it says it's a crime for the president to request that the irs commissioner or anyone else at the irs not cooperate with chairman richard neal's investigation. and the law doesn't stop there. if the president has made that phone call, if the president has called up the commissioner of the irs any time in the last few months when they knew this was coming and said, don't give them my tax returns, the irs commissioner is under legal obligation to immediately report that phone call to their treasury's inspector general and if the commissioner doesn't do that, then the commissioner has himself committed a crime by not reporting the trump request. the penalty in this law for the president or anyone in the trump white house calling up the irs commissioner and telling him not to hand over the tax returns is a maximum of five years in prison. the penalty for the irs commissioner himself not reporting that someone made that request is the same thing. maximum of five years in prison. so knowing the impulse of donald trump as we do, what is the likelihood he has committed that federal crime alre

he is asking the irs to provide this, and never has the irs refused such a request. it's always been granted, even in the case of richard nixon, gerald ford, and nelson rockefeller. so it would be unprecedented not to have the irs comply with this. >> the president has reacted to this news this evening by essentially suggesting that he won't allow his tax returns to be handed over, as if he has a role that he can direct the treasury department, that he can direct the irs specifically, that they should not respond to this request. what's your response to that? >> he doesn't have the authority to do so. the tax law allows us to ask the irs for those returns. the irs is an independent committee and federal agency, and so they -- they must comply with the law. and indeed, they have in every incidents in which these returns have been asked for. so no, the president is not standing on the right ground on this. >> i might imagine if try to put myself in the president's shoes or in the shoes of his advisers and people who might be worried about what turns up in his tax retur

it's easy for the irs if they're going to comply. they could comply with this in a matter of a few days. and so april 10 is a perfectly reasonable deadline but april 10 might be the beginning of what becomes a legal fight over this. >> i think there absolutely is going to be a legal fight. they're not going to hit that deadline, and it reminds me that we're in a very different era. when nelson rockefeller was getting approved to be vice president, he sat for the congress for two days, and they went through all of his finances, including his tax returns. and he had vastly more complex holdings than donald trump has, and he was expected to sit in front of congress and answer questions about whether he was financially conflicted. and trump is just flouting that process. it's a good government issue. this isn't partisan politics or idealogies, whether or not the people running the country are or are not conflicted. >> there is no law on the side of donald trump on this one. the people we needed to talk to, thank you very much. really app

rather i would have indicated to the irs commissioner i expected the irs to comply with the law as always. and joining us now for an exclusive interview, lawrence somers, the former treasury secretary under president bill clinton and former director of the national economic counsel under obama. he is an economics professor at harnd university. thank you for joining us tonight. have you taught me something once again. i'm used to taking notes when you speak. but i did not know that the delegation from the treasury secretary to the irs commissioner on matters of tax issues like this was actually in writing and that it's a formal delegation and there's a formal process for revoking that delegation. >> that's right. you know, it's the first one of the first things my general counsel told me when i became treasury secretary was any individual tax matter affecting any individual taxpayer you are under no circumstances going to be anywhere near. and that applies to a request of this kind and for good reason. it's the essence of the integrity of the tax system that politically appointed officials

the first audit by the irs of president nixon's returns, actually, the irs gave president nixon a complete, clean bill of tax health as a result of that audit, and even sent president nixon a letter complimenting him on the care with which he had prepared those returns, but on later audits of the same returns, one by the nonpartisan staff of the joint committee on taxation and one by the irs again, we discovered that, in fact, president nixon owed almost a half a million dollars of additional tax and interest, so there's an inherent conflict of interest when the irs is asked to audit, essentially its boss, and it's absolutely the responsibility of congress and the ways and means committee to exercise its oversight responsibility to double check that those audit -- that audit is being done appropriately or whether there's any funny business going on. so i think that the chair minnesota man is very smart in laying out that rationale as well as others for this request. >> let's listen to richie neal. the audience will finally get to hear his voice. they don't hear this very much. he did make

