and the prospect of stalemate in libya. tell me again why anyone wants to be president? we'll ask that question tootonight on "washington week." a glimmer of good news for the economy. >> the unemployment rate has now fallen a full point in the last four months. the last time that happened was during the recovery in 1984, where we saw such a significant drop in the unemployment rate. gwen: but no sign of budget movement on capitol hill. >> april fools' america. this is joke, america. our constituents did not send us to washington to shut down the government. they sent us here to make it more accountable. it's time to pick a fight. gwen: while, on libya, the president and members of congress struggle to define the end game. >> in my view, the removal of colonel gadhafi will likely be achieved over time through political and economic measures and by his own people. >> the united states must remain strongly engaged to force gaddafi to leave power. nothing less is desirable or sustainable. gwen: no wonder the 2012 campaign is off to such an uncertain start. who's really runn

the big difference is in libya, colonel gaddafi had no friends. the rest of the world felt it could intervene. the french and british wanted to come in syria, harder to do that but let's watch this picture six months from now. after all else has failed, this may look an awful lot like libya and the administration having gotten a little bit pregnant having said we want al-assad to step down, they may have to make that choice. gwen: thank you, everyone. that's it for here for now but the conversation continues online and the "washington week" webcast extra where we'll try to make sense of president obama's buffett rule. before we go we want to send our condolences to fox news sunday's chris wallace on the loss of his father mike, a man who truly changed journalism. see you next week on "washington week." good night. >> funding for "washington week" is provided by -- >> one line helps communities turn plans into reality. helps shippers forge a path to prosperity. helps workers get back to work. one line is an engine for the economy and the future. no

. >> does anybody link this to libya? >> absolutely. this is one of the reasons why it's not -- the president really can't -- you know, one -- any one government can't really do anything to change this. the high gas prices are linked to market uncertainty due to libya. it's true. and it's a global market. and there are so many things in supply, in demand, in market uncertainty and speculation that affect these prices. there's no one thing that one government can do. so -- >> but if the republicans are trying to seize on this as an issue politically, put aside whether there's any practical solution, what doings the president do to counter that politically? >> so this is such a tough issue for democrats. here's what the president is trying to do. the republicans have a nice clean, easy message. drill. what the president is trying to do is claim some of that drilling message for himself. we've seen over the past couple of weeks the -- gwen: the moratorium is lifted. >> the moratorium is lifted and they've been issuing new permits to drill

you see it in yemen and so some extent in libya with the shadow wars going on there. certainly in pakistan. it is a move away from the bush administration where you saw large combat farces -- forces, big, messy battles. i think the obama administration has tried to bile -- dial it back and to see what can be done, you know, nor the shadows. gwen: and as we saw in syria today, more diplomatic prer be. thank you, mark. gwen: as the u.s. role in the world shifts from overt militarily to discreet diplomatically to covert, relying more and more on intelligence, one has only to look to the detention center at guantanamo to gauge the fallout. new documents released this week to npr and other news organizations showed how complicated it has become to take, hold, and classify detainees, or as they used to be called, prisoners of war. there is no longer anything conventional about any of this, is there, tom? >> that's right, gwen. these guantanamo detainees are prisoners of the war on terror, which is a very unconventional war, you're absolutely right. these guys constitute to

officials continue to believe he is in libya. right now the best guess is that he's either somewhere in tripoli or in cert, his hometown, one of the remaining gaddafi strongholds. he's an important part of this. even if the rebels are able to take control. as long as he's out, he remains a rallying point for those forces who continue to fight in parts of the country. remember, the rebels still don't have full control of the country, and there are key areas where the fighting continues. as long as he's able to go out and make ominous messages, sends out ominous messages to his supporters, he remains a threat to this very fragile period in libya. gwen: to, doyle, the u.s. policymakers are watching this and they don't know whether to celebrate or pull back. war they thinking? >> well, they've had to react, as you said, very carefully for all of the reasons that nancy mentioned. the only sort of high-profile statement was the one you showed of president obama back on monday at martha's vineyard, seven minutes in front of a camera. th

