charlie: was it section seven that allowed the united states to do and europe to do what they did in libya? robert: exactly. the russians went ahead thinking it would be military action only to prevent the assault on benghazi. they were then upset that the united states and european countries used that same un security council resolution to help libyan rebels overthrow moammar qaddafi. they said that was not the intent of the resolution. charlie: and the russians haven't done very much in the fight against isis either. their huge emphasis and strong intervention, their huge emphasis, has been on the rebels fighting assad, not the islamic state. they have left that to us and our allies. i bet the french and belgians have hit the islamic state by air more often than the russians have. derek: i completely agree. this idea that we are going to partner with russia to fight isis is a fool's errand. we have not heard the trump administration talk about that much recently. it was discussed in the campaign, but i don't think russia has any real interest in working with us against isis. they want to

it is between italy and libya.

. >> look at libya. we kill the dictator and -- >> the knights of columbus will come in and form communities. there will be little platoons of democracy. and then that and that. but if you have social trust, deep institutions, you can just as easily get chaos. this is something we talk about in the grand strategy class. a lot of how you see this sort of thing happening is dependent on your view of human nature. if you believe that people are naturally cooperative, you are not going to worry too much. about order. but if you are like machiavelli, who had a cynical view of human nature, that people are ungrateful, the issue of human order nature is on your mind. and if you don't do it, society can be very nasty. >> where do you think that obama is in all of this? >> i think that he has a few about how barbarous human beings can become. we do not have an apparatus in our government that does this enough and we have the military, obviously, blowing people up and blowing things up. we have foreign aid doing g

libya is a disaster, and no one has criticized her for that. bernie really laid low on that. >> her strengths are her ability to take a problem set before her and figure out what the various components are and tried to figure out a way to solve it. joe: the problem is, she sometimes comes up with the wrong answer, in syria and libya. every bit as much a disaster. >> as obama made clear on his interview with charlie this week. lisa: that is not particularly valued this year, in this year of antiestablishment, people do not want problem-solving and low policy changes. >> she knew more about this stuff and all of the candidates put together. >> if we have is of the campaign in the fall, which all three of you say is highly likely, personal and full of insults, someone will win. probably hillary clinton. and campaigns make a difference as far as your capacity to govern. and i will be a real problem for the next president. >> there are significant problems facing this country. al: it will be more like the clinton foundation or trump scandals. ration

two, libya. somehow, he feels like the united states or the security council, that they pulled one over on him and that those two things have influenced his own mind. >> i say couple of things about that. first of all, it is a bad analysis to think that this has to do with syria. i just think that's wrong. >> you mean he is too savvy to read that into it? >> this is more fundamental. this is an important aspect of what he regards as the russian sphere of influence. he has tried in his mind to reconstruct or construct this eurasian union, a counterweight to the european union. but without ukraine, it's impossible. on libya and kosovo, it's important. i don't think it's historical. i think he is principally driven by this ideological posture and his political needs at home. that's first. but on the foreign policy side, i have actually sat with him and had this conversation where he will say he will take you in a conversation from kosovo to iraq to afghanistan to libya. and you get to syria and this

>> there were steps taken in a number of countries, in libya for example. some steps in different ways could be taken with respect to syria. nobody takes into account what happens in libya now. it's what was done and it's finished. what's necessary is to have the firmness and determination to act. why is this determination not there? there are sanctions, but nothing much is happening here. people die, people leave their country, there is no remedy for them. this is a humanitarian drama. chemical weapons, yes, but it is the delay tactics. i'm not fooled by the chemical weapons issue. 2000 people die as a result of a chemical weapons attack? that's considered a crime. on the other hand you have almost 200,000 people who have been killed by conventional weapons and that's totally different. if the result of a crime is death, then it is a crime. i'm not saying i disagree with chemical weapons. of course we need to do something against them, but why don't we act against conventional weapons? barrel bombs, chemical weapons, artillery, they are all used to kill pe

i said to myself, what other kind of extremists are there in libya? certainly not catholic extremist. only islamic extremist. >> it is said that you took up about 50% of the memo. that is a lot. >> it is a lot. >> the warnings don't seem to sound -- you said, look, we try to warn them in cairo and in benghazi. >> i think it is probably a little over half of what i took out was the warning language. there was other stuff that i took out that if we had in front of us, i could walk you through each one. i will say this -- the talking points were not very good at the end. they were not very rich, they were not very robust. they were not great talking points. when dave petraeus saw them, he was the last one to put eyes on them. when he saw them, he said, these are not very good. >> did petraeus try to pull it back? >> no. >> he said, these are not very good. >> this is with his warnings taken out? did he ask you to justify that? >> was interesting is that when the chief of staff gave me the document and i reacted to the warning language, he never told me t