i'm going to tell the irs not to release it? >> that's committing a crime. >> this will end up probably in the courts and may even go up to the supreme court before a guy named brett kavanaugh and his comrades there. there is no way he will let this happen. he will order steve mnuchin if he has to say no. and they will take this cocourt. bill barr has shown -- >> our country will be determined by roberts and and hish and maybe gorsuch. administration have to follow a very clear law or not, that's going to end up being a tremendous fight. there may be others coming down the pike too here. >> new reporting suggests that the president may have already taken steps to shield himself as joy just suggested. "the new york times" revealed earlier this year trump asked senator mcconnell, the republican leader in the senate to prioritize a confirmation vote to be the chief counsel of the irs. chief counsel of the irs. think about that why he cared so much about it. most curious was the urgency of trump's ask. -- request. trump indicated it

>> i think that we september it to the irs. the irs has to stand up tall. if the irs has anyone interfere with what they're going to do, then we'll have another problem. this is not over by any stretch of the imagination. i said from the beginning, let's put it all on the table. we can common trait president very easily. what is he hiding? that's the major question. what is he hiding? for the republicans to say that this is rummaging in privacy, they have a very short history. they went after 51 people, if you remember, when they were going after miss lerner, when she was the head of the irs. >> do i remember that. and they used this very law. see, look. we're all equal. that means something. so you'd better pay your fair share. and you'd better pay your fair share. i want to know if the president does. >> do you refer to yourself in the third person, but without, you earned that title. i would think you would address yourself as congressman. >> you don't know me very well then. >> i know you a little. this very topic. it is very interesting to see what is

that is good news. >> can i ask you about the irs? you're behind a bipartisan bill that is scheduled -- i think has it been voted on making structural reforms to the irs. you can tell me a little bit about what the reforms are? >> this bipartisan effort began more than three years ago to basically redesign the irs, first strufrkt alctural reformse than two decades. it passed the house twice last year, nearly unanimously. and now john lewis is leading it, mike kelly is our top republican. but what it does, first redesigns the irs, focuses them on taxpayer service, reins in the abuses, requires they protect our identity and personal information better, requires them to reallybly back a new restructuring of that agency to congress next year. and so it has very strong bipartisan support. and i think is welcome by the american public that we're working together. >> i want to go back to the question of the president's tax returns. chairman neal says there is a legitimate legislative purpose because congress and the committee that you were t

>> we have very serious questions as to whether or not the irs is properly enforcing the tax law. and of course those questions are made a little more relevant when we see the president's lawyer writing to the commissioner of the irs essentially threatening them or ordering them to take certain actions relative to this request. who's in charge here? >> so the irs commissioner -- charles redding had written a piece in forbes before the election basically arguing the case for donald trump not to disclose his taxes. what's your thought on that? >> well, then i would suppose the commissioner has a bias, which maybe he ought to set aside and actually just look at the law. i mean, he can have his opinions as to whether the president should voluntarily release his returns, but he can't have an opinion as to whether or not this law, which was passed in 1921 following the teapot dome skan scandal, that gives this extraordinary to the chairman, he doesn't have an opinion relative to this day and to this particular taxpayer the law governs. the law is the law, and he should follow the law. >

rather, i would have indicated to the irs commissioner that i expected the irs to comply with the law as always." joining us now, very pleased to say is lawrence summers, he's the former treasury secretary under president clinton. he's former director of the national economic counsel under president obama. he currently serves as economics professor at harvard university. he also authored this opinion piece in the "washington post" making the case the current treasury secretary shouldn't stop the irs commissioner from releasing president trump's tax returns. secretary summers, thank you for joining us. it's an honor to have you here tonight. >> good to be with you, rachel. >> one of the things i found striking in your op-ped, it's very unequivocal that this is black letter law, that the irs commissioner does not have leeway to ignore this request and the treasury secretary does not have leeway to direct his irs commissioner that he should ignore this request. are you staking out a claim for the purposes of argument or are you stating something that's essentially consensus among everybo