. >> [chanting] the result -- violence in bahrain, yemen and libya and iran. we talk about turning points here and abroad with jeanne cummings of "politico," john dickerson of "slate magazine" and cbs news, doyle mcmanus of the "los angeles times," and jim sciutto of abc news. >> award-winning reporting and analysis. covering history as it happens. live from our nations capitol, this is "washington week with gwen ifill," produced in association with "national journal. corporate funding for washington week is provided by -- >> this rock has never stood still. since 1875 we have been there for our clients through good times and bad. when their needs changed, we were there to meet them. through the years from insurance to investment management, from real estate to retirement solutions, we develop new ideas for the financial challenges ahead. this rock has never stood still. and that's one thing that will never change. prudential. >> corporate funding is also provided by boeing, norfolk southern. additional funding is provided by the annenberg foundation, the corp

could this be something like libya? gwen: it does begin to sound familiar like we've been here before. >> it does. there was a similar meeting a year ago about plib -- libya. without the united nations vote i think it becomes dufment what we're seeing is the consideration of arming the rebels as one effort to get in but in terms of military intervention those also are bad options. the naval blockade would be off because russia has a port in syria. an air strike would be difficult because how do you strike a sovereign nation without that mandate. militarily, the lack of a u.n. vote sort of limits the united states having to intervene fully. could the united states be dragged in in terms of humanitarian and weapons support and find itself supporting groups it doesn't know about because of the international pressure? sure, and that presents its own complexity. gwen: another hot spot that presents difficulties for the united states is in afghanistan where this week's violent outbreak of protests came in apparent retaliation

plan a, is to live and died in libya. plan b is to live and die in libya. plan c is to live and die in libya. gwen: the state department suspended operations in tripoli today and the white house announced new sanctions against the libyan government. >> it's clear that colonel gaddafi has lost the confidence of his people. he is overseing the brutal treatment of his people, the -- the fatal violence against his own people and his legit massy has -- legit massy has been reduced to zero. gwen: ben reduced to zero. that's fairly strong language coming from an administration which has been sixes and sixes and sevens over the last upheavals in the last couple of weeks. >> but if you look at all these upheaval, libya is so terrifying because muammar qaddafi is firing on his people with heavy weapon. this is opening fire with huge military weapons, sending fighter jets up, sending helicopter jets up. and the reports out of there -- we don't really faux what's going on in libya. we especially don't know what's going on in tripoli. but the reports you are getting fro

involvement in libya, u.s. leadership of nato, and the military budget. >> here i would leave you with a word of caution. we must not repeat the mistakes of the past. where budget targets were met mostly by taking a percentage off of the top of everything. gwen: so what is the imprint, the impression that gates is trying to leave? >> what he's saying is even though there's a lot of talk about bunlt pressures and the -- budget pressures and the need to make cuts and even though osama bin laden is dead and drawing down in afghanistan, he's saying don't attack the defense budget. don't look at it as a place where you can make easy cuts and look for quick ways to cut the defense budget. so he -- he's cautioning against what's happened in the past. if you look at the defense budget in real dollars, it's generally looked like an e.k.g. line where it goes violently up during war and then drops precipitously afterward. and yet since 9-11, it's been steadily rising and we're now at record levels, defense spending. and d

for more on libya, politics and the debt ceiling dance, oh, yes, you thought we forgot about that. for daily developments on these sthorse and more all week, tune in to the pbs newshour on air and "washington week" online. you can find us all at pbs.org. hope you have a lovely summer weerkend. -- summer weekend. good night. every thursday get a previe of our topics and panel with our "washington week" email alert. available at washingtonweekonline@pbs.org. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- "washington week" was produced by weta which is solely responsible for its content. funding for "washington week" is provided by -- >> we know why we're here. >> to connect our forces to what they need when they need it. >> to help troops see danger. before it sees them. >> to answer the call of the brave and bring them safely home. >> around the globe, the people of boeing are working together. to support and protect all who serve. >> that's why we're here. >> corporate funding is also provided by prudential financial. additional funding for "washington week" is p

in libya, where muammar qaddafi clings to power. in wisconsin where a collective bargaining confrontation finally comes to a head. everything lands on the president's plate. >> we can't keep on running the government based on two-week extensions. that's irresponsible. gwen: plus, we remember the wisdom of david broder. >> if you're willing to try to lead that government or achieve the leadership position in that government, you have to try to build some trust for yourself. gwen: covering the week, san balls and karen tumulty of "the washington post," and doyle mcmahon us in of "the l.a. times." >> live from our nation's capital, this is "washington week" with gwen ifill. produced in association with "national journal." corporate funding for "washington week" is provided by -- >> we know why we're here. to connect our forces to what they need when they need it. >> to help treat sea danger before it sees them. >> to answer the call of the brave and bring them safely home. >> around the globe, the people of boeing or working together t