i think president putin feels that the united states abused the process in libya. he reminds us every moment. there is a long list of things. what we need to do is find a way for president putin have an opportunity to meet the demands of the united nations security council. live up to his obligations under the minsk agreement. charlie: that is what he says he wants to do. john kerry: that is what you test. my job in diplomacy is to try to take what someone says and test whether it is something real. particularly when you are looking for an outcome that is structured and peaceful and productive. you will have to find find some -- you'll have to find some road that is not perfect. but that finds a way to get there. in the case of president putin, he says that he is prepared to be a part of the solution with respect to syria. everybody doubted whether russia would play any constructive role whatsoever with respect to the cessation of hostilities. charlie: and? john kerry we got a cessation of : hostilities. notwithstanding. because they play a positive role. if they h

libya, korea. the south china sea. still afghanistan. charlie: are the talib and continuing to make gains? john kerry: they have made some gains. it is fair to say that the afghan army has also indicated great capacity to stand his ground and fight. they are learning and getting better. charlie: turning quickly to china. including great fears how to protect nuclear weapons among countries that hold them. are the chinese prepared to help us with respect to north korea? kerry: they have helped recently. the un security council resolution where he had a standoff for a. of time, china evaluated it very carefully. they moved quite significantly and so we have a much tougher resolution than we ever have before. now the trick is to make sure that it is fully implemented. we are working on the implementation. i believe there is possibly still more china could do. i think president obama feels that way also. china is the key. china has the lifeline financial relationship to north korea. the lifeline geographical situation. the lifeline on fuel. t

charlie: you were brought into question in libya. andrew: i went to libya. i had wanted to go and i applied as myself. i was told i would meet the libyan representation at the u.n. and they would help me get in. i could not get in. i also have a british passport. i have a friend leading an archaeological survey. instead, i went as a british christian archaeologist. when i did that, i got my visa, i arrived in tripoli, and i was assigned the head of the international press office, an organization to keeping the international press at bay. it was the most dreary of the police states that i visited. i have not visited north korea. more grim than the soviet union, post-tiananmen china. i was called in everyday to meet with the people of the international press office. they would question me. they knew everything i have been doing. they would come back to me with conversations i had with people the day before. i kept trying to get an appointment to go to the gaddafi compound. then i went to a meeting. it was a meeting of basic people's congresses. halfway through

charlie: let's take libya. we have a lot of tribes there a government is trying to support, but it is not sure. what can they do for stability? we are engaged with the battle against isis in libya. scott: libya is a great example of what happened. libya is one of the so-called artificial states. it was created along with iraq and syria. charlie: when we say who created them, clearly it was the brits. and the french. scott: in libya's case, the italians. so you join together with these lands that under the ottomans had largely very little to do with one another. they joined together these artificial states, and for a long time, at the end of world war ii, things kind of went along. they had these western allied monarchs. and then in the late 1940's, early 1950's, you start seeing these totalitarian regimes come into power, dictators. syria, iraq, gaddafi in libya. so really what those strong individuals, along with looking out for their own power, was they were trying to create a national identity in places that

charlie: for your arab eyes in libya -- who are your arab eyes in libya? scott: an amazing young man from a coastal city, about 100 miles from tripoli. he has this amazing story. he was an air force cadet in the gaddafi air force when the revolution started in libya. he and his fellow cadets, 18 and 19-year-old students were kept in quarantined for 18 months. while the country was being torn apart, the west was doing airstrikes, he had no idea what was happening in his country. all he had been hearing was from ,he regime that is western western paid mercenaries and criminals who are doing this. months, gaddafi's military people came to him and said, we need to do a special patriotic mission. go back to this stronghold of the rebellion and find out who the rebel leaders are and identify the force so we can kill them. crossed nohis. he man's land, went back to his hometown only to discover that everybody was the rebels. everything he had been told for three months was a lie, even his own family was with the rebellion. so he did this kind of amazing he wasgai