treasury wields a lot of power over the irs. the irs is within treasury, so it really remains to be seen. but, you know, it's a credit to the bureaucracy this hasn't leaked yet. these people are hardworking. they're dedicated civil servants. they're really honorable people. so they believe in the tax laws here. but we'll have to see about this giant court fight that's going to happen. >> well, there's a ridiculous assertion here, david to me at least, facially ridiculous. the letters trump's lawyers say, our firm welcomes the opportunity to represent president trump in his position a taxpay taxpayer. he's the president of the united states. he doesn't get to get out of that. >> well, they're desperately trying to find some way to get around the crystal clear language we've had since 1924, shall. and it's not just tax returns. it's related tax information, shall be provided. listen, anti-corruption law, and one of the things i hope we do in our discussions going forward, chris, is let's call the irs what they are. they're the tax

it's a practice of the irs. in order foritous make a judgment as to whether or not the law is adequate to protect the interest of the american people when it comes to a president being held responsible to adhere to the tax code of the country, we have to take a look at this. >> on the ways and means committee, thank you for joining me. >> dnc chairman tom perez will >> in a perfect illustration of how deadlocked parliament has become, this afternoon, this result. >> the ayes to the right, 310. the nos to the left, 310. >> what does that mean? i don't know, but there is more brexit madness as the count rye continues to slowly, painfully and lewd krusly commit economic suicide. parliament remains paralyzed as the deadline approaches and panic is setting in. back in 2016, the surprise victory of the brexit referendum was a hashinger of the trump victory. brexit and trumply victory have been linked as we watch these two democracies destroying their own institutions by empowering their most xenophobic forces and how

president, it went to the irs for your tax returns. also today, all 24 democrats in the house judiciary committee authorized the subpoena for the entire 400-page report of special counsel robert mueller. no redactions. chairman nadler says he will negotiate with the attorney general, william barr, but he insists he sees the full report without any compromises. >> are you willing to negotiate any middle ground in terms of redactions -- >> no. >> -- of the mueller -- you're not? >> no. the committee must see everything. >> according to the washington post, some democrats are more aggressive still, even more than nadler, calling for a showdown immediately. quote, many do not share nadler's patience and want the chairman to serve barr with a summons for the report right away. well, today's vote by judiciary democrats comes a day after attorney general barr missed the committee's deadline to deliver the full report. instead, barr has promised to release a partially redacted version to the public while congress is in recess later this month.

the irs is within treasury. it remains to be seen, but it's a credit to the bureaucracy that this has not leaked yet. they are hardworking and dedicated civil servants and honorable people. they believe in the tax laws, but we have to see about this giant court fight. >> there is a ridiculous assertion here that the letter that trump's now lawyers, our firm welcomes the opportunity to represent president trump in his capacity as a taxpayer. it's like he's a private citizen. it's not like a meta physical question. he's the question of the united states. he doesn't goat get to get out that. >> they are trying to find their way around the language we had since 1924. shall. it's not just tax returns, but tax information. it shall be provided. anti-corruption law. let's call the irs what they are. the tax police. donald trump is proposing to go against the tax police. >> he is also proposing in a bizarre way to intercede -- one part of the government asked another part of the government for this information they are

sent the letter to the irs. the irs under the treasury department part of the trump administration. who is making the call on whether the irs is going to comply with this and what's the call going to be, do we have a sense? >> we know this, taxes have loomed large for the president for a long time. while he was a decade he broke with decades of tradition and did not release his returns. he's made no move toward doing so when he took office. claiming time and time again he's under audit, though he has produced no evidence. michael cohen when he testified before the house suggested when he worked for the president he never saw them either. he went on to believe to say i don't believe they are under audit. the video clap you guys just played is very telling, the president said they'll have to talk to the attorney general which is how it shows how he believes the attorney general works for him. his personal lawyer rather than the lawyer for the united states of america. the white house, people i've talked to in the last day or so, they're still trying to figure out strategy and what the