libya, europe could be in debt situation and now this. i think this generalized anxiety could be a real problem for the world economy. it could exceed some shortage of this or that plan. >> i've got a question for both of you. do we know yet how bad the disaster will be and how bad the economic consequences of those disasters scenarios are? i was wondering, for example, if there is a worst case scenario in the area around the nuclear power plant becomes uninhabitable, how important is that and what would that do to the japanese economy and what's the chances of that happening? >> officials are very reluctant certainly to say how exactly this might unfold. clearly, we're seeing soldiers and the japanese working -- the workers working as hard as they can on the ground to prevent the absolute worst case scenario. the worst case scenario probably wouldn't be as bad as a chernobyl in part because this plant is constructed much better. the damage isn't as bad. but it does seem that we could certainly -- we could see a large number of deaths and

gwen: the libya dilemma. we look at the military, diplomatic, and political complications of what no one wants to call a war. tonight on "washington week." >> no american lives can resolve the political disagreement that lies at the heart of somebody else's civil war. gwen: that was candidate obama in 2007. >> because of the extraordinary capabilities and valor of our men and women in uniform, we have already saved lives. gwen: that was president obama this week as bombs were falling in libya. but the definition of victory remains unclear. >> i think there are any number of possible outcomes here and no one's in a position to predict them. we didn't set out to do regime change here. we set out, as i said, to do a very targeted mission. gwen: and now nato steps in. >> we have taken on responsibility for the no-fly zone, while the coalition continues its activities. gwen: but does gaddafi stay or does he go? will congress go along with the plan? and what dominoes are set to fall next? covering the story this we

gwen: libya, government shutdown showdown and the supreme court. with all of these big stories say about the test of democracy. tonight on "washington week." >> the violence must stop. muammar qaddafi has lost the legitimacy to lead and he must leave. gwen: but what can the u.s. do to make it happen? sanctions, navy ships, no-fly zone, all being debated but the bloodshed continues. at home there's no blood but it's a standoff all the same. >> the best way to govern is quit spending more money than we take in. >> we need to cut spending. >> we also believe those cuts must be smart and targeted. gwen: congress gets a two-week reprieve to approve a budget but the underlying fight is far from over. and at the supreme court, a near-unanimous vote that flies in the face of public opinion. >> my first thought was eight justices don't have the common sense god gave a goat. gwen: testing the limits of free speech. covering the week, james kitfield of national journal, john harwood of cnbc and "the new york times," and joan biskupic of "usa today." >> award-

this whole arab spring idea, i know you've just gotten back from spending a lot of time in libya, nancy, is it stalled? we saw today that george mitchell is leaving after two years. does it feel like we're stuck? >> i think in egypt and tunisia , what we saw is the protesters got rid of the dictator but not the addict atorship. and the truth is it takes a long time to do the kinds of reforms to have a real revolution, if um. so far it's been a revolt, not a revolution. in my time in egypt it was astounding how much had changed and how difficult they were finding it to make real reforms. they made more aeau -- amendments to the already overamended constitution in an effort by mubarak to keep his sop in power. and then if gaddafi goes -- >> that's a big if and it's not a strategically vital place to the united states. but when you look back at january and february i think there was a how much amount of enthusiasm. a tremendous amount was about to change. that's not usually the way revolutions go. i ran into henry kissinger today, the grand sage of american foreign policy. he was making th

seen more recently -- the bin laden operation came down to instinct, i think, and, you know, maybe libya, too, to a large degree. and i think what i hear from folks who are around the president is that he's much more -- he relies more on his instincts now, and that seems like a significant change. gwen: george h.w. bush. i want to talk about the unfinished business part of his presidency. because in not getting saddam hussein, that kind of governed a lot what happened afterwards. >> when he liberates kuwait and six other nations helping him pay for it in 1991, he and his team make a very clear decision not to go past -- tossing his own army out of kuwait but not chase him all the way to baghdad. a very small resistance inside his administration. but among the group that was deciding, not even a close call. >> including dick cheney. >> exactly. but, of course, saddam doesn't go away. and i think the important incident, i think, may be not something that happened during george w. bush's presidency, but something that happened during bill clinton, which was not long after clinton comes into