there was less risk of them fracturing the way they had in libya or they had in libya or the when he had in iraq. i think it was a different story. but that is looking backwards, let's look forwards. i think "the washington post" op-ed today which was very interesting, it is one of the reasons why secretary clinton last fall came out and said it is really time for a no-fly zone. it really time for a no-fly zone to stop the kind of activity that the syrian military is doing. charlie: barrel bombs and some were saying chlorine gas. mike: chlorine gas, etc. etc. she is saying it not only to protect the lives of those innocent people, but even more importantly because like i said earlier, that syrian civil war is causing national security issues for the united states of america. as long as it exists, extremism will flourish in the middle east in syria and iraq, and the risk to the united states and those extremists reaching out and attacking us and our interests is going to remain. what is happening in aleppo is a national security issue for the united states of america and that is what

that to e-mail colleagues had been killed in libya. ofdenly, i was sort overwhelmed by all of what had gone on in libya. it all just sort of hit me in that moment. i said, i don't want to spend the next year looking at photos of the next decade. i wanted to write. i was meeting with literary agents and it just seemed right. charlie: >> take me to the moment where you are lying face down any soldiers say, shoot them. lynsey: we had been covering the front line. it was shifting quickly. there were four of us. at that moment, it was silent. it is always the initial moments of the kidnapping that are most aggressive. they pulled everyone out of the car. i put my head in my lap and was trying to figure out what to do. it was a moment where i thought, i can make it go away. i eventually crawled to the right, where my colleagues had jumped out. started running across the street. in that moment, the rebels we had been covering started shooting at kadhafi's troops. we were caught in a wall of bullets. we made a run for it. we went to a cement b

this is what we are trying to do about libya, the countries around libya, to secure this country together. we have to face the problems, and we have to work together. we are able to control it and we will control it to give the business community more security and stability. we reached a stage in africa where almost you can count a few problematic areas. in northern africa, things have affected the arab countries in the north. but we -- you have countries that have volunteered. which we are working on in two months' time, we will have taken the principle of african problems and african solutions. we are on the basis of that taking a decision that we will not allow any insecurity in the continent. we are taking that upon ourselves. that in itself is an important story the world should know. thank you. >> on behalf of everyone, this audience, i appreciate your enthusiasm. i especially appreciate the summit on africa that we hear from africans and african leaders, and you have given that to us. i thank each of you. the president, i'm sure, will convey the same sense of appreciation when he c

mike: and what happened on its own in libya. and we want to make that transition, keeping the syrian military and security services keeping them intact. charlie: essentially what putin wants. mike: you don't want to destroy those things. here's what i think you want to do. i think you want to cowvertly, not openly, but cowvertly but want them to know, you want to tell the moderate opposition that you supporting to go after -- this is a big deal -- to go after the iranians and they have to pay a price, just like we made the russians pay a price. we have to make them pay a price. we have to make them want to go home. we have to make them want to have a deal. that's number one. charlie: how do we do that? mike: give the moderate opposition weapons. charlie: what is it they want that they don't have? mike: i'm not a military guy. i give them the things they need to go after the assaad government but also to have the iranians and russians pay a little price. when we were in iraq, the iranians were giving weapons to the shia militia w

the red line was crossed of given thead, experience in libya of regime change there, and that syria is a much larger country with a much larger population why would we think that that would be? >> you can ask the question that was being asked back then, should there be military one ofntion in syria? the question asked was what the serial look like it there isn't intervention? yet yeah and inaction has consequences. we saw iraq. iraq was falling apart. islamic state in iraq was growing in power. there was going to be a vacuum in syria and that vacuum eventually was going to be held. we all talked activists in the beginning were warning about the ideas of the revolution. they warned in 2011 2012 the very beginning. >> that the ideology humans themselves to become more radicalized. that notion of tolerance and forgiving and keeping the nation together. our number one searing your drowning in barely breathe and you're about to go down and you're reaching for someone and no one is there and then someone leaves over and gives you there and then you look at him and think i don't like will giv

libya, significant oil that is going to come off of libya in 2015. republicans are likely to press against iran. if prices are low, you start to see people and consumers doing better. consumption increases. that increases demand. i'm not an oil price watcher. if you ask me, projections for russia over 2015 should not be baking in $50 oil or lower. >> more than $60. >> more than $60. >> what are political ramifications, even though you set in the short term he is still popular. >> short-term is longer. there is a lot of wishful thinking. you put the sanctions against him, these 10 different sanctions. his approval ratings have stayed in the 80's. they were 88% in october. there is a large demand in russia for someone to stand up and tell the west, we have had enough. putin has been saying that. oil at $50 is a problem for putin. oil at $50 and sanctions where he can scapegoat the west and the ukraine is a better narrative. if russia, if this was just an economic crisis. with very few countries that have large economies, we would be talking about it. w