there is an irs procedure that says the president gets audited man de tore illy. it's an irs rule. part of what the chairman is doing is trying to assess whether the irs is complying with that. for years before that before he was president, the president and his lawyers have said he's under audit. we don't know for sure. one of the things the chairman's letter asks for is for the past six years, whether in fact there was an audit and asked for all the paperwork of that audit. there's nothing that prevents -- the audit is irrelevant to whether the president will turn this over zbluf it's irrelevant but it's a perfect excuse in the court of public opinion. >> until the public understands that it's not actually an excuse, right? >> this is the court of public opinion and what stands up in a court are two different things, he's made this point about an audit, and if you were his tax lawyer you wouldn't want all of his information out there while you were negotiating with the irs he's not any typical client. this is beyond whether -- what audited existed and whether that's -- this is mo

so they've made the request of the irs using this section of the u.s. code. and how can the treasury secretary, steve mnuchin, how can he slow walk that? >> reporter: there are all sorts of procedural things he could do to slow up that process. but democrats on that committee have said, if they don't get a satisfactory answer from the irs by this time next week, that's the timeline that they've been giving me, then they're going to issue subpoenas and fight this in the courts, katy. but the question really is -- and as you well know, donald trump has dispensed with almost 50 years of precedent, both as a candidate and as a president in not releasing his tax returns. and so you have democrats and republicans to include lindsey graham, who make the case that the american people deserve to know if this president or any president's public decision making is influenced by his or her -- but in this case, his private interests. so did the president benefit from that huge gop tax cut? we don't know. we know that michael cohen says that donald trump has inflated his o

there is a new attorney general and a new treasury secretary and a new commissioner of the irs. no one to protect donald trump in those jobs. president trump's first day as a former president could be the worst day of his life. that's next. ♪ goin' down the only road i've ever known ♪ ♪ like a drifter i was-- ♪ born to walk alone! keep goin' man! you got it! if you ride, you get it. ♪ here i go again geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more. ♪ ♪ applebee's bigger, bolder grill combos. now that's eatin good in the neighborhood. when cravings hit, hit back. choose glucerna, with slow release carbs to help manage blood sugar, and start making everyday progress. glucerna. >>> on the day president bill clinton was inaugerated, some of his cabinet members were sworn in on that same day. they already had full senate conference hearings so they voted in a new secretary of the state, new secretary of treasury. that's how fast transition of power can happen. just think what's going to happen if we get a new administration, a new cabinet on or shortly after the

it's a practice of the irs. in order foritous make a judgment as to whether or not the law is adequate to protect the interest of the american people when it comes to a president being held responsible to adhere to the tax code of the country, we have to take a look at this. >> on the ways and means committee, thank you for joining me. >> dnc chairman tom perez will join me on set. he is the mogul behind the rise of donald trump and the new york times magazine reporting on rupert murdoch, next. reporting rupert murdoch, next when we'll . saving you time for what you love most. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ so let's promote our spring ftravel deals, on choicehotels.com like this: (sneezes) earn one free night when you stay just twice this spring. allergies. or.. badda book. badda boom. book now at choicehotels.com. at to cover the essentialsyou have in retirement, as well as all the things you want to do. because when you're ready for what comes next, the only direction is f

there is a new attorney general and a new treasury secretary and a new commissioner of the irs. no one to protect donald trump in those jobs. president trump's first day as a former president could be the worst day of his life. that's next. life. that's next. or crohn's symptoms... are holding you back... and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough... it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn's. entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio®. if your uc or crohn's treatment isn't working for you, ask your gastr