libya and the nato assault in libya was a big part. but if you ask the white house, what do you most want to get out of the trip? the answer that i kept getting was, you know, this is an arab-israeli trip. the reason why is a little bit complicated. the vote for palestinian statehood that's coming up in the united nations in september. and president obama was trying to get european countries -- the u.s. will vote no, of course, but president obama is trying to get european countries to also agree not to vote for it because the israelis are terribly, terribly worried that they'll lose a lot of the european countries on that one. gwen: was that overshadowed by what appeared to be a dust-up between the prime minister and the president? >> when president obama, as you know, made his announcement last week, pledging that he thought that an arab-israeli peace plan should be based on israel's 1967 borders with mutually agreed land swaps. a white house official i was sitting with earlier this week told me in the view of the white house, this w

then today he came out and said the taliban is in libya. he said he doesn't need to know this stuff because it's the president's job to lead not read. >> that i think, is taking a very significant toll on herman cain the fascinating figure in the republican party nominating process. inge saturday's debate, and we worked hard on structuring the questions for all the candidates to avoid the temptation to recite their answers but to actually think about their answers. i'm not going to character rise what i thought cain did or didn't do. but as he almost always did, my advicors will tell me or i'll seek the best people. uconn vay to people that you don't have a world view. and that is usually, and customarily and appropriately so a basic qualification for someone to lead the people of this country. >> what about the answers on waterboard something >> rick perry said he would defend waterboarding till the day he died which was not only a return to the bush policy but with an enthusiasm that seems out of touch where the country is and certainly w

consulate in benghazi, libya. >> there are more questions that came out of last night. because the vice president directly contradicted the sworn testimony of state department officialings. he's doubling down on denial. gwen: so karen, is this coming down to a game of who do you trust? >> i think it is. and it's also coming down to a game of how each one of them defines the other. and with mitt romney, i think we've seen something pretty extraordinary over the last week and a half. starting the day before the last debate. where he is once again sort of very visibly kind of trying to position himself at least in tone and in emphasis, much more toward the middle. gwen: jeff, is this part of the overall strategy for both sides to do this? not to position to the middle but to find some key way of driving in and making the point that they -- that the other guy is not working? >> it is. and it's -- everything that's happening right now is about leadership. i mean, we're talking about benghazi and we're talking about the foreign policy. but really, what governor romney and con

on the libya, benghazi dispute, peter, we saw them fighting about nuance, about active terror, whether the president says it was an act of terror, or terrorism. yet there was another argument to be made about whether the u.s. had done all it could to protect the citizens on the ground there. that's not the argument we saw. >> it wasn't. you're right. the voter who asked the question, and this was a town hall-style debate, asked why -- who made the decision not to provide more security when it was requested and why and the president didn't answer. he did say, i take ultimate responsibility. what happened there was my responsibility. but he didn't really answer that question. instead it became as you say a semantic debate. a terrorist act. it kind of got lost i think. governor romney's larger point is that the administration didn't really own up to what really happened in benghazi until a number of days and weeks had passed and attributed it too much to this idea of a pro test which now seems not to have happened over this antiislam video. and president obama was able to sort of like der

what happens in libya stays in libya. libya was a very unusual circumstance. small crinlt. incompetent army. incompetent rebels. that's one reason this took so long. >> and what started as a humanitarian crisis. gwen: which didn't happen. >> close to europe. britain and france got exorcised about it. arab league approved it. the security council approved it. none of this has happened but it does set up a future dilemma for the obama administration. having said we are willing to commit limited force in a multilateral way if a humanitarian disaster is going to happen, well, what happens if the syrian government says we're finally going to move on homs and -- >> and you have what appears to be a humanitarian -- >> exactly. >> and mrs. clinton said again, every place is different. we'll have to make an individual decision. >> but it does set a precedent. >> it does. a half precedent. >> does the success of this suggest to the administration that there may be some ways to deal with those other three that they haven't been prepared to do up to now? >> well, i think certainly they

the people of egypt, libya, yemen, and tunisia did not trade the tyranny of a dictator for the tyranny of a mob. gwen: but the protests have spread as this google map shows. throughout the middle east and beyond. you can look and see -- it's pakistan, in london, it's everywhere all over the region and beyond. what happened in benghazi was tragic, but is this something that had been building for some time, david? or was this just the spark? >> gwen, i think it was the flip side of these revolutions that we all watched with sauch maysment and such enthusiasm in some cases in january and february of last year. you know, at the time of those uprising, president obama said what was remarkable about the arab spring was that it wasn't about us, it was about them. it was about throwing avenue old dictators. well, whenever you traveled through the region there wasals -- always -- was always still a little bit of an undercurrent of about us, whether we were supporting democracy or imposing our values. this week it really became about us because these awful videos that you've seen were really wha