, because what you have in libya now is increasing force of isis? hillary clinton: in one part of libya. let me address that. it's a totally fair question. qaddafi had american blood on his hands. qaddafi was a threat to the broader region. our european and arab friends saw him as that, and as you say, he was promising to track down his own people and killed them like cockroaches. my point was, with his demise, there was a coalition that rose up. they did hold elections. they were prepared to begin forming a government, and there was a lot of pressure coming at them from extremists in all directions. some of the old attitudes, like the split between tripoli and benghazi, i believe that right now there is an ongoing effort by the u.n. and others to try to form a unity government. to try to get people once again to get back to working together. the problem is, we see advances by isis -- they are not the only terrorist group, but isis claims that they have now really taken control of qaddafi's hometown. one of the ways we need to approach this is conti

libya. you were a strong, if not the proponent of the u.s. and others going to protect benghazi at a time that it faced almost certain attack by qaddafi. was that a mistake when you look at what has happened since? hillary clinton: first of all, it is important to remember that the libyans themselves helped -- held two successful free and fair elections. the libyan people rose to the occasion. they voted for moderate. and then, unfortunately, there was a lot going on in the region that was not necessarily in the control of anybody. it had a big impact on libya. charlie: i have two questions about that. first question, is there some lesson we need to learn, maybe equitable -- maybe applicable to syria, you do not want chaos or circumstance in libya, because what you have in libya now is increasing force of isis? hillary clinton: in one part of libya. let me address that. it's a totally or question. qaddafi had american blood on his hands. qaddafi was a threat to the broader region. arab friendsand saw him as that, and as you say, he was promis

host: look at libya, it is a terrorist haven. i guess the overall point is post-assad, why do we think that syria will look better than iraq or libya? >> he is terrible. isis is certainly somebody that cannot take leadership, that is why we need to destroy isis and that is why what is happening right now with the direction of this president is not for -- host: we like an american -- >> i think we need 65 nations and more -- host: different than what is in iraq? >> i think we need a major that we end the civil war and do not allow an assad-like regime that is not kill its own people and we need to make sure -- to the syrian people so that they cannot face consequences of death. host: i tried very hard to pin you down on donald trump. and you very artfully made it hard in many ways. i will ask you again. this is no longer just one month or two months, he for six months has led. and he is about 20 points ahead of everybody. he is going to stay for a while. how much is he hurting the party? >> i think his policies are dead wrong. the

. >> i'll ask the overarching question of libya. what lessons have you learned from that adventure in libya? >> i think you hearken back to -- you break it, you own it. we did such a light thing. we never owned it. we just broke in. it is sad. i think if you're going to go in to a nation like this, i don't think we should. i didn't understand what our national interests were there. i thought the legal argument that was forth by the state department was incredibly weak. i think our desire for these countries to spring from nowhere, i think we have learned that it doesn't exist. >> that is the lesson from iraq? >> that is the lesson. the way we wish things to be is not the way that it is. we have learned a great deal from iraq and libya. let me turn to russia. the ruble is plummeting. the pipeline had to be canceled. the economy is going into a recession. oil prices are dropping. is this going to make putin moderate, aggressive, or go the other way? >> i think it's going to be more aggressive. the speech he gave this week was more str

imagine what his problems are facing libya and what yesterday with. all of us have to stand by them. i worry about my challenges, and then i think about what he has to go through. >> i will turn to the palestinian issue, but before that, the refugee question. you have 1.5 million refugees. >> 1.5 million refugees, over 20% of our population in the past year and a half. almost 90% are outside of refugee camps. only a very small portion in the refugee camps and the rest are across the country. it has affected our health care, our school systems. we have regressed to going back to double-shifts. >> what is the economic measurement of this? >> your country has been so gracious and so magnanimous in helping us out with its aid program. so please, my appreciation to the united states. i wish the rest of the international community could be as helpful. but this year's budget, the donor aid only cover something like 29%. we still have a shortfall of $1.9 billion just to cover the refugees. >> and this is a responsibility that you did not ask for. who should s

