man, this boy in self-defense, he had to exaggerate what happened. that's why he had to at some point say, oh, he he was threatening me, almost like the levels of fear escalated. we'll talk about that how then originally he hit him and got him on the go around and then there was a struggle, and then he got the upper hand, and then, let's see. it got worse and then he threatened to kill him and then he put his hand over his mouth suffocating him and

yesterday they put an expert on, dr. di maio, he was very effective. and the evidence very consistent with mr. zimmerman's statements, which is very important to the defense. they presented a reenactment, state of the art technology and extremely persuasive and very vivid. i don't know if the judge will let it in the trial. she may allow them to use it as a prop, as a demonstrative piece in closing argument. but that is a key ruling today. if the judge says the defense can use that enact ament as substantive evidence in the case, they are really ahead. >> what do you think of the defense's strategy to put trayvon martin on trial bringing in evidence he had marijuana in his system. bringing in text messages if they're allowed to that shows he may have been a fighter and wanted a gun. you think that works for him or make it work like their story is too weak to stand on its own? >> i think putting the victim on trial can be very effective. and defense lawyers do it all the time. remember, zimmerman's trying to say, i am defending myself. he was the aggres

. >> you weren't aware and i am showing you dr. di maio there were trees back there. there was a struggle at some point near those trees. >> my understanding what you were saying is the trees were on the ground. >> i apologize. >> i saw the pictures and i saw the vertical trees. >> that's a possibility, correct? some of the bruising. >> you could have one of the injuries from bumping against a tree. that is correct. >> and also some of the injuries that you described to the defendant, george zimmerman, could be from rolling around on the concrete and hitting the concrete as struggling and fighting. >> impact on the concrete. >> that is consistent with what you are saying, impacting the concrete. is that correct? i was curious what you mentioned about trayvon martin that you mentioned you described the injury to his left hand. what did you call it? >> abrasion. >> you were agreeing with that assessment, correct? >> he called it so i have to go with it. >> you saw the photograph, didn't you? >> yeah. i'm not sure if i did or not. >> let's assume -- i can show it to you

they have heard that from dr. di maio. a lack of evidence is generally not evidence. >> craig melvin has been following the story for us in sanford. i wonder if you could take us into the courtroom and describe the jury's reaction to what they have heard for over two hours from the prosecution. >> reporter: martin, we've been told the jury was quite engaged, as you might imagine. there was not as much note taking going on during the closing as we saw through jot the trial when certain witnesses were called, based on the eyes and ears inside the courtroom, the jurors for the most part really hanging on most of what mr. de la rionda was saying. he was stoic, by and large, for the most part, but toward the end, especially as the state's attorney became more animated there were several points when he started to look down, at times even shaking his head. we should note that the courtroom itself was perhaps the most parked it's been during any point of the trial. george skipper man's parents, trayvon martin's parents were both i

di maio had given his testimony you don't get better than that. >> that is the guy talking about the whether zimmerman was on top or bottom. >> he was spectacular. i think what happened is that we had a little bit of what happened with the state. the state ran a great case, clean case beginning, middle and clean story and it unravel at the end. i don't think the defense unraffled the way the state did. i will tell you that the state did not -- the defense did not end it with that bang that they were hoping to. they would have done that if they ended it with their expert forensic. i think that they were looking for the best way to close it on a high. i think they got a gift by the judge leaving out the animations. that would have been cross examination for the state and they would have really unravelled at the end. they can use it in closing for demonstrative purposes. i think they should have closed a little earlier and then try to put in his father at the very end to make a statement. we had heard seven other people that was george zimmerman's voice. it wasn't that fireworks that th