here is what charles redick had to say, trump's irs tax commissioner. he said this. with any experience tax lawyer representing trump in an irs audit advise him to publicly release his tax returns during an audit, absolutely not, ali. >> so, he's lying. he's probably not under audit. >> why do you say that? >> michael cohen said as far as he knows donald trump's taxes are not under audit. >> it's the longest audit in the history of kristen dom if he's still under audit. a >> b, he's lying more because he's not under audit for the taxes he filed while president. c, if you're listening to what the irs guy is saying, he's talking about in the thee thorel sense. d, this is an important point. nobody is asking trump to release his taxes. nobody cares what trump thinks about his taxes. nobody is asking him to release them publicly. we are simply asking to follow the law and to provide the -- the government is asking the government to look at information that the government has already collected. >> i want to play what michael cohen said in testimony that ellie referred to

any way that you can see of complying with that law tomorrow other than handing over -- having the irs commissioner hand over donald trump's tax returns? >> lawrence, thanks again. pleasure to be with you again. i completely agree with you. the law is really very straightforward and i'm very happy to hear that secretary mnuchin is planning to comply with the law because the law directs him to furnish the information that -- that chairman neal requested. so that's what i anticipate happening tomorrow. >> let's listen to what former treasury secretary larry summers said on this program last night about this. >> it's the essence of the integrity of the tax system that politically appointed officials not be involved in these matters, and that's why there is a delegation to the head of the irs, and it wouldn't have ever occurred to me and wouldn't have occurred to the treasury secretaries who i served under or the treasury secretary i served with to become involved in an individual taxpayer matter. >> and, george, what i learned from the former secretary last night about that is that the de

the irs and treasury add jujust tax with holding table. many americans are discovering they owe money or their refund was smaller than they were expecting. nbc technology reporter jake ward takes a look at what you can do if you find yourself owing the government money. >> isadora, a married mom of two said when she saw the figure $8,000, it was the amount of her tax refund but she was mistaken. >> i went that's a lot of money. we'll be able to do the basement. i realized it was the wrong color. it's usually in black when you get a refund. this was in red. i realized that meant we owed 8,000 there are. i was shocked. >> reporter: she is not alone. according to the company nerdwallet, some eight million taxpayers who got tax refunds last year will owe the government this year thanks to changing in the tax code. >> most americans look forward to a refund. for some low income, moderate taxpayers it's the biggest single transaction they will have in the could you rephrase the year. if they don't get that, that's a big financial hit. >> reporte

speaking directly to the irs commissioner. he's doing it through television but he knows he's speaking to the irs commissioner when he says that. he knows he's speaking to the treasury secretary when he says that even though he's saying it on television. so this could be one of those instances where mulvaney had absolutely no idea i think from my suspicion is from your reporting tonight, we won't be hearing him say those words again. >> well, if he does, it's incredibly reckless, lawrence. and we need to keep in mind that what we're seeing going on with this administration is obstruction of justice right in front of our eyes. they're doing it out in the open thinking that that may in some way insulate them. it does not. there's no requirement that you operate in secret when you're trying to defeat the laws of the united states. >> david kay johnston, really important reporting tonight in the daily beast. everyone should grab it right now, read it right now. thank you very much for joining us. appreciate it. when we come back,

. >> of the irs not to disclose to the house ways and means committee your taxes? >> >> they'll speak to my lawyer and to the attorney general. >> oh, i don't know. that's up to whoever hand handles it. hey, i'm under audit. but that's up to whoever it is. from what i understand, the law has been 100% on my side. they elected me. i keep going. i am under audit. when you are under audit, you don't do it. other people are under audit and nobody would do it when you're going through an audit. i always go through audits, they audit me all the time. trump has been using that audit claim ever since the campaign when he became the first party nominee in decades to refused to voluntarily release his tax returns. his lawyers also weighed in on a letter to the treasury department, they asked that trump returns not be released. writing this about house democrats. the president is their political opponent, they want to use the information to damage him politically. they add the irs should reframe from divulging the request until it receives a formal legal opinion from the just

if you're in the middle of negotiations between your lawyers and the irs over who knows what subjects, you can see why he wouldn't necessarily want them out there in the middle of that process. but as far as the law or -- there's no reason why -- that he's prevented from releasing them because of an audit. >> for fact's sake, there's no law that prevents the president from releasing his taxes. if they're under audit. we don't know if they're under audit. >> he settled it right there. there you have it, there is nothing preventing the president or the irs from releasing president trump's taxes. get your glasses on, get your pencils ready, we're going to i get the same refund they were used to and more on their paycheck. some americans are in for a rude awakeni awakening. we're going to have the story of one woman's tax surprise and how you can be ready for filing day. you're watching "velshi & ruhle" live on msnbc. yes. it's way day! it's wayfair's biggest sale of the year, and you're invited! starting april 10, score our lowest prices since black friday on best-selling furniture, deco

so we expect the irs to comply with this request. i'll be clear, we will use every tool available to us to ensure that the irs does comply with this law. >> and i understand -- what does that mean? does that mean you're prepared to go to the supreme court? "the washington post" is reporting, you believe the irs should comply. the president told his advisers he doesn't want this to happen and he would fight this issue all the way to the supreme court. are you prepared for this to go to the supreme court? >> that's his prerogative, and that will be his choice. but i don't think that the chairman of the ways and means committee, richie neil who i know and have great admiration for him is going to condition whether he does his job and up holes his oath on whether or not donald trump feels like it on any particular day. we're going to do what we or charged with doing. this is an important question. not only is it important that the american public have faith that the president's personal financial interests don't somehow interfere with hi

the6103, the congress can request an audit information from the irs. not requesting it from the president. it is not if the president has to turn it over, but the irs and steve mnuchin. this is setting up a conflict and if steve mnuchin is a certify ve servant of the people or of the president. >> danny, this is the only president since richard nixon who has not released his returns. they are willing to die on. that is a direct quote. what does this tell you? >> you remember president nixon said the people need to know if their president is a crook. well, i'm not a crook. but he ended up owing half a million when he was eventually audited. it is an interesting tradition. it is not required. the president is simply not going to do it. he is really likely relying on advice from tax attorneys telling him don't release your tax returns. it could result in personal consequences. the law doesn't require him to not release his returns under audit. he can if he chooses to, but he isn't going to because it would be devastating to his personal income and persona

in any legal fight, they'll face trump allies in key positions at the irs. "the new york times" reporting with a trump lawyer at the irs. has ties to the trump organization. not putting him in place was a key priority for the president. the probe into trump's finances extending beyond his taxes. his accounting firm will give ten years of trump documents to congress once they do get a subpoena. and the capital one bank saying they'll hand over trump documents as well. this is all veering into territory that trump once said was a red line for him. >> mueller was looking at your finances and your family finances, would that be a red line? >> i would say yeah. i would say yes. >> joining me now, the executive editor of above the law. the vice chair of the new york state democratic party and former new york counsel speaker, and howard fineman, an msnbc news analyst. howard, i'll start with you. trump starting the week out saying he was exonerated from the mueller probe altogether because of the bill barr letter, four pages which turned out to summarize 300 plus p

we going to try to find out how the irs is doing in their audit. nobody asked that question about barack obama or george w. bush. they should have just said look, we want to understand any entanglements or conflicts of interest.t this law as i understand the history came into effect in the 20s when the congress was concerned about tea pot dome and the actions of the executive. i think they have a right to ask for this information. it has to be protect and kept private. that's why they say only the chairman can ask for the information. >> that's interesting. you think the protective layer here and the concerns about it being leaked or public is that writing into law, the chairman can ask and is the one given and not congress in general? >> that's exactly right. the president is right here. he is under no obligation to make his returns public. i believe he should make them public as a matter of seeking o holding the office. until he is compelled through a different statute to make it public, he doesn't have to do that. >> mark everson who was a tax c

the irs is the one getting an extension. talking of course about the legal battle over president trump's tax returns. a few hours ago the house ways an means committee gave the irs a final deadline of april 23g to provide trump's personal and business tax documents, and this is days after steve mnuchin said his department would miss the initial deadline. for trump's part, he's preparing for this long war by using the a-word as a shield. >> i'm under audit. but that's up to whoever it is. from what i understand, the law is 100% on my side. >> while i'm under audit, i won't do it. if i'm not under audit i would do it. i have no problem with it. but while i'm under audit i would not give me taxes. there is no law whatsoever. >> so that is not true. under the u.s. tax code trump's treasury secretary must comply with congress's request. kelly o'donnell is at the white house and is following this story. kelly, what will lawmakers do if the secretary blows past this deadline which many feels as if he will? >> reporter: well it is m

people have argued for years that the irs could make it easier. here's the really creepy part. there's a bill that just passed the house ways and means committee that's going to make it illegal for the irs to do what it didn't plan, which is to make a cheap, free, tax preparation software package -- >> why would they make that illegal? >> well, there's about $6.6 million in lobbying money being spent who are in the business of helping you with our taxes. our subject there has a $3,000 difference in the refund depending whether you go to the software or the preparer, none of that should be necessary. we should be able to do this ourselves. >> i need jake to say that one more time. they just made it illegal -- >> there's a bill. there's a bipartisan bill -- >> that they want to make it illegal for the government to provide a program to help you file your taxes for free. >> because it would compete with the ones that you pay for. the taxpayer first act is something you should look at and see whether your congressperson is supporting this. they're trying to make it harder -- >> it

the law says that the irs shall furnish those returns on request. you quoted the lawyers argument before. in theory, donald trump is not a party to this case. this is between the congress and the internal revenue service and the treasury secretary as the supervising cabinet officer over the internal revenue service. it seems inevitable that the president -- off yes, sirly the president is embarrassed by something in his tax returns, this has been a controversy for years, he's consistently refused to show them. the audit does not prevent him, we all know from releasing his tax returns, other presidents have provided their tax returns while under audit. he wants to keep these secret. now the democrats have the power in the house, the law seems to give them the clear right to request them. the lawyer for the president is trying to inject himself into this process with the legal argument, and as james clyburn suggested, this is likely to end up in the courts if they don't relent. and then the question is, if it gets all the way up to the supreme court,

because richard neal, the chairman, sent the letter to the irs and the department of justice may try to protect the institution of the presidency, it will likely be up to federal courts to decide what gets released, if anything. >> that's the law. okay. i think the law makes it clear. it goes to the court. we have a 5-4 republican court. we'll see. the politics of it. do they think they're solid because their 40%-ish of the voters don't give a damn about the tax returns if he holds them or hides them? robert? >> they believe they were able to win in 2016 without the president releasing his tax returns and they still believe his core voters will be with him regardless of what's in those returns. there is sensitivity in the trump circle about his brand politically. they want to be seen as the billionaire working man's candidate. that's the pitch they give us behind the scenes when they're talking to reporters about how they want to cast him for 2020. so the tax returns could complicate that should he have different tax arrangements. at this point, not having the returns out there makes

just three days ahead of the deadline set by the ways and means committee for the irs to release six years of the president's personal and business tax returns. today the white house chief of staff says, no way. >> democrats will never see the president's tax returns. >> oh, no. never. nor should they. keep in mind, that's an issue that was already litigated during the election. voters knew the president could have given his tax returns. they knew he didn't, and they elected him anyway. which, of course, is what drives the democrats crazy. >> democratic congressman dan kildee is insisting the law allows his committee to request any tax information it desires. >> we are looking very carefully right now as to whether or not the irs is properly auditing and enforcing tax law on the president of the united states, and we're considering legislative changes toward that end. it is not up to president trump. it is not up to some lawyer that president trump hires to determine whether or not this coequal branch of government has the tools available to it to make the deliberations necessary in