egypt launched airstrikes in libya yesterday. the attack was in retaliation for the beheading of 21 christian egyptian hostages. the killings raised concern that isis is expanding its global footprint. in geneva, international powers have entered a decisive phase in nuclear negotiation. they are slated to reach a framework agreement in march and a final agreement in june. iran's supreme leader remarked last week that no deal is better than a bad deal. american politicians have said the same thing. i'm pleased to have mike morell back at this table. welcome. mike: good to be here. charlie: someone said to me, there is a sense that somebody's got to come together. the isis and the extent of their footprint is much more troubling than anybody ever imagined. tell me how you see isis today based on what we just saw in egypt, i mean in libya, paris, copenhagen, iraq, and syria. what is the challenge here and what kind of response is demanded and what is the context? mike: let's first start in iraq itself. we've been at this now, the un

in the case of libya, the libyan government. it is this sense of consistency in dealing with the two governments, who should bear the primary responsibility in dealing with this threat. we should increase their level of training and equipment that they use. and when they need further resources, then it could be evaluated, a decision could be taken of how to do that. it is important always to do that within the of international legitimacy. this is what brings us to the united nations. charlie: international legitimacy. a resolution that says what? mr. shoukry: to lift the restrictions on the libyan government so that they can procure the necessary equipment so that they can provide security for the libyan people and address the challenge of the terrorist organizations. also, a more stringent blockade to avoid this continuing flow of military equipment to the terrorist militias operating in libya. the militias should disband and those who are occupying tripoli should relinquish that occupation. charlie: if they don't? mr. shoukry:

the security council expressed support for libya. joining me now is the egyptian foreign minister, sameh shoukry. i am pleased to have him on this program. you are here at your president's request to do what? to get what kind of resolution? mr. shoukry: primarily to present a draft resolution to the council that is supported by the arab group in new york to provide the necessary facilities to the legitimate government in libya to counter the terrorist threat that is escalating on libyan soil. to reiterate the international community's commitment to support the people of the libyan legitimate government and the fighting of terror by the provisions of assistance military training, and capacity building and to rise to the responsibility. the situation in libya was a result of the vacuum that was created after the initial military intervention by nato. the job wasn't complete. i think we should be more resolute to be able to impact this terrorist threat. charlie: obviously, isis is just one of many militant groups in power. how strong ar

could doff the in libya. -- qaddafi in libya. a system had been locked in place with big men. these systems ran the government, ran these societies and they were deeply flawed people were under educated. deep-rooted conspiracy theories and a lot of ignorance, ethnic and religious hatred under the surface but it was contained by these regimes. charlie: we will take care of the politics. richard: you surrender your right to complain, and we will take care of you. they were paternalistic. and they infantilized people which the people grew to present. the image i keep returning to his of old rowhouses. you think of these old rowhouses. they are beautiful to look at. they are rotten on the inside. they contain the rot, which is good. but by not opening the doors and not cleaning up, and having no democratic challenge they get worse and worse. this is where it begins. this point where you have this system of these rowhouses. charlie: where are we in time? richard: from 1967 until 2003. that. that i arrived in trying to be a journalist. i lived it. like i said, these houses you could

the challenges that egypt is facing, the challenges we are all facing in libya. the absence of a resolution to that israeli conflict and the rights of the palestinians to statehood, and the people of the region to have peace and security, all of these are components. at the end of the day you have to have religious authority around the world representing all religions. but discredit these extremists and terrorists, and dispel what they tried to promote in terms of extremist ideology. we have to have more initiatives such as the ones taken by jordan and his majesty over the years by talking together in interfaith dialogue, initiatives that bring harmony and coexistence to the world. it is a multiple track, multiple faceted effort that has to continue. this is how you fight the ideological fight. presenting a more convincing fight. charlie: there has never been more urgency than there has been now especially in the wake of what happened in libya and what happened to your pilot. nasser: these ugly incidents brought on the fact you are dealing with a brutal enemy. th

i think there will be more attempts in libya and syria and iraq. charlie: who's been tougher on cracking down on dissent than mubarak was. richard: i'm not saying this is a good thing. the people in the regions, a lot of them will embrace the strongmen because if you live in aleppo or a suburb of damascus, there's no food, there's a checkpoint from a militant wearing a ski mask in front of your house. you can't sustain that forever. your kids are going to school. there's no power. there's no gas. you will reach out to someone who offers an easy solution. dictators offer easy solutions. charlie: let's talk about three things. you becoming a foreign correspondent. what are the critical qualities of being a good correspondent? let's assume it is beyond a capacity to go days and days without sleep. it is also an element of courage. but what else? richard: i think you have to believe in it. charlie: you learn the language. richard: this is what i want to do. it is who i am. it is not a job. it is my life. and that's what i want to do. some